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Im_the_Juggernaut_Beotch

Fix the ricochet of AP shells.

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I setup a training room for my Cleveland to target  different destroyers.   I used tier 5 and 6  DDs,  just to see how effective the 150mm shells on the Cleveland will preform.  As expected they did much damage w/ HE shells.   But with AP shell,  I notice most,  I mean F-ing most of the shell ricocheted off the DDs  - wth!!!

This is total B-S.

PS   AP shells are pretty much "useless" now

Too many - Ricochets,  non-penetrations, torp belt deflections and last but not the least OVER PENETRATION!!!

 

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Why on earth would you want to fire AP at a DD lols

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33 minutes ago, Im_the_Juggernaut_Beotch said:

I setup a training room for my Cleveland to target  different destroyers.   I used tier 5 and 6  DDs,  just to see how effective the 150mm shells on the Cleveland will preform.  As expected they did much damage w/ HE shells.   But with AP shell,  I notice most,  I mean F-ing most of the shell ricocheted off the DDs  - wth!!!

This is total B-S.

PS   AP shells are pretty much "useless" now

Too many - Ricochets,  non-penetrations, torp belt deflections and last but not the least OVER PENETRATION!!!

 

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Armor_Penetration#Armor-Piercing

Cleveland has 152mm guns, meaning her AP will only overmatch 10mm armor or less (152/14.3=10.6). This means it is only capable of overmatching up to tier V DDs, which would normally only be encountered in a fail division. For plating of greater than 10mm thickness, it follows the same rules as any other AP. The link gives full details, but for ships without improved AP angles:

90 (bow in) to 60 degrees: the shell will always bounce.

60-45 degrees: shell has a chance to ricochet.

45-0 (completely broadside) degrees: The shell will not ricochet. However, it can still shatter if the shell doesn’t have enough penetration, or overpen if the armor is thin and the shell can pass through before the shell fuse arms (which is quite likely with DDs).

CL caliber AP is incredibly useful if you use it against the correct targets: cruiser and BB superstructures and broadside cruisers at short-to-medium range. I’ve done nasty things even with the 127mm AP of Flint and American destroyers against these targets at close range.

Edited by Nevermore135
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  1. The reason why you get HE is so you can reliably damage angled ships
  2. If you're going to be stubborn with AP on an angled target, shoot the superstructure
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5 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Armor_Penetration#Armor-Piercing

Cleveland has 152mm guns, meaning her AP will only overmatch 10mm armor or less (152/14.3=10.6). This means it is only capable of overmatching up to tier V DDs, which would normally only be encountered in a fail division. For plating of greater than 10mm thickness, it follows the same rules as any other AP. The link gives full details, but for ships without improved AP angles:

90 (bow in) to 60 degrees: the shell will always bounce.

60-45 degrees: shell has a chance to ricochet.

45-0 (completely broadside) degrees: The shell will not ricochet. However, it can still shatter if the shell doesn’t have enough penetration, or overpen if the armor is thin and the shell can pass through before the shell fuse arms (which is quite likely with DDs).

CL caliber AP is incredibly useful if you use it against the correct targets: cruiser and BB superstructures and broadside cruisers at short-to-medium range. I’ve done nasty things even with the 127mm AP of Flint and American destroyers against these targets at close range.

Thank you for your logical response.

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You should, quite literally, never be firing AP at DDs unless you're in tallin, riga, or petropavlovsk, whose HE is damn near useless. AKA, you're doing it wrong. I do agree that AP has been really unreliable, though. Mostly in the form of citadel overpens on broadside cruisers, because those same cruisers will bounce those same shells if they angle. Fortunately, a lot of the non-damage pens will probably be fixed with the new changes being made to modules and such. 

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19 minutes ago, EraserNZ1 said:

Why on earth would you want to fire AP at a DD lols

This unless it is the Khab.

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1 hour ago, Im_the_Juggernaut_Beotch said:

I setup a training room for my Cleveland to target  different destroyers.   I used tier 5 and 6  DDs,  just to see how effective the 150mm shells on the Cleveland will preform.  As expected they did much damage w/ HE shells.   But with AP shell,  I notice most,  I mean F-ing most of the shell ricocheted off the DDs  - wth!!!

This is total B-S.

PS   AP shells are pretty much "useless" now

Too many - Ricochets,  non-penetrations, torp belt deflections and last but not the least OVER PENETRATION!!!

 

the first mistake you made was firing AP at DDs, no one in their right mind fires AP at DDs unless youre in the RN CLs, because they only have AP or in a BB that isnt RN because of the long reload, plus its light cruiser AP, that stuff doesnt overmatch much

Edited by tcbaker777

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If I switch during a game with a BB between HE and AP, I almost always have the wrong shell loaded.  Loading HE, oh, look its now presenting a nice fat broadside.  Loading AP, nope, head on.  I can't win if I'm switching.

I did noticed (T6) in a 10 game test that I averaged about 12k more damage if I stuck to AP over HE.

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1 hour ago, Wowzery said:

If I switch during a game with a BB between HE and AP, I almost always have the wrong shell loaded.  Loading HE, oh, look its now presenting a nice fat broadside.  Loading AP, nope, head on.  I can't win if I'm switching.

I did noticed (T6) in a 10 game test that I averaged about 12k more damage if I stuck to AP over HE.

general rule for bbs is you fire what's in the barrel (at least at dds) because you overmatch their armour giving you guaranteed pens (mostly overpens though) but that's still 10 % damage that you have, instead of waiting for the reload.

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2 hours ago, Wowzery said:

If I switch during a game with a BB between HE and AP, I almost always have the wrong shell loaded.  Loading HE, oh, look its now presenting a nice fat broadside.  Loading AP, nope, head on.  I can't win if I'm switching.

I did noticed (T6) in a 10 game test that I averaged about 12k more damage if I stuck to AP over HE.

I had that trouble in Pommern in ranked.

I ended that problem by selecting the commander skill for reloading between shell types. It cuts the time from 35 seconds down to something fast enough to be worth using.

The RN Leander is only AP but she is a DD killer and also can take out squishy CL, CA etc. Even crit crappy BB's like the Lion. (What are you doing? Dont bring a Lion to the battle ever..) The same can be said for certain cruisers. Crit them to nothing really fast. Now some cruisers like the Alaska are a real problem and require a bag of tricks to set up a ambush with torps if possible.

You will find that I have done enough battles with the Leander to know which ships not to shoot at. Those are the ones who get torps instead. IF I can get the situation set up properly against these.Example, If I catch Mr Big with all of his turrets facing away plinking at someone on the far side, then I can go ahead and torp him from close up. Usually his secondaries are not that big of a problem. I do not like to bring the Leander into the middle of the enemy she does not have the hull for that.

Edited by xHeavy

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American 6" AP has a time and place. Usually it's at sub-5km ranges against the broadside of a battleship or a cruiser. Do not fire it at angled ships.

 

 

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God I hope whoever designed this game NEVER has to fight a real naval battle.  Ships NEVER use HE against other ships.  Always AP.  Why?  Because it works.

This arcade game just cracks me up sometimes.

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On 9/6/2020 at 6:01 PM, Im_the_Juggernaut_Beotch said:

I setup a training room for my Cleveland to target  different destroyers.   I used tier 5 and 6  DDs,  just to see how effective the 150mm shells on the Cleveland will preform.  As expected they did much damage w/ HE shells.   But with AP shell,  I notice most,  I mean F-ing most of the shell ricocheted off the DDs  - wth!!!

This is total B-S.

PS   AP shells are pretty much "useless" now

Too many - Ricochets,  non-penetrations, torp belt deflections and last but not the least OVER PENETRATION!!!

 

Yeah, armor penetration is one of the more annoying game mechanics.  Overmatch against the bow doesn't make sense, because a 460mm shell will punch right through a bow at 20 km, but that same bow will bounce a 457mm shell fired from 4 km.  And, even ignoring historical reality, if you look at how the ships are designed, with heavy armor on the sides, and main guns arranged with the expectation of firing broadsides if you want all guns to bear, bow tanking shouldn't even be a thing.  A ship is several times longer than it is wide, so hitting it bow or stern on should be easier and more deadly ("crossing the T" anyone?) than trying to hit its broadside.  But the only explanation is, "It's an arcade game, not a simulation."  Fair enough, I suppose, but not very satisfying.

Edited by zubalkabir
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On 9/6/2020 at 10:26 PM, TobTorp said:

general rule for bbs is you fire what's in the barrel (at least at dds) because you overmatch their armour giving you guaranteed pens (mostly overpens though) but that's still 10 % damage that you have, instead of waiting for the reload.

.... and 10% of the damage for an AP shell that is generally more than 2x the damage value of an HE shell, is only a bit less than the 33% of the damage for the HE shell anyway.  Its definitely not worth the reload wait.

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21 minutes ago, SeaborneSumo said:

God I hope whoever designed this game NEVER has to fight a real naval battle.  Ships NEVER use HE against other ships.  Always AP.  Why?  Because it works.

This arcade game just cracks me up sometimes.

Well, I can prove you wrong, because you obviously have no knowledge.

Akizuki-class didn't have AP shells. There was only the Type 0 HE shell for this 100mm gun.

In the Naval battle of Guadalcanal, Teruzuki (Akizuki-class) shot some 160 rounds of it against 1 cruiser and 6 DDs, of which 1 DD was sunk and 5 were rendered combat ineffective.

 

In a related story, I don't quite remember if it was Graf Spee or Scharnhorst, but they had issues sinking merchant vessels quickly with their 283mm guns and had to resort to using torpedoes.

Edited by MrDeaf

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Without Overmatch advantage, you have to be very judicious in when and how you use AP against the hull.

All High Tier DDs have a minimum standard of 19mm hull armor.  in that link above you need 272mm+ sized AP shells to Overmatch.  Once you can Overmatch a target's armor section, when struck the AP will not have to go through any Bounce Checks.

 

General rule with typical Cruisers is that you don't want to use AP against a DD, it's a big waste.  Tech Tree RNCL AP shells and Italian Cruiser SAP shells different beasts entirely and are gimmicked up to be very dangerous for DDs.

 

Some other general AP and Armor stuff, not necessarily with Cruiser against DD:

Another thing some sly players do to troll an attacker is they'll bait showing some sides a bit... Get you to fire your AP salvo at a seemingly juicy side.  However:

- Sometimes when you're scoped in on a target, it may look like you got a side shot, but in reality there's a big chance to bounce.

- If the range and expected shell travel time is just right, the player can turn into the AP salvo just enough.  When the shells were fired the opportunity looked good, but by the time they hit, the bounce angle became real bad.  This is a pretty common troll tactic that even Battleships do with each other.

 

The above is a very old Flamu video from 2016.  The game has changed a lot since then, but armor angling, Overmatch, bounce angles have remained the same.

The video is linked to an engagement where Flamu's Nagato is in a brawl against a Colorado player (17:41 time stamp in case the direct link doesn't work).  Both BBs feature 16" guns that easily Overmatch each other's bows. 

Flamu demonstrates his 410mm AP Overmatching Colorado's bow.

He also shows how he baits his own vulnerable bow, but maneuvers where the chance to Overmatch by the Colorado player disappears while the shells are in flight.  The shells instead of landing on the vulnerable bow instead land on his well angled hull.  This is done in a close ranged brawl, and the BB is still nimble enough to do such a thing.  If the engagement was further out, there would be even more time to maneuver and troll the same way.

This is something you need to know as a BB player, especially when fighting against another BB that has guns that Overmatch your armor.  Even then there's lot of variables in place, i.e. is the armor along your midsection going to get Overmatched?  No amount of angling will save you, i.e. BBs with 32mm deck armor and upper belt getting Overmatched by 460mm+ AP.

RIP.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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On 9/6/2020 at 6:32 PM, amazinglyaverage said:

only brit CL and some DDs can provide consistent AP damage against destroyers

I devstruck a DD with AP yesterday...in a ROMA!!! Dern near wet myself laughing.

Consistent? No - I usually can’t hit a DD in a Roma.

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1 hour ago, MrDeaf said:

Well, I can prove you wrong, because you obviously have no knowledge.

Akizuki-class didn't have AP shells. There was only the Type 0 HE shell for this 100mm gun.

In the Naval battle of Guadalcanal, Teruzuki (Akizuki-class) shot some 160 rounds of it against 1 cruiser and 6 DDs, of which 1 DD was sunk and 5 were rendered combat ineffective.

In a related story, I don't quite remember if it was Graf Spee or Scharnhorst, but they had issues sinking merchant vessels quickly with their 283mm guns and had to resort to using torpedoes.

So you found an exception to the RULE and say I'm wrong.  25 years in the navy, Father and Uncle in the Navy during WWII.  Interviewed many survivors from BBs sunk at Pearl Harbor, along with dozens of other Naval officers,,, plus 2 stints at the Naval War College.  So,,,,, you were saying I have no knowledge.

AP is the rule in ship vs ship gun battles.

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16 minutes ago, SeaborneSumo said:

So you found an exception to the RULE and say I'm wrong.  25 years in the navy, Father and Uncle in the Navy during WWII.  Interviewed many survivors from BBs sunk at Pearl Harbor, along with dozens of other Naval officers,,, plus 2 stints at the Naval War College.  So,,,,, you were saying I have no knowledge.

AP is the rule in ship vs ship gun battles.

HE was used against ships in certain circumstances. Look at Taffy 3 for another example, part of the reason the US DD's lasted as long as they did was due to the Japanese thinking they were larger ships and firing AP which was failing to fuse properly against such small ships. Once they realized they were DDs, they did switch to HE that was more effective.

 

You're correct that against most cruisers and battleships, loading HE to fire at their opposite numbers would be normally be an act of desperation but against lighter targets, it was sometimes called for.

 

 

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On 9/6/2020 at 6:34 PM, Nevermore135 said:

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Armor_Penetration#Armor-Piercing

Cleveland has 152mm guns, meaning her AP will only overmatch 10mm armor or less (152/14.3=10.6). This means it is only capable of overmatching up to tier V DDs, which would normally only be encountered in a fail division. For plating of greater than 10mm thickness, it follows the same rules as any other AP. The link gives full details, but for ships without improved AP angles:

90 (bow in) to 60 degrees: the shell will always bounce.

60-45 degrees: shell has a chance to ricochet.

45-0 (completely broadside) degrees: The shell will not ricochet. However, it can still shatter if the shell doesn’t have enough penetration, or overpen if the armor is thin and the shell can pass through before the shell fuse arms (which is quite likely with DDs).

CL caliber AP is incredibly useful if you use it against the correct targets: cruiser and BB superstructures and broadside cruisers at short-to-medium range. I’ve done nasty things even with the 127mm AP of Flint and American destroyers against these targets at close range.

Succinct, helpful, and zero salt. Very commendable. 

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2 hours ago, MrDeaf said:

Well, I can prove you wrong, because you obviously have no knowledge.

Akizuki-class didn't have AP shells. There was only the Type 0 HE shell for this 100mm gun.

In the Naval battle of Guadalcanal, Teruzuki (Akizuki-class) shot some 160 rounds of it against 1 cruiser and 6 DDs, of which 1 DD was sunk and 5 were rendered combat ineffective.

 

In a related story, I don't quite remember if it was Graf Spee or Scharnhorst, but they had issues sinking merchant vessels quickly with their 283mm guns and had to resort to using torpedoes.

werent the Akizukis meant to be AA platforms though? and not meant to be fighting other ships?

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3 minutes ago, tcbaker777 said:

werent the Akizukis meant to be AA platforms though? and not meant to be fighting other ships?

Technically, yes, but much like everything else in the IJN fleet, they used their ships for unintended roles.

Clearly the AA platform was far more effective against ships than special type DDs were against submarines and bombers.

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