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MEANN

Match Making Paradigm Shift

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I offer to the WG Universe an idea on how to improve clan Battle participation as well as Random match making balanced for skill and improvement. 

Every Season of clan wars bring around a shuffling of the top 100 clans and that all important Clan Tag color to wear with honor of where you and your commanders achieved. So with that is mind I thought of a way to balance the lopsided blowout trend that has made most of the top 100 clans play less and loses random and only play in Clan Wars. IT seems that the topic of skill based MM is always going to net a 0 result. Well I hope I can influence enough people that we can get this done. So here goes!

Rules

  • Skill Based Random Match Making will follow the previous Clan and ranked seasons.
  • Storm, Typhoon, Hurricane, and Standard Full Season Ranked 5 or better, qualify for SBRMM  (Skill Based Random Match Making)
  • SBRMM no time limit in queue, includes only Standard Rank 5 and up and Storm, Typhoon, and Hurricane players will have access to game mode
  • This is a reward for improving your skill and that of your team, it would also promote more players to advance into clans. 
  • Rest of server Squall, Gale, Ranked 6 and up, and all none Clan players would be in the open Randoms, nothing changes. 
  • The SBRMM will be the reward for playing CBS and making it to the top 50% leagues or Rank 5 or better in the full Ranked season. 
  • SBRMM players understand that the wait times for matches will vary and understand if they want to be on the Standard MM they would select the mode just like we do with co-op 

Some of the things that I have not ironed out, that I think are questions for debate.

  • what tier limit for SKBMM? only t10 or across all tiers?
  • perhaps have SBRMM being a 3 tier mode only. 8 9 and 10 with a  12 v 12 format
  • allow for 6 man teams? 
  • 4 man teams
  • hard limits on 1 cv per match as well as the normal limits to ship comp

I am looking for people to help improve the idea so WG will consider the idea of balance in Randoms. 

I think that the basic idea can be evolved into a very viable way to bring more skill and cause more people to engage in getting better. 

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The playerbase isn’t large enough at any one time to add much in the way of bells and whistles to the MM.  And that’s not even taking into account periods such as now where some players are off doing asymmetric battles, some are doing low tiers for the campaigns, and maybe Ranked or Clan Battles might be going on.

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Would need a much larger playerbase to split it up that way.

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7 minutes ago, Lert said:

Would need a much larger playerbase to split it up that way.

I would think that the 3 leagues and all of the players at rank 5 or better would be close to half of the server

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2 minutes ago, MEANN said:

 close to half of the server

... and all playing different tiers. Just because enough people are on at any given time to split them doesn't mean they're all playing at tiers that can meet each other.

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32 minutes ago, FrodoFraggin said:

The playerbase isn’t large enough at any one time to add much in the way of bells and whistles to the MM.  And that’s not even taking into account periods such as now where some players are off doing asymmetric battles, some are doing low tiers for the campaigns, and maybe Ranked or Clan Battles might be going on.

 

30 minutes ago, Lert said:

Would need a much larger playerbase to split it up that way.

What would work is skill balancing after the players were selected. While that wouldn't make blow outs go away, they even happen in King of the Sea where all of the players are above average, but it would reduce them.

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First, I'd like to dumb down your post to a level where people of my skill can understand it, just to make sure I do understand what you are saying.  Then assuming my understanding is correct, point out the flaw that is rather obvious to me.

 

I think you are wanting to add a new random battle mode that is available only to the top half of the clans so you can play random battles without people like me in it being easy targets and no real threat so the top half of the clans can get better at this game with only playing with other 80%+ players.  On the surface, this sounds great for the majority of the best players especially if this is actually what you are wanting to do.

 

Now we get to the flaw.   The rest of us under 80% players will not be seeing you great players as much in battle, so we will continue sucking since no one is there to show us that our moronic tactics don't work.   The times where I actually get better happen when I'm playing with a group of players who are better than me and force me to do something different so I'm less of a target and more of a threat.  Maybe most other players can learn to get better without being exposed to advanced tactics, not me. 

 

Yes, when I was starting out, I was having problems learning because I was dying too fast to learn what mistakes I was making.  When I first joined Sunday Funday, on a bad game, I died too fast to learn, so there is that point in favor of your proposal.  Personally, I'd like to see player ranking based match making across the board and not limit one section of randoms only to top clans so people like me who are getting close to being able to join a top half clan (bottom feeders in that bracket, not a real top clan), can still meet those players in randoms and improve.   If basically all the top players are in a separate random battle I can't access, I will never get a chance to play with them and will never get good enough to be one.

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1 minute ago, BrushWolf said:

What would work is skill balancing after the players were selected.

That might work, yes.

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Any form of matchmaking in randoms that tries to balance teams will be shot down for one reason...

The unicums in the game, who are sometimes so stat focused that they create new accounts and buy ships for that account just to squeeze out a few more percentage points of win rate, would go absolutley bonkers being put on bad teams all the time in order to balance things.  This would kill their win rate (yes there would beco e a new unicum level, but be honest, 65 wr sounds a lot better than 53, even if both mean your are awesome in different scenarios).  Stats aside, I still wouldnt blame them for being a little upset.  If you are good at the game, would you really enjoy being teamed up with a person who is the opposite of you?  Think of a 65 percent guy having to always play on teams with 40 percenters just to balance the teams.  Probably not fun.

A separate game mode with separate stats might work though, but what is in it for them?  Steel reward missions or something?  There would have to be a reason for them to play it.

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I see ONE problem.

The inherent elitism sprouting a belief that the player base is not good enough to get the benefits....

So it silently screams pregiduce. 

In the past WG tried to award a minor part of the player base with rewards bit was beaten down with the voices of the left out majority. 

....

I like the novel solution.

It would actually allow a 48% player like me to have a bigger influence on a match and increase my win rate.

......

My counter proposal would be win rate que for special 12 v 12 mode with coal / and or / steel reward for winners.

...

This definitely an interesting proposal that would actually benefit the whole playerbase and the game in general. 

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1 hour ago, MEANN said:

Every Season of clan wars bring around a shuffling of the top 100 clans and that all important Clan Tag color to wear with honor of where you and your commanders achieved. So with that is mind I thought of a way to balance the lopsided blowout trend that has made most of the top 100 clans play less and loses random and only play in Clan Wars. IT seems that the topic of skill based MM is always going to net a 0 result. Well I hope I can influence enough people that we can get this done. So here goes!

As you wrote this out, did you stop to think this game is not focused on clans? 

I doubt, as a group outside of us and clans, if the majority of people care one whip about what you care about - clans. Myself, I'm kind of tired of people thinking "whatever is good for clans is good for everyone". 

So tell me then - where can I, a non-participant in clan battles, get my steel for those elite ships the rest of us can't get unless we compete in clans battles? 

IMO enough. Stop the incessant banter of "what's good for clans is good for everyone", cause you know, it isn't. 

As an aside, how appropriate your clan and user name are, it seems. 

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8 minutes ago, Old_Baldy_One said:

A separate game mode with separate stats might work though, but what is in it for them?  Steel reward missions or something?  There would have to be a reason for them to play it.

If unicums were playing unicums in elite battles as perhaps you are suggesting, their performances would drop down into the Joe Average realm, especially if divs/clans were not permitted. 

I think I'd enjoy seeing that for sure. I don't believe they would want to see it because they no longer would be unicums or super unicums. 

A conundrum, yes? 

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1 hour ago, MEANN said:

I offer to the WG Universe an idea on how to improve clan Battle participation as well as Random match making balanced for skill and improvement. 

Every Season of clan wars bring around a shuffling of the top 100 clans and that all important Clan Tag color to wear with honor of where you and your commanders achieved. So with that is mind I thought of a way to balance the lopsided blowout trend that has made most of the top 100 clans play less and loses random and only play in Clan Wars. IT seems that the topic of skill based MM is always going to net a 0 result. Well I hope I can influence enough people that we can get this done. So here goes!

Rules

  • Skill Based Random Match Making will follow the previous Clan and ranked seasons.
  • Storm, Typhoon, Hurricane, and Standard Full Season Ranked 5 or better, qualify for SBRMM  (Skill Based Random Match Making)
  • SBRMM no time limit in queue, includes only Standard Rank 5 and up and Storm, Typhoon, and Hurricane players will have access to game mode
  • This is a reward for improving your skill and that of your team, it would also promote more players to advance into clans. 
  • Rest of server Squall, Gale, Ranked 6 and up, and all none Clan players would be in the open Randoms, nothing changes. 
  • The SBRMM will be the reward for playing CBS and making it to the top 50% leagues or Rank 5 or better in the full Ranked season. 
  • SBRMM players understand that the wait times for matches will vary and understand if they want to be on the Standard MM they would select the mode just like we do with co-op 

Some of the things that I have not ironed out, that I think are questions for debate.

  • what tier limit for SKBMM? only t10 or across all tiers?
  • perhaps have SBRMM being a 3 tier mode only. 8 9 and 10 with a  12 v 12 format
  • allow for 6 man teams? 
  • 4 man teams
  • hard limits on 1 cv per match as well as the normal limits to ship comp

I am looking for people to help improve the idea so WG will consider the idea of balance in Randoms. 

I think that the basic idea can be evolved into a very viable way to bring more skill and cause more people to engage in getting better. 

What is the goal of this?  It looks very much like a solution in search of a problem.

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1 hour ago, MEANN said:

I offer to the WG Universe an idea on how to improve clan Battle participation as well as Random match making balanced for skill and improvement. 

Every Season of clan wars bring around a shuffling of the top 100 clans and that all important Clan Tag color to wear with honor of where you and your commanders achieved. So with that is mind I thought of a way to balance the lopsided blowout trend that has made most of the top 100 clans play less and loses random and only play in Clan Wars. IT seems that the topic of skill based MM is always going to net a 0 result. Well I hope I can influence enough people that we can get this done. So here goes!

Rules

  • Skill Based Random Match Making will follow the previous Clan and ranked seasons.
  • Storm, Typhoon, Hurricane, and Standard Full Season Ranked 5 or better, qualify for SBRMM  (Skill Based Random Match Making)
  • SBRMM no time limit in queue, includes only Standard Rank 5 and up and Storm, Typhoon, and Hurricane players will have access to game mode
  • This is a reward for improving your skill and that of your team, it would also promote more players to advance into clans. 
  • Rest of server Squall, Gale, Ranked 6 and up, and all none Clan players would be in the open Randoms, nothing changes. 
  • The SBRMM will be the reward for playing CBS and making it to the top 50% leagues or Rank 5 or better in the full Ranked season. 
  • SBRMM players understand that the wait times for matches will vary and understand if they want to be on the Standard MM they would select the mode just like we do with co-op 

Some of the things that I have not ironed out, that I think are questions for debate.

  • what tier limit for SKBMM? only t10 or across all tiers?
  • perhaps have SBRMM being a 3 tier mode only. 8 9 and 10 with a  12 v 12 format
  • allow for 6 man teams? 
  • 4 man teams
  • hard limits on 1 cv per match as well as the normal limits to ship comp

I am looking for people to help improve the idea so WG will consider the idea of balance in Randoms. 

I think that the basic idea can be evolved into a very viable way to bring more skill and cause more people to engage in getting better. 

Why should WG even consider your proposal for random battles? In reality there is nothing to be gained for a lot of time & money spent that could be used elsewhere to improve the game.

I have never played a clan battle, don't have any urge to do so. I will leave that part of the discussion to those running clan battles.

 

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4 hours ago, Old_Baldy_One said:

Any form of matchmaking in randoms that tries to balance teams will be shot down for one reason...

The unicums in the game, who are sometimes so stat focused that they create new accounts and buy ships for that account just to squeeze out a few more percentage points of win rate, would go absolutely bonkers being put on bad teams all the time in order to balance things.  This would kill their win rate (yes there would become a new unicum level, but be honest, 65 wr sounds a lot better than 53, even if both mean your are awesome in different scenarios).  Stats aside, I still wouldnt blame them for being a little upset.  If you are good at the game, would you really enjoy being teamed up with a person who is the opposite of you?  Think of a 65 percent guy having to always play on teams with 40 percenters just to balance the teams.  Probably not fun.

A separate game mode with separate stats might work though, but what is in it for them?  Steel reward missions or something?  There would have to be a reason for them to play it.

What's required is for WG to grow a spine and tell these unicums that such a change is about improving the game for EVERYONE, not just the select few.

As for whether the person who is good at the game would really enjoy being teamed up with bad players, and that those good players want to play with other good players, do you think that the bad players like getting constantly seal clubbed and curb stomped by selfish unicums who care more about their own enjoyment of the game than the enjoyment of the game by everyone?  It sounds like you support a model where the fun of perhaps 10% of the player base matters more than the fun of the remaining 90% of the player base.  And IMO, that's disgusting.

Edited by Crucis
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6 minutes ago, Crucis said:

do you think that the bad players like getting constantly seal clubbed and curb stomped by selfish unicums who care more about their own enjoyment of the game the for the enjoyment of the game by everyone?

The very bad, no, but as someone who is good enough to make them use way more volleys to kill me than it takes to kill most players, I can learn from them while getting beat up.  Of course it's never fun to loose, but it is the best way to learn to get better as long as you are good enough to make the teaching session last long enough to learn something.

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1 hour ago, Skavies said:

First, I'd like to dumb down your post to a level where people of my skill can understand it, just to make sure I do understand what you are saying.  Then assuming my understanding is correct, point out the flaw that is rather obvious to me.

 

I think you are wanting to add a new random battle mode that is available only to the top half of the clans so you can play random battles without people like me in it being easy targets and no real threat so the top half of the clans can get better at this game with only playing with other 80%+ players.  On the surface, this sounds great for the majority of the best players especially if this is actually what you are wanting to do.

 

Now we get to the flaw.   The rest of us under 80% players will not be seeing you great players as much in battle, so we will continue sucking since no one is there to show us that our moronic tactics don't work.   The times where I actually get better happen when I'm playing with a group of players who are better than me and force me to do something different so I'm less of a target and more of a threat.  Maybe most other players can learn to get better without being exposed to advanced tactics, not me. 

 

Yes, when I was starting out, I was having problems learning because I was dying too fast to learn what mistakes I was making.  When I first joined Sunday Funday, on a bad game, I died too fast to learn, so there is that point in favor of your proposal.  Personally, I'd like to see player ranking based match making across the board and not limit one section of randoms only to top clans so people like me who are getting close to being able to join a top half clan (bottom feeders in that bracket, not a real top clan), can still meet those players in randoms and improve.   If basically all the top players are in a separate random battle I can't access, I will never get a chance to play with them and will never get good enough to be one.

Part of the idea was to have a limited tier for the battle mode 8 to 10. so you would still see all of the player base as they grind new lines out. 

in the idea that you will not get a chance to access the player base of really good players, that is not really going to happen. as you can achieve entry by 3 methods. 1 ranked, 2 your clan making it to storm, or 3 join a clan that is storm or better

1 hour ago, Old_Baldy_One said:

Any form of matchmaking in randoms that tries to balance teams will be shot down for one reason...

The unicums in the game, who are sometimes so stat focused that they create new accounts and buy ships for that account just to squeeze out a few more percentage points of win rate, would go absolutley bonkers being put on bad teams all the time in order to balance things.  This would kill their win rate (yes there would beco e a new unicum level, but be honest, 65 wr sounds a lot better than 53, even if both mean your are awesome in different scenarios).  Stats aside, I still wouldnt blame them for being a little upset.  If you are good at the game, would you really enjoy being teamed up with a person who is the opposite of you?  Think of a 65 percent guy having to always play on teams with 40 percenters just to balance the teams.  Probably not fun.

A separate game mode with separate stats might work though, but what is in it for them?  Steel reward missions or something?  There would have to be a reason for them to play it.

I think that it would be a very fun and competitive mode especially with 4 to 6 man divisions. i didnt want to add a reward or currency as it would exclude too many players. as for why would WG do this, it would bring back a decent amount of players that have left due to the unfun experience randoms have become.  just look at the top 100 clans and how active the players really are. Most only rank and cbs. 

the thing i also think is that you would have a reason to work at improving. getting access to this mode. 

1 hour ago, Herr_Reitz said:

As you wrote this out, did you stop to think this game is not focused on clans? 

I doubt, as a group outside of us and clans, if the majority of people care one whip about what you care about - clans. Myself, I'm kind of tired of people thinking "whatever is good for clans is good for everyone". 

So tell me then - where can I, a non-participant in clan battles, get my steel for those elite ships the rest of us can't get unless we compete in clans battles? 

IMO enough. Stop the incessant banter of "what's good for clans is good for everyone", cause you know, it isn't. 

As an aside, how appropriate your clan and user name are, it seems. 

 all wars are team sports with individual requirements. the battle mode would not offer any special rewards or currency. only a game mode that will be of course a lot more difficult and require more skill to be good.  

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2 hours ago, MEANN said:

I would think that the 3 leagues and all of the players at rank 5 or better would be close to half of the server

this is far from the truth

image.thumb.png.7dfaf32bc6e2f5724337b32481a43997.png

Only a small minority of clans even participate in CBs anyways, and only the top 1/3 of those that actually play make it to storm or higher. There would be too little players in your Enhanced MM that queue times will make players less likely to play the game

Edited by CPRVonLettowVorbeck

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1 minute ago, munchtiger said:

So my reward will be super long queue times? Wow what a great idea!

I'll pass thank you.

Exactly. I have no concerns with the matchmaking we have right now. I've been holding at a 79% win rate in randoms for like the last 5 months, and i think its fine.

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3 hours ago, MEANN said:

I would think that the 3 leagues and all of the players at rank 5 or better would be close to half of the server

They need to be online for this to work, different time zones, full time work, 'the want to play' are all key factors. 
 

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3 hours ago, MEANN said:

I offer to the WG Universe an idea on how to improve clan Battle participation as well as Random match making balanced for skill and improvement. 

Every Season of clan wars bring around a shuffling of the top 100 clans and that all important Clan Tag color to wear with honor of where you and your commanders achieved. So with that is mind I thought of a way to balance the lopsided blowout trend that has made most of the top 100 clans play less and loses random and only play in Clan Wars. IT seems that the topic of skill based MM is always going to net a 0 result. Well I hope I can influence enough people that we can get this done. So here goes!

Rules

  • Skill Based Random Match Making will follow the previous Clan and ranked seasons.
  • Storm, Typhoon, Hurricane, and Standard Full Season Ranked 5 or better, qualify for SBRMM  (Skill Based Random Match Making)
  • SBRMM no time limit in queue, includes only Standard Rank 5 and up and Storm, Typhoon, and Hurricane players will have access to game mode
  • This is a reward for improving your skill and that of your team, it would also promote more players to advance into clans. 
  • Rest of server Squall, Gale, Ranked 6 and up, and all none Clan players would be in the open Randoms, nothing changes. 
  • The SBRMM will be the reward for playing CBS and making it to the top 50% leagues or Rank 5 or better in the full Ranked season. 
  • SBRMM players understand that the wait times for matches will vary and understand if they want to be on the Standard MM they would select the mode just like we do with co-op 

Some of the things that I have not ironed out, that I think are questions for debate.

  • what tier limit for SKBMM? only t10 or across all tiers?
  • perhaps have SBRMM being a 3 tier mode only. 8 9 and 10 with a  12 v 12 format
  • allow for 6 man teams? 
  • 4 man teams
  • hard limits on 1 cv per match as well as the normal limits to ship comp

I am looking for people to help improve the idea so WG will consider the idea of balance in Randoms. 

I think that the basic idea can be evolved into a very viable way to bring more skill and cause more people to engage in getting better. 

Why welcome back Meann, I see we have your weekend brain storm... Lets debunk it together shell we. Good.

Lets start with the obvious,

  1. SBMM has been a failed idea in the gaming titles it has been introduced. Every single one of them report a steep down drop in population activity. Like this
    • image.png.acd804cacc4c3f351b69a2fd2b0e7e7a.png
  2. MM is not the problem, its the scapegoat.
  3. MM just as SBMM are controlled by the following math principles.
    • Principle of chance
    • Principle of Random
    • Principle of probability.
      • No matter what MM function you use SBMM or other... You will still have to deal with these 3 math principles.
      • According to Sub_oct in his last Pod cast interview, we already have a population problem... SBMM do not fix that issue... It exacerbates it..
  4. The root cause of blow outs are caused because of
    • Power creep ships/ordnance which leads to
      • The Snowball affect.
        • Last time I poke my math behind SBMM, It doesn't negate the snowball effect. Which means, SBMM or the MM we have now, blow outs will still happen. No matter what.

In summery,

 

 Meann I repeat your opinion... However, SBMM is not the solution or the magic cure you've convinced yourself.

Besides, With the new CPT skills coming in 6 months... I am more concern with introducing more NTC like power/power creep abilities to the BBs/CVs.

Not only that, we're on the verge (Maybe) to have human only fired secondaries. Yikes!

 

Edited by Navalpride33
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20 minutes ago, CPRVonLettowVorbeck said:

Exactly. I have no concerns with the matchmaking we have right now. I've been holding at a 79% win rate in randoms for like the last 5 months, and i think its fine.

not calling you on the carpet, however, you have 0 solo games in the last 21 days.  also, your solo numbers are 52% and 3100 games. so on your own you would not be 75% random player. you dont have concerns with MM cause you never play solo. 

over 5k of your 8k plus games are in a div. so you solo are a 52% player. Before you do it. i have 11854 randoms 5730 solo 47% 2876 in 2 man div with 50% win and 3248 in div of 3 with a 55% win. 

0 games solo in 21 days 

11 in a div of 2 with a 63% win

57 in div of 3 with  75% win. 

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2 minutes ago, MEANN said:

not calling you on the carpet, however, you have 0 solo games in the last 21 days.  also, your solo numbers are 52% and 3100 games. so on your own you would not be 75% random player. you dont have concerns with MM cause you never play solo. 

over 5k of your 8k plus games are in a div. so you solo are a 52% player. Before you do it. i have 11854 randoms 5730 solo 47% 2876 in 2 man div with 50% win and 3248 in div of 3 with a 55% win. 

0 games solo in 21 days 

11 in a div of 2 with a 63% win

57 in div of 3 with  75% win. 

Being someone who plays solos a lot, I have to disagree with you. While it is easier to win a 3 man div of unicums, even then you can lose to blowouts. Sometimes there is nothing you can do to win a game no matter who you have on a team. Over the last 21 days my solo WR is only 2% lower than my division WR, so I don't think CPR playing in a division has anything at all to do with his opinion on MM. Also like munch said, why would we want long wait times. I used to want skill based mm, but that was when I had very few games and now that I've played more I don't think it would help anything, especially in randoms. The only place I could see it being useful in would be ranked.

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9 minutes ago, MEANN said:

not calling you on the carpet, however, you have 0 solo games in the last 21 days.  also, your solo numbers are 52% and 3100 games. so on your own you would not be 75% random player. you dont have concerns with MM cause you never play solo. 

over 5k of your 8k plus games are in a div. so you solo are a 52% player. Before you do it. i have 11854 randoms 5730 solo 47% 2876 in 2 man div with 50% win and 3248 in div of 3 with a 55% win. 

0 games solo in 21 days 

11 in a div of 2 with a 63% win

57 in div of 3 with  75% win. 

Thanks for reaching out! Yeah, I see WOWS as a game that I play to have fun with friends. Is there truly anything wrong with playing with friends? In addition, I am an active player in one of the top 10 clans on the server where I played over 100 games last season including games in the hurricane league. If you want to put me down by looking at my stats, just remember "Stats arent everything".  

 

PS, i'd avoid stat shaming on the forums in the future, as I'm pretty sure it is violating rules set in place.

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