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Mahrs

Things I learned today...

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I picked up WoWS again to investigate after a long break and noted some things seemed “the same, but different.”

In particular, the passive play I was used to now extended among DD.  I decided to take some DD out and see what it was all about. Initially, I didn’t learn much, things didn’t feel too different.  Today, though, I was blessed to have three or so matches in a row where a CV made me their sole focus from the beginning of the match until my eventual destruction.  I’ve always hated CV.  However, I’ve never felt this powerless against them. It’s always been super “fun and engaging” to have no counter play save the CV driver just having bad aim...but, it is even more fun and engaging when instead of one attack run they can make three in a row, keeping you spotted the whole time.  To all of my fellow DD drivers out there that I’ve thought badly about over the last couple weeks for playing passively...I’m sorry, I get it now. 

The other thing I learned today is that BB drivers are never gonna play aggressively like cruiser and DD mains want them to.  I had a match with no CV, no DD and a fair few cruisers with no torps or short range torps...in other words, absolutely as good as it gets, the perfect scenario that we’ve all heard of - “if it weren’t for DD and CV, I’d be more aggressive.”  Nope.  Now, I’m always happy to collect a win as a T8 in a T10 match, but I was surprised by how little the dynamic changed without any of these supposed barriers to aggression present. 

Lastly, I learned that I have no idea how to influence teammates effectively. It’s easy to see the mistakes stack up and the eventual loss coming...but, it’s not so easy to keep folks from forming into a little ball while the reds surround them on all sides with all the caps...I feel like there must be some award for surviving a losing battle because I’m seeing a lot of it and it feels like folks (red and green alike) are playing for it. It strikes me as super weird how many matches go to points or time now compared to when I last played.

I also ran into some new players that are excited about the game, so that’s cool. 

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1 hour ago, Mahrs said:

I picked up WoWS again to investigate after a long break and noted some things seemed “the same, but different.”

In particular, the passive play I was used to now extended among DD.  I decided to take some DD out and see what it was all about. Initially, I didn’t learn much, things didn’t feel too different.  Today, though, I was blessed to have three or so matches in a row where a CV made me their sole focus from the beginning of the match until my eventual destruction.  I’ve always hated CV.  However, I’ve never felt this powerless against them. It’s always been super “fun and engaging” to have no counter play save the CV driver just having bad aim...but, it is even more fun and engaging when instead of one attack run they can make three in a row, keeping you spotted the whole time.  To all of my fellow DD drivers out there that I’ve thought badly about over the last couple weeks for playing passively...I’m sorry, I get it now. 

The other thing I learned today is that BB drivers are never gonna play aggressively like cruiser and DD mains want them to.  I had a match with no CV, no DD and a fair few cruisers with no torps or short range torps...in other words, absolutely as good as it gets, the perfect scenario that we’ve all heard of - “if it weren’t for DD and CV, I’d be more aggressive.”  Nope.  Now, I’m always happy to collect a win as a T8 in a T10 match, but I was surprised by how little the dynamic changed without any of these supposed barriers to aggression present. 

Lastly, I learned that I have no idea how to influence teammates effectively. It’s easy to see the mistakes stack up and the eventual loss coming...but, it’s not so easy to keep folks from forming into a little ball while the reds surround them on all sides with all the caps...I feel like there must be some award for surviving a losing battle because I’m seeing a lot of it and it feels like folks (red and green alike) are playing for it. It strikes me as super weird how many matches go to points or time now compared to when I last played.

I also ran into some new players that are excited about the game, so that’s cool. 

Do you know to keep your AA off (P button) so you are much harder for the CV to spot?

They can't keep you spotted from 1 attack to the next w/it off btw.

By 3 attacks you should be able to get back to that "bubble" of friendly ships for support if you keep AA off so CV has a harder time lining you up each attack (charging into them gives them less time to be able to lock on you before they pass you also).

Hope that's not "old news" & helps out.

Edited by IfYouSeeKhaos
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The other thing I learned today is that BB drivers are never gonna play aggressively like cruiser and DD mains want them to.  I had a match with no CV, no DD and a fair few cruisers with no torps or short range torps...in other words, absolutely as good as it gets, the perfect scenario that we’ve all heard of - “if it weren’t for DD and CV, I’d be more aggressive.”  Nope.  Now, I’m always happy to collect a win as a T8 in a T10 match, but I was surprised by how little the dynamic changed without any of these supposed barriers to aggression present. 

It is easier for BB's to play the same way every battle. I've been deserted by DD's & cruisers when they see a couple of red ships. They have the speed and agility to turn & run where a BB takes time & usually receives a lot of damage.

The way I look at it is if you want a ship played a certain way then play that ship yourself. There are no teams in randoms, just 12 individuals trying to sink the other 12 individuals.

CV's have created an imbalance WG is unwilling to correct. DD's suffer the most.

I now play mostly coops because you must be aggressive to score any hits.

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2 hours ago, Mahrs said:

I picked up WoWS again to investigate after a long break and noted some things seemed “the same, but different.”

Hey welcome aboard again.... And I told you just that some weeks ago...

2 hours ago, Mahrs said:

I picked up WoWS again to investigate after a long break and noted some things seemed “the same, but different.”

In particular, the passive play I was used to now extended among DD.  I decided to take some DD out and see what it was all about. Initially, I didn’t learn much, things didn’t feel too different.  Today, though, I was blessed to have three or so matches in a row where a CV made me their sole focus from the beginning of the match until my eventual destruction.  I’ve always hated CV.  However, I’ve never felt this powerless against them. It’s always been super “fun and engaging” to have no counter play save the CV driver just having bad aim...but, it is even more fun and engaging when instead of one attack run they can make three in a row, keeping you spotted the whole time.  To all of my fellow DD drivers out there that I’ve thought badly about over the last couple weeks for playing passively...I’m sorry, I get it now. 

 

Today you have a choice before you:

To be realist and objective and let the crap CV mechanic sour your mood and ruin your game experience.

Or take it at face value as another challenge to overcome without stoping to think to much about it, and get as much enjoyment as you are able. 

I'm saying this with a straight face, playing "just dodge" and "hide and seek" can be fun in its own way.

2 hours ago, Mahrs said:

 

The other thing I learned today is that BB drivers are never gonna play aggressively like cruiser and DD mains want them to.  I had a match with no CV, no DD and a fair few cruisers with no torps or short range torps...in other words, absolutely as good as it gets, the perfect scenario that we’ve all heard of - “if it weren’t for DD and CV, I’d be more aggressive.”  Nope.  Now, I’m always happy to collect a win as a T8 in a T10 match, but I was surprised by how little the dynamic changed without any of these supposed barriers to aggression present. 

Lastly, I learned that I have no idea how to influence teammates effectively. It’s easy to see the mistakes stack up and the eventual loss coming...but, it’s not so easy to keep folks from forming into a little ball while the reds surround them on all sides with all the caps...I feel like there must be some award for surviving a losing battle because I’m seeing a lot of it and it feels like folks (red and green alike) are playing for it. It strikes me as super weird how many matches go to points or time now compared to when I last played.

Passive BBs are the same as always, on the positive side, a lot of cruiser and DD players also play BBs so, sometimes the BBs do push up. 

Funny how you are surprised about long matches. A lot of guys around here are terribly upset about blowouts and too short matches.

Cheers

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4 hours ago, Mahrs said:

However, I’ve never felt this powerless against them. It’s always been super “fun and engaging” to have no counter play save the CV driver just having bad aim

There is counterplay and it does not rely on the CV driver having bad aim you just are not aware of what to do because you have been gone.

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12 hours ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

Do you know to keep your AA off (P button) so you are much harder for the CV to spot?

They can't keep you spotted from 1 attack to the next w/it off btw.

By 3 attacks you should be able to get back to that "bubble" of friendly ships for support if you keep AA off so CV has a harder time lining you up each attack (charging into them gives them less time to be able to lock on you before they pass you also).

Hope that's not "old news" & helps out.


This is the crux of it. I’m used to spotting/taking caps...classic DD business. Asking teammates with AA to be within 6km or so of a cap early game is too much (much of the time). Given that the attacks can be made sequentially with little delay, if you’re not with your friendlies when they start, you’re not getting back. That’s why the DD aren’t up front, they’re staying close to their escorts.  It’s just a new dynamic for me, clearly everyone else got the memo. No hard feelings, just the way it is now.

As to P/AA, It could be that I’ve missed a piece of equipment or a skill...I run with my AA off, but it doesn’t really matter as my AA range and detection distance by air are basically the same...I.e. I’m detected before I would shoot anyway. I keep it off to avoid the gun bloom penalty.

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9 hours ago, Vaffu said:

There is counterplay and it does not rely on the CV driver having bad aim you just are not aware of what to do because you have been gone.

Undoubtedly some truth here. I’m not sure if I’m down to work it out or if I’ll just play cruisers, BBs and and try to relearn those instead.

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@Mahrs, if you poke around the forums enough, you'll find "how-to" articles explaining DD methods for dealing with CV's.  Also, there are some youtube videos for the same purpose.

I play all available ship types.

If it is any consolation, the EU tech-tree DD's offer some serious AA capabilities at the higher tiers.  The down side is their weak torpedo warheads can't sink a BB or CV in one torp-salvo.

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The historical accuracy crowd should be enthused by an “escort” DD line, no? The grind is always a bit of a challenge considering my inherent “filthy casual” nature. I’m kicking myself for “wasting” it on the VMF and USN lines, honestly.  

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24 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

@Mahrs
.  The down side is their weak torpedo warheads can't sink a BB or CV in one torp-salvo.

They take 3 torps to sink a Haragumo. Trust me.

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1 hour ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

The down side is their weak torpedo warheads can't sink a BB or CV in one torp-salvo.

I had a 1 torp dev strike on a Kremlin.. 94,000 damage single torp. He detonated :D

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Hi OP,

 

CVs are initially difficult to counter, but if you take some time and rack up 100-200 games in CVs, you get a gut feeling for what makes DDs hard to spot/hit. AFter that, CVs aren't any worse than radar cruisers or enemy dds. Hope this helps. 

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12 hours ago, Vaffu said:

There is counterplay and it does not rely on the CV driver having bad aim you just are not aware of what to do because you have been gone.

I think you mean mitigation, not counter play.  You can mitigate the damage you take from CVs, but there is no counter play.  There is a big difference between mitigation and counter play.  For the record, counter play is the use of mechanics or specific tactics to be able to turn the tables on your attacker and defeat them.  You don't defeat the CV player by reducing the amount of damage you take from his attacks.

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3 hours ago, Slimeball91 said:

I think you mean mitigation, not counter play.  You can mitigate the damage you take from CVs, but there is no counter play.  There is a big difference between mitigation and counter play.  For the record, counter play is the use of mechanics or specific tactics to be able to turn the tables on your attacker and defeat them.  You don't defeat the CV player by reducing the amount of damage you take from his attacks.

Detection is 1 of the game mechanics & stealthing your way into torp range to sink them is counter play...wouldn't recommend trying it in a gunboat DD though.

Wouldn't recommend hunting a CV just to hunt them in the 1st place but it is doable if you don't mind taking yourself out of the battle to do it.

 

Edited by IfYouSeeKhaos

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33 minutes ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

Detection is 1 of the game mechanics & stealthing your way into torp range to sink them is counter play...wouldn't recommend trying it in a gunboat DD though.

That isn't counter play, that is attacking.  Counter play is turning the tables on your attacker.  In this case counter play would be for the CV player, he/she would launch rocket planes or DBs and use the inherent advantages of planes to turn the tables on the attacking DD. 

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To me, the funny thing about CV can be summarized thusly: “CV are fine - if you play a conservative match based around their presence and carefully craft a team strategy to neutralize them, you can minimize their impact.”  If you say that about any other ship in the lineup, it’s usually indicative of a balance problem, but that’s just how CV are. I bought the KM T4 to see if maybe I can learn a bit more about them. 

There are plenty of match ups that aren’t ideal, but you can win. That’s one of the most interesting things about the game to me. One of my proudest moments was dueling a Baltimore (when it was T9) in my Benson as I fought to the bitter end in a losing match. BB know what it’s like to get wrecked by a cruiser 1v1, or torped up close and personal. On it goes, lots of 1v1 can be won, even when not ideal.  CV present a fundamentally different dynamic to the player.

Enough about that, though! I can’t change it, so the only thing left is to learn and improve.

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1 hour ago, Slimeball91 said:

That isn't counter play, that is attacking.  Counter play is turning the tables on your attacker.  In this case counter play would be for the CV player, he/she would launch rocket planes or DBs and use the inherent advantages of planes to turn the tables on the attacking DD. 

Gotta give you that 1...what I said isn't counter play...it is attacking.

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8 hours ago, Slimeball91 said:

I think you mean mitigation, not counter play.  You can mitigate the damage you take from CVs, but there is no counter play.  There is a big difference between mitigation and counter play.  For the record, counter play is the use of mechanics or specific tactics to be able to turn the tables on your attacker and defeat them.  You don't defeat the CV player by reducing the amount of damage you take from his attacks.

What if I shoot down his entire attacking squadrons while he deals no damage? That count?

Just for the record, it is a counterplay. You countered his attack (the CVs play) with evasive maneuvers (a play of your own).

Edited by Vaffu

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18 minutes ago, Vaffu said:

What if I shoot down his entire attacking squadrons while he deals no damage? That count?

Just for the record, it is a counterplay. You countered his attack (the CVs play) with evasive maneuvers (a play of your own).

Like I said, its only damage mitigation.  Angling and bouncing shells in not counter play, its mitigation.  A cruiser using its radar and blapping that smoked up Friesland is counter play.  Can you see the difference?  One reduces the amount of damage you take, the other defeats your opponent. 

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44 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

Like I said, its only damage mitigation.  Angling and bouncing shells in not counter play, its mitigation.  A cruiser using its radar and blapping that smoked up Friesland is counter play.  Can you see the difference?  One reduces the amount of damage you take, the other defeats your opponent. 

Wrong.  A counterplay is the counter to your opponents play in this case evading their attack. Can you see the difference? Radar counters smoke therefore radar is the counterplay not the shooting of the ship.

 

Edited by Vaffu

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23 minutes ago, Vaffu said:

Wrong.  A counterplay is the counter to your opponents play in this case evading their attack. Can you see the difference? Radar counters smoke therefore radar is the counterplay not the shooting of the ship.

Look, I'm not say dodging attacks or shoot down planes isn't going help, it is helpful.  I just pointed out its not counter play.  Digging in your heels and doubling down isn't going to redefine terms.  Ifyouseekhaos gave a great example of how to concede a point gracefully.  You should follow his lead.  If you want to believe mitigation is good enough and there is no need for actual counter play, then go ahead and make that argument.

For your edification.  Counter play isn't just a move you make to respond to your opponent.  Its a concept in game design to make for more compelling game play.  A game centered around hard counters like that of rock, paper, scissors, where one archetype always wins against one particular opponent, is a very simple game design, but not the most compelling.  The idea of counter play is design that allows the different archetypes to always have a chance to defeat an opponent, even one that it might be inherently weak against.  The idea is to make the game more interesting by not having predetermined outcomes to any given match ups.  Its boring, and often times frustrating to always lose a particular match up by the game's very design.  That's why counter is important, since it not only makes the game more interesting, but it also helps remove frustration because you always have a chance to defeat your opponent in a given engagement.

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It might be easier to impose a Boyd Loop against the human opponet. Similar to Chess. He has two options, one leads to defeat and the other seems ok but is a deliberate construct on my part to eventually checkmate him when the true horror of my offense moves gets unmasked a few moves later. If he does anything to be a credible threat that I  did not see coming then I must detail one or two chess pieces to deal with and eliminate that threat. Sometimes a entire game is built on that fight.

A Boyd Loop is a construct designed by a fighter Pilot in Korea and after. You get inside the enemy's turning and decision making cycle. The more moves you impose against the enemy faster than he can make decisions and input that into his plane still working on the first move you made... you are two or three moments ahead of him and eventually will get the kill when he runs out of energy or options due to physics in dogfighting.

Wild Weasel used to be one of the most dangerous missions against a smart human enemy. You show up in his front yard gong NYAH NYAH NYAH you cannot hit me boo hoo NYAH. etc.

Repeat until smart human loses his temper and forgets higher critical thinking and battle planning. Mashes his launch button in anger to erase you.

 

Bingo, now you have the 4 launch sites plus his radar central which just lit up all of heaven. You have buddies coming to take care of that while you deal with the missiles coming up stairs to erase you.

 

Most humans in game can handle one big problem. Or two little problems. Its the tiny third problem that breaks the camel's back of that person's overloaded mind. If your team sees enemy calls out same, such as "Tank at bridge to C" and a few moments later as you assess your command and see which assets or people can take tank out, its already been solved. "Tank Dead" whats next boss? If my team is really good I might have nothing to do all map just sit somewhere and be safe from knifers or snipers etc until the fight is over with.

In those games we fight 4 ways.

1- Alpha team Full attack, they get told what objective then are left alone to attack and TAKE that Obj. (And the next and the next always attack)

2-Bravo. Defense team, they go where Alpha goes. Once Objective is ours, BRAVO stays behind against any enemy counter attack. Once Alpha is halfway to next Obj Bravo is now to go there too with Alpha.

3- Charlie. They are in a position to do anything asked of them. If they need a chopper to airlift Bravo ahead of Alpha and air assault behind a disorganized enemyu? So be it. Whatever the situation anyone needs, Charlie is on the job.

4. In every clan there is a subset of antisocials who do not want to be barked at all day. They don't talk either. Excpet to laugh and curse your clumsy oaf when you trip over a mine and fire your weapon accidently totally and utterly alerting the 50 man strong warehouse you have managed to get halfway into.

 

Delta squad. Anyone on that knows what needs to be done, the dirty work. Off they go. No commander, no hassle, no orders no nothing. Just raise holy hell in the enemy own homeland. Wreck his stuff before he gets a chance to drive, sail or fly into battle.

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9 hours ago, Slimeball91 said:

Look, I'm not say dodging attacks or shoot down planes isn't going help, it is helpful.  I just pointed out its not counter play.  Digging in your heels and doubling down isn't going to redefine terms.  Ifyouseekhaos gave a great example of how to concede a point gracefully.  You should follow his lead.  If you want to believe mitigation is good enough and there is no need for actual counter play, then go ahead and make that argument.

For your edification.  Counter play isn't just a move you make to respond to your opponent.  Its a concept in game design to make for more compelling game play.  A game centered around hard counters like that of rock, paper, scissors, where one archetype always wins against one particular opponent, is a very simple game design, but not the most compelling.  The idea of counter play is design that allows the different archetypes to always have a chance to defeat an opponent, even one that it might be inherently weak against.  The idea is to make the game more interesting by not having predetermined outcomes to any given match ups.  Its boring, and often times frustrating to always lose a particular match up by the game's very design.  That's why counter is important, since it not only makes the game more interesting, but it also helps remove frustration because you always have a chance to defeat your opponent in a given engagement.

I am not the one who needs to concede any point. To use your analogy. Radar is the counterplay to smoke just as dodging an aerial attack is the counterplay to the aerial attack. Damaging the opponent's ship has nothing to do with counter playing their "play". You could not damage the enemy ship reliably in smoke with your guns without the counterplay of radar just like the aerial attack cannot damage you if you counterplay it by dodging the attack.  You do not have to defeat your opponent to counterplay their move. You are confusing damage with counterplay.

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11 minutes ago, Vaffu said:

I am not the one who needs to concede any point. To use your analogy. Radar is the counterplay to smoke just as dodging an aerial attack is the counterplay to the aerial attack. Damaging the opponent's ship has nothing to do with counter playing their "play". You could not damage the enemy ship reliably in smoke with your guns without the counterplay of radar just like the aerial attack cannot damage you if you counterplay it by dodging the attack.  You do not have to defeat your opponent to counterplay their move. You are confusing damage with counterplay.

Bingo!  :cap_look:

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