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Aurora_7

Secondary Builds - what's your reasoning for them

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Are you a BB looking for more self defense or a CA looking for more firepower when chasing down DDs?

I've playing with my first concentrated secondary build on my Gneisenau to deal with DDs that get close. I was thinking of doing one up for a CA for express purpose of DD hunting.

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On the Manfred, Manual Secondaries are huge. Very unfortunate that skill is going away..

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Damage is more reliable provided you can close the range, and the biggest thing is it is more fun. 

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21 minutes ago, Merc_R_Us said:

On the Manfred, Manual Secondaries are huge. Very unfortunate that skill is going away..

Why is it going away ???

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I have a 19pt German capt speced for full sec. I use him for Operations on the PEF and Sharn. Also handy for doing sec hits and ribbons in coop when missions or naval battles require. 

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To me it's just fun having a BB with secondary build. For me nothing in the game is more fun than an up close slugging match. Doesn't always work out in my favor but it is always fun.

Also it helps with DDs, no denying that. And with manual targeting of secondaries you can concentrate on one threat with main guns and on the other with secondaries if you wish. Good times.

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2 minutes ago, clammboy said:

Why is it going away ???

The captain skill rework has ship specific captain skills (One set for DDs, another for cruisers, BBs, and CVs).

CV captain skills don't include secondary gun options.

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All the skill discussions are sort of preliminary, as we don't actually "know" the effect they will have upon ships until they are formalized. Or at least going through PT. 

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34 minutes ago, Aurora_7 said:

Are you a BB looking for more self defense or a CA looking for more firepower when chasing down DDs?

I've playing with my first concentrated secondary build on my Gneisenau to deal with DDs that get close. I was thinking of doing one up for a CA for express purpose of DD hunting.

I have one on my South Carolina, since the secondaries are so many and so fast a reload. I usually just take the ship straight through an enemy push to mess them all up & let my team do the sniping.

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3 minutes ago, DrHolmes52 said:

The captain skill rework has ship specific captain skills (One set for DDs, another for cruisers, BBs, and CVs).

CV captain skills don't include secondary gun options.

Oh these are the one's that are a WIP and subject to change that everyone was wigging about .

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Just now, clammboy said:

Oh these are the one's that are a WIP and subject to change that everyone was wigging about .

Yeah.  As @Herr_Reitz noted, it is early.

I would be a little sad if the meme builds are no longer available.

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My reason for secondary build on all my german BB is fun factor, same goes for Massachusetts, Georgia, Ohio, and few french BB.

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2 minutes ago, DrHolmes52 said:

Yeah.  As @Herr_Reitz noted, it is early.

I would be a little sad if the meme builds are no longer available.

I didn't get to read it all so I cant really comment on it . leaving for work now will have to read the whole thing tonight .

But I have to agree that would be sad .

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Personally, when I have them I use them as protection against DDs who want to sink my parking lot (GK). 

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Shotgun dispersion and poor sigma on the main guns. You need a ship and captain build combined to make it work right along with reasonable secondaries base range and base DPM, otherwise the ship becomes another port queen. I use it on DKM BBs only. 

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2 hours ago, Aurora_7 said:

Are you a BB looking for more self defense or a CA looking for more firepower when chasing down DDs?

I've playing with my first concentrated secondary build on my Gneisenau to deal with DDs that get close. I was thinking of doing one up for a CA for express purpose of DD hunting.

Secondaries are OK on the KM BB line if you like to brawl.  Some of the high end players will eschew them as in the grand scheme there appears to be other captain slots that ultimately deliver more bang for the buck.  But I personally am always looking for the brawl in my KM BBs, so from T8 and above, I tend to run secondary builds.  Albeit, I run the Legendary module on my GK which, although touted as secondary build, is actually more of a main battery accelerant with a side order of secondaries. 

Also, the biggest benefit of secondaries isn't so much the DDs, but the CAs and BBs.  In an attrition battle with a BB, secondaries can often be the deciding factor.  And you get a LOT more secondary hits on BBs than DDs.  I've been in fights with DDs...designated them...with full secondary builds...at range...fired off 100 rounds and achieved maybe two hits.  The lion's share of the kill is often still the main battery

You also have to RESIST trying to force a secondary engagement because you have a secondary build.  Most of the time, forcing a secondary engagement is counterproductive.  It should simply be a part of an overall brawling strategy, where the full package of what you can bring into the engagement is factored into the effort, matched against the reds you're facing.

I'm not sure on the payoff of secondary builds on CAs.  Your main DD kill mechanism is your main battery.  Skills that maximize main battery DPM is better than pumping secondaries.

As the secondary build is an adjunct to a brawl strategy, it is important to understand where it all fits for each particular ship.  Take my Bismarck for example.  Full secondary build.  I push a lot.  I engage DDs a lot..early...at CAPS.  It's not the secondaries that win the day.  It's a combination of surprise, speed, agility,  turret rotation speed, hydro AND (this is a big AND) my supporting DDs and CAs that are close by.  I seldom can take on a DD alone, even with hydro and secondaries.  But the COMBINED arms (secondaries being just one in the mix of many contributions combinations) is what drives home the win.  Catch a DD out...unload with main battery, secondaries, and the rain from friendly CA and DD main batteries.  That's the key.  Secondaries being one small percentage contributor to the DDs HP drain to destruction.

There are indeed situations where I find myself in tank positions in an attrition contest.  Secondaries can help with the bleed in these situations.  But again, you don't go looking for those situations...rather, they are situations that unfold and you exercise your asymmetric advantages (which include your secondary build) to win the attrition contest.

Lastly, note I don't pick up secondary builds on KM BBs until T8.  I don't feel like they run well at T7 and below. It's been a long time since I've checked, so I can't say for sure.  But when I ran the numbers many moons ago, T7 and below just didn't work out.  Some unicums will even say T8 and above don't work out either...but for the reasons above, I'm not trying to build the optimal ship for all engagements...I like the brawl...even if it's a sub optimal build.

 

Edited by Soshi_Sone
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Secondaries are great for if you want to have fun. On the flip side, they are also fun for my he spamming nevsky as it is likely you won't have fire prevention or concealment expert....

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16 minutes ago, Soshi_Sone said:

Lastly, note I don't pick up secondary builds on KM BBs until T8.  I don't feel like they run well at T7 and below. It's been a long time since I've checked, so I can't say for sure.  But when I ran the numbers many moons ago, T7 and below just didn't work out.  Some unicums will even say T8 and above don't work out either...but for the reasons above, I'm not trying to build the optimal ship for all engagements...I like the brawl...even if it's a sub optimal build.

I second this. The ugly sisters only have 8km secondary range when fully specced, even though they do get a big boost from MFCSA. You just don’t get enough return for your investment at lower tiers.

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  • They are lots of fun, most likely because they force you into close range where things get far more exciting than hanging around in the back.
  • They help supplement your main batteries when they are not performing well or have shortcomings. Most secondary BBs seem to be like this: german BBs have not so great accuracy, Georgia only has 6 guns. Makes sense really, almost certainly for balancing the ship's abilities.
2 hours ago, rhulkb27 said:

as it is likely you won't have fire prevention or concealment expert....

Yep, you have to make sacrifices for it.

3 hours ago, Soshi_Sone said:

I'm not sure on the payoff of secondary builds on CAs. 

I'm not sure if it is even viable on any cruiser; too many skill and/or module sacrifices for secondaries that are not strong enough to be worth improving.

If someone has an example that has worked for them, then please share. I would be interested in hearing about how someone made a cruiser secondary setup work for them.

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4 hours ago, Soshi_Sone said:

As the secondary build is an adjunct to a brawl strategy, it is important to understand where it all fits for each particular ship.  Take my Bismarck for example.  Full secondary build.  I push a lot.  I engage DDs a lot..early...at CAPS.  It's not the secondaries that win the day.  It's a combination of surprise, speed, agility,  turret rotation speed, hydro AND (this is a big AND) my supporting DDs and CAs that are close by.  I seldom can take on a DD alone, even with hydro and secondaries.  But the COMBINED arms (secondaries being just one in the mix of many contributions combinations) is what drives home the win.  Catch a DD out...unload with main battery, secondaries, and the rain from friendly CA and DD main batteries.  That's the key.  Secondaries being one small percentage contributor to the DDs HP drain to destruction.

This is so much why this:  

 

6 hours ago, Merc_R_Us said:

On the Manfred, Manual Secondaries are huge. Very unfortunate that skill is going away..

Or to be more precise the general " secondary builds are being nerfed " is wrong. ( i get that it sucks for manfred in particular)

 

Man. Secondaries was never a great or even reliable way to count on damage.   With the Skill change secondary spec ships will become even better brawlers as they will gain both 10% faster Main battery reload and and are also given an additional 2 points , with the fire starter being dropped to a lower tier spec  this means you can now build to full Man Secondaries  that fires on both sides of the ship simultaneously and an almost completely full survival build on a BB and all you loose is 25% accuracy on selected targets.  Due to this only affecting the max secondary dispersion  all of this together is going to make for a far stronger Brawling BBs after the change then what we have now.  

 

 

Edited by eviltane

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