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Helstrem

If a skill based MM were introduced, what scapegoat would players blame for blowouts?

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I keep seeing demands for a skill based MM to be added to stop blowouts from happening.  Blowouts are barely affected by the lack of a skill based MM and would only be reduced by about 5%.  Blowouts are caused by the lack of comeback mechanisms to inhibit the snowball effect in the game.  Unicum vs Unicum teams still frequently result in blowouts.

That being the case, if WG caved and introduced a skill based MM what do you think players would pick as the new scapegoat as the cause of blowouts?  Personally I think that players would claim that the MM wasn't using the correct skills and needs to use whatever their pet theory says shows a player's real skill.

I doubt that the player base will ever accept that blowouts are built into the game with the way match rules are structured.

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Probably Smurfs

Because that is exactly what is going to happen is WoWS introduces skill based matchmaking (aside from the fact that the game will die if it ever happens)

If you ever played any game with a elo system you will know that Smurfs are very common.

 

Also quite a fun fact: If you search the stats of anyone who wants skill based matchmaking on wows numbers, you will find that their skill level are all red to yellow

Because only bad players look to their team to blame for their lack of success.

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3 minutes ago, DolphinPrincess said:

Probably Smurfs

Because that is exactly what is going to happen is WoWS introduces skill based matchmaking (aside from the fact that the game will die if it ever happens)

If you ever played any game with a elo system you will know that Smurfs are very common.

 

 

I had to go look that up.

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In order they will blame:

1) The matchmaker for not matching the teams well enough

2)Carriers

3) Thier DD players

4) anyone hugging the back line

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Just now, Ellyh said:

In order they will blame:

ANYTHING EXCEPT THEMSELVES.

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3 minutes ago, SteelRain_Rifleman said:

I concur!

OK. Raise your hand if you've ever blamed yourself for a blowout.

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In the old days, players of significant super skills, blamed lag.

You will see this phrase often.

"I blame lag."

The problem with skill based is say 007 clan is constantly matched up with another clan similar in skill. They would be facing each other every day until everyone on both clans has a 50% win record. Because 50% would be the set threshold. 

Then what?

Lightsaber duels in the park? Mean tweets? Sending pizza to a player during a battle? Spying? Sending an envelope full of glitter?

Yep, that would lead to a very bad outcome. Orange would be the new purple.

And red never gets completely better because they don't ever face a well experienced opponent to learn your mistakes from.

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3 minutes ago, chewonit said:

OK. Raise your hand if you've ever blamed yourself for a blowout.

Solely myself?  No.  My performance, or lack thereof, as a contributing factor that lead to the blowout?  Absolutely.

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I want to know how you think skill based MM will work.  As I see it...

 

  1. Good players matched against good players... stats should balance at 50% w/r.
  2. learning players against learning players... stats should balance at 50% w/r.

So then MM will throw them all together again as w/r is 50%  as soon as players get a little above 50% or a little below 50%,  MM will play the RNG game until players get back to 50% w/r.

 

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5 minutes ago, chewonit said:

OK. Raise your hand if you've ever blamed yourself for a blowout.

I don't have to if I die first 😂. But I did say maybe in 4 games, oops, that's on me. But in all cases, it's because I messed up early.

For me, it's die quick from being focused, die later in a CV, and die in middle because I lost me patience and pushed. 

Tilting a bad player is not nearly as fun as tilting a purple one. Beat that purportedly super unicum clan in a battle and you have a crappy record, then they only blame themselves for failing. And it's back to the training room along with a detailed briefing of said crappy player so that clan can plot their revenge. If said crappy player still does beat more clan members, then the real Wrath of Khan stuff begins.

Skill based MM would never lead to that, so no fun had by all.

 

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The only way that I can see factoring skill in some manner that will work is skill balancing after the MM has chosen the players for the match which would reduce but not eliminate blow outs.

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1 minute ago, Pebcac said:

I want to know how you think skill based MM will work.  As I see it...

 

  1. Good players matched against good players... stats should balance at 50% w/r.
  2. learning players against learning players... stats should balance at 50% w/r.

So then MM will throw them all together again as w/r is 50%  as soon as players get a little above 50% or a little below 50%,  MM will play the RNG game until players get back to 50% w/r.

 

Precisely, an equilibrium effect would occur.

However, Randoms is being flooded with new players everyday. And top clans try to division and win the current games. But the losses outstrip the wins. So those clans currently dislike the new players. Saturation of the server means no guarantees. You can still lose if your team has reds in it. A division of 3 can't really carry if the other team focuses them, then finishes off the red stat players.

 

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4 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

The only way that I can see factoring skill in some manner that will work is skill balancing after the MM has chosen the players for the match which would reduce but not eliminate blow outs.

Someone has to lose. But just like in co-op, you can induce a blowout if you got cap dominance and you win by points before half of red is sunk.

That is the real problem. If such a thing is common now in Randoms, then farming may become extinct. Because only the players that got shots in before max points will get any significant XP and revenue.

WG wants fast random matches, or it causes problems for the server. Tanks gets priority server assets remember?

Long dragged out matches actually hurt the server. If you can get players to cycle through more games, that means more signals and camos. That costs player's money or resources. Force players to grind the resources is basically a runaway greenhouse effect. 

 

 

 

Edited by SteelRain_Rifleman

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1 minute ago, SteelRain_Rifleman said:

Someone has to lose. But just like in co-op, you can induce a blowout if you got cap dominance and you win by points before half of red is sunk.

That is the real problem. If such a thing is common now in Randoms, then farming may become extinct. Because only the players that got shots in before max points will get any significant XP and revenue.

 

Of course someone has to loose and blow outs happen even in King of the Sea and those are all better than average players. What skill balancing would do is reduce the rate.

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40 minutes ago, Ellyh said:

In order they will blame:

1) The matchmaker for not matching the teams well enough

2)Carriers

3) Thier DD players

4) anyone hugging the back line

5) island huggers

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35 minutes ago, Pebcac said:

I want to know how you think skill based MM will work.  As I see it...

 

  1. Good players matched against good players... stats should balance at 50% w/r.
  2. learning players against learning players... stats should balance at 50% w/r.

So then MM will throw them all together again as w/r is 50%  as soon as players get a little above 50% or a little below 50%,  MM will play the RNG game until players get back to 50% w/r.

 

I want to know how people can still be asking this question in 2020 when sbmm has been a common feature in dozens of games for decades.

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1 hour ago, DolphinPrincess said:

Probably Smurfs

Because that is exactly what is going to happen is WoWS introduces skill based matchmaking (aside from the fact that the game will die if it ever happens)

If you ever played any game with a elo system you will know that Smurfs are very common.

 

Also quite a fun fact: If you search the stats of anyone who wants skill based matchmaking on wows numbers, you will find that their skill level are all red to yellow

Because only bad players look to their team to blame for their lack of success.

Given how long a fresh account would need to play, to get anywhere CLOSE to the same ships as an older account, I sorta doubt we'd have much of a smurfing problem...not to mention premiums.    I sorta doubt people are gonna create a fresh account and pour hundreds of dollars into it just to get "better" games for a week.

The grind is too long on a fresh account to make something like Smurfing viable.  

Smurfing works in FPS games (say, Overwatch, which has a ton of them) because there isn't anything to unlock beyond cometic skins.

Edited by Zenn3k

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51 minutes ago, Pebcac said:

I want to know how you think skill based MM will work.  As I see it...

 

  1. Good players matched against good players... stats should balance at 50% w/r.
  2. learning players against learning players... stats should balance at 50% w/r.

So then MM will throw them all together again as w/r is 50%  as soon as players get a little above 50% or a little below 50%,  MM will play the RNG game until players get back to 50% w/r.

 

Wow......just what I want to see.  A game that no matter what I do I have a 50% win rate.   :Smile_facepalm:

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What would be used as a complaint?

 

"A Neptune in my T9 game? Don't you know the meta is 5 Alaskas? Uninstall now and get out of my game, scrub."

"Playing torpedo boats? Wow, thanks for throwing the game." 

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1 hour ago, Helstrem said:

I keep seeing demands for a skill based MM to be added to stop blowouts from happening.  Blowouts are barely affected by the lack of a skill based MM and would only be reduced by about 5%.  Blowouts are caused by the lack of comeback mechanisms to inhibit the snowball effect in the game.  Unicum vs Unicum teams still frequently result in blowouts.

That being the case, if WG caved and introduced a skill based MM what do you think players would pick as the new scapegoat as the cause of blowouts?  Personally I think that players would claim that the MM wasn't using the correct skills and needs to use whatever their pet theory says shows a player's real skill.

I doubt that the player base will ever accept that blowouts are built into the game with the way match rules are structured.

What is skill?  If you have a vague metric you get a vague MM response.....   Is Combat Effectiveness (CE) what we use for skill?  CE is an individual metric that applies to what "you do and how well you do it..."  Or, simply win and loss:   that is a plural definition, that others contribute to and not completely about your efforts....   Ever been in games that have ELO MM?  That have global ranking?  The complaints I've heard there are that those MM'ers "force players up in rank..."  And, to be honest, some do  to keep players happy.   The one that are "up or out", well, they frustrate the average players and often have long wait times.........

You are correct about "snowballing" or as I call it, the cascading error effect.   Which is caused by:  someone .............you fill this part in...........whom dies early which cause a concentration of focused effort now on fewer players and.............there it goes.   So why did that first player do something that bad???  Karma?  Inexperience?  A real mistake.........  It doesn't matter: because, it's going to happen in an ELO MM as well.......

Skill disparities only increase the odds of stomps happening.  And, in this game, even if we tried to come up with a good skill metric that highlighted individual skills only, what do we do the the other modes of play?  What if U wanted into a Random match as a COOP Main?  How would the ELO MM interpret the differences?

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