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TaxDollarsAtWork

Need help with North Carolina & USN BBs

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I recently got this ship and I've been struggling with it I just can't get it to work

I feel even when I win my impact in the game is so limited (such as damage and limited flexibility in positioning/pushing pulling)

Maybe its that I'm facing too many T IX & X ships?

I can't put my finger on it but making this cumbersome ship maneuverability wise and in general work seems like a Super Colorado to me at the minute.

Is it a play style issue as in something like my gun accuracy so I need to play this more like a sniper gun platform? Is that my gimmick? Everyone seems to have one expect the US BB.

Edited by TaxDollarsAtWork

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Manevuerability isn't an issue as WG greatly improved her a while bag.  Speed is merely okay for 27kts.

 

Gun accuracy isn't the problem either, she's 2.0 Sigma BB with 9 guns.

 

The real learning curve is getting to intermediate range, preferably 13-15km.  USN BBs excel in that ballpark.  Tier VIII USN BB shells have some "float" to them;  You have to get used to the increased amount of lead you do with them compared to other BB Lines, even within the USN BB Line itself.  When I play Montana, Iowa, Missouri, Yamato, or any other BB Line, I get used to a general feel of how much I need to lead my targets.  But when I switch back to Tier VIII USN BBs, I'm making the mistake of not leading them as much as I should.

 

Unless the target is not moving, Tier VIII USN BBs aren't Snipers.  They're intermediate ranged combatants.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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I got that notion from playing the Colorado and decided to spec them for stealth to get to that mid range

I still find the Super Heavy shell to be unsatisfactory at uh imparting enough damage ot flanking and broadside ships

I can't understand why citadels are such a rare occurrence and at times this thin armour impacts the aggression I wield early and late game wouldn't you agree in that sense they might be lacking some utility?

I sure don't like 70k ~ 50k damage games even if they're wins, or am I potentially at odds with the playstyle?

Lord knows I'm trying hard to learn and like these ships since they're so pretty.

Edited by TaxDollarsAtWork

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What do you mean, "Utility" for a Battleship?  Brawling?  Sniping?  USN BB Line aren't specialists, they're general use.

Well, if you're looking for a long range BB Line, that's ideally IJN.  If you want brawlers, that's German.  But you also got the RU BB Line where their accuracy improves the closer you get, particularly 14km and under.

 

The shells are good, I feared them when I was playing a Cruiser.  My best counter as a Cruiser against Tier VIII USN BBs was be at range, where the really floaty shells become a big problem for the BB player.  They have to lead like crazy and with how long the shells hang in the air, you had ample time to WASD and make them miss.  If I engaged VIII USN BBs at 15km or under, chances were, I'd be dead, because it got easier for them to hit a Cruiser.

 

If you're fighting angled Battleships, aim at the base of the superstructure.  With the way the shells arc, you can get some fat AP penetration damage.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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Utility I meant more like staying power in helping push the cap I guess that would be HP pool Heal and Armour not really secondary build

I tried some of it a few games seemed to work better than I expected in a T9/10 game

Scratch that

 

Edited by TaxDollarsAtWork

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2 hours ago, TaxDollarsAtWork said:

Utility I meant more like staying power in helping push the cap I guess that would be HP pool Heal and Armour not really secondary build

I tried some of it a few games seemed to work better than I expected in a T9/10 game

Scratch that

 

Send a replay or two to @Lord_Zath; he will analyze what you are doing wrong. Zath's YT channel should have quite a few replays of North Carolina in it that you can watch for hints and tips in the meantime.

ETA: Here's one of his streams that starts off with a North Carolina game. I'll shamelessly admit that it's my replay, but I do fairly well in her so maybe it will help.

 

Edited by Ensign_Cthulhu
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5 hours ago, TaxDollarsAtWork said:

I recently got this ship and I've been struggling with it I just can't get it to work

I feel even when I win my impact in the game is so limited (such as damage and limited flexibility in positioning/pushing pulling)

Maybe its that I'm facing too many T IX & X ships?

I can't put my finger on it but making this cumbersome ship maneuverability wise and in general work seems like a Super Colorado to me at the minute.

Is it a play style issue as in something like my gun accuracy so I need to play this more like a sniper gun platform? Is that my gimmick? Everyone seems to have one expect the US BB.

The USN BB gimmick is they don't have one. I know, shocking. But remember the USN is one of the original lines, back when WG was balancing ships around actual hard stats and not the new consumable of the week. So the US BBs don't have a gimmick. But that's not a bad thing, because they also don't really have a major weakness. They can do pretty much everything pretty well.

NC is a major shift in the USN line from CO. She has great concealment, very accurate guns, and good armor. The result is one of the best tier for tier BBs in the game. So yes, you do kind of play it like a sniper. Do not brawl in the the NC, she's not CO and this isn't T5 anymore. I'm going to guess that you're getting too close and just getting focused down. NC doesn't work like that. You sit a bit back. Not back of the map 20km. But a few km behind a cap (ideally one you have a DD in). That way you're not getting focused by everyone. Then you put those accurate 16in guns to work, blapping things. The shell velocity is slow, but if you learn to lead the accuracy will reward you. Yes, you will see T9 and T10, but you have T10 guns. The only difference between you and Iowa is 6knts and some HP (your guns are better on the NC actually). The key with NC (as with all BBs) is positioning. You need to find a spot where you can support your ships, deny positions to the enemy (especially cruisers), but not be focused down. BBs above all are map control ships, you can lock down a flank by preventing enemy ships from moving because they don't want to get nuked by you. When you start a game, ask yourself where you can go that will allow you be the biggest pain to the enemy. Think about where they have to go, then position yourself to have good shots when they go there. Think beyond "I'm going to shoot anything that comes into this cap." The key to being a good BB player is a good sense for battle flow and positioning. This only comes with practice. Don't get discouraged. All new ships have a learning curve, even more so when it's a huge style change. It took me almost the entire NC grind to finally get the ship to click, partly because just like you I was just learning high tier BB strategy. But keep at it. Every time you die, ask yourself why you died. Usually it's something you messed up. Recognize your mistakes, and don't make them again. NC is a great ship, with practice you'll get her.

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5 hours ago, TaxDollarsAtWork said:

Utility I meant more like staying power in helping push the cap I guess that would be HP pool Heal and Armour not really secondary build

I tried some of it a few games seemed to work better than I expected in a T9/10 game

Scratch that

 

US Battleships actually have pretty good characteristics in staying power, most especially High Tier:

 

North Carolina and every current High Tier USN BB have 38mm deck armor.  It's not 50mm like German BBs, but a lot of HE spammers will get non-pens when shells hit your deck.  152mm armed Worcester, Cleveland, Chapayev, 180mm armed Dmitri Donskoi, Talinn, Pyotr Bagration, etc. still only get 37mm HE Pen even if they take IFHE.  It would take rather large HE shells or gimmicked up HE Pen Cruisers (German Cruisers) to be able to HE Pen that deck armor.

Also, a normal 203mm HE shell has 34mm HE Pen.  But a CA player taking IFHE castrates his Fire Chances, he loses more because the penalty is % based.

 

Tech Tree USN BBs also get improved Repair Party, i.e. they get back more HP per charge.

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Consumables#Repair_Party

USN BBs also have the longest Damage Control Party active duration.

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Consumables#Damage_Control_Party

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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Appreciate the referral!  OP, feel free to e-mail me (see signature) or join my Discord https://discord.gg/5y2Nrx7 I stream Sundays 12-6pm on Twitch (twitch.tv/lord_zath) and post the replay streams on my YouTube after (youtube.com/lord_zath). 

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7 hours ago, TaxDollarsAtWork said:

I recently got this ship and I've been struggling with it I just can't get it to work

I feel even when I win my impact in the game is so limited (such as damage and limited flexibility in positioning/pushing pulling)

Maybe its that I'm facing too many T IX & X ships?

I can't put my finger on it but making this cumbersome ship maneuverability wise and in general work seems like a Super Colorado to me at the minute.

Is it a play style issue as in something like my gun accuracy so I need to play this more like a sniper gun platform? Is that my gimmick? Everyone seems to have one expect the US BB.

Post some replays.  So we can provide advice.

 

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In a Montana I once had a smolensk shoot me over 600 times without killing me. USN ships are fine for the most part.

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On 8/30/2020 at 3:58 AM, TaxDollarsAtWork said:

I can't understand why citadels are such a rare occurrence 

Because RNG, and ships' angles being deceiving on screen. Not to mention the possibility of underwater citadels.

I use the angle mod, and it surprises me how often a ship looks broadside, but is actually 20-30 degrees off.

I would say quit worrying about citadel hits. They're nice and all, and certainly something to go for when opportunity knocks, but regular pens, numerically unimpressive as they may be, are your bread and butter.

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On 8/30/2020 at 3:35 AM, TaxDollarsAtWork said:

I recently got this ship and I've been struggling with it I just can't get it to work

I feel even when I win my impact in the game is so limited (such as damage and limited flexibility in positioning/pushing pulling)

Maybe its that I'm facing too many T IX & X ships?

I can't put my finger on it but making this cumbersome ship maneuverability wise and in general work seems like a Super Colorado to me at the minute.

Is it a play style issue as in something like my gun accuracy so I need to play this more like a sniper gun platform? Is that my gimmick? Everyone seems to have one expect the US BB.

How dare you, Sir! Colorado? COLORADO?! You compare the majesty of North Carolina to that floating turd? The audacity...

Your disgusting profanity aside, there are a couple things you can do. First, you don’t need to worry about secondaries, so that frees you up for damage control or utility.  I go utility myself, preferring to lower detection range and enhance my AA bubble a bit. Concealment that competes with (or betters) some of the cruisers in your MM spread is nothing to sneeze at. If you have a 19 pointer, you don’t even have to choose...you can have it all! Fine, you can have a decent selection of utility and survivability skills.  

2/3 of your fire power front means you don’t give up as much as 4x turret BB when you angle in. You can wiggle that third turret out pretty effectively at mid range - your ideal zone as has been noted. The maneuverability really isn’t bad. If it’s not your cup of tea, stop here...it only gets worse. Do angle in though, because your cit is juicy and it will get popped. Concealment is useful on larger maps to get turned around without getting dead. It’s a useful guide...spec’d for it, if you can’t go dark you are too close (unless your pushing/bullying).
 

The hard part is positioning and picking targets. The reward is accurate guns that really deliver when RNG doesn’t troll you.

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I've not found this medium range + stealth build to work, it just results in the NC getting farmed to death or randomly plane spotted and getting cross fired by multiple battleships cruisers and destroyers. 

24 knots compared to 21 knots doesn't at all feel like an improvement either when you consider you're at a tier where the average BB speed sits between 29 and 33 knots.

Armour seems relatively worse too in comparison as its a slight improvement but now is thrown up against a lot of much larger guns and better armoured ships that can easily close the gap and kill you as you try to mount a defense on a cap.

 

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Never been able to get NC to work either.   Massachusetts?  Sure, no problem.   But I fire and fire and fire NC's guns and get nothing out of them, put me off the line entirely.   

There is really no reason to play any other BB line than the Russian line, its superior to every other BB line by quite a large margin, especially the American line.   More accurate (even at long range despite claims otherwise by WG), way better armor, faster recharging repair party (the limited charges is hardly ever a factor), Russian unique Captain works perfectly with the line (William Halsey is pretty awful), Faster, and better Concealment.   The only thing the USN line has better is AA, which everyone loves to claim is useless.   

With Vlad, Sovetsky Soyuz, and Kremlin in the game, there is basically no reason to play NC, Iowa, or Montana. 

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@Lord_Zath is terrific at this, and will probably do a much better and fancier job of this than me. But I did take a look at this game:

6 hours ago, TaxDollarsAtWork said:

The biggest problem I see is that you play too safely and passively. Remember, as a BB your job is as much taking damage as dishing it out. If the enemy is shooting you, then your cruisers or DDs aren't getting shot. Don't forget that you can go bow-on, and nobody Yamato sisters can pen you, while you still have 2/3 of your firepower (and often enough it's possible to shoot the third turret at the enemies to the side.

Second problem I see is with planning ahead. All too often you head somewhere, then turn around and have to traverse the turrets; you get blocked from shooting by islands, etc.

Third problem is aim. All in all it's okay, but could be better. Practice a bit in the training room. And don't forget that ripple fire helps a lot against dodging ships.

Some additional notes with approximate timestamps:

  • 17 - positioning. Why were you going middle, what were you hoping to accomplish? Think ahead.
  • 13 - target prioritization. You shoot at a BB 18 km away, instead of shooting at a DD that's 10km away. Prioritize DDs, it doesn't matter if you have AP loaded, overpens still hurt a lot
  • 12:44 - why aren't you repairing the two fires immediately? Also, you need FP
  • 10 - why aren't you using your heal immediately? Pay attention to consumables
  • 9 - note, more than half the match has passed, and you're at almost 100% HP. Generally, this isn't good.
  • 8 - situational awareness. You should understand that the DD will emerge from the other side of the island soon, and load HE instead of AP

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15 minutes ago, vak_ said:

 

More aggressive use of the HP like you recommended ends up like this

As for aim the guns are just cumbersome and awkward up close and when the enemy is at certain angles at close range

20200831_233907_PASB012-North-Carolina-1945_15_NE_north.wowsreplay

 

When I went mid I potentially wanted to cross fire into A cap

Fair point on that, I should have tried to deal with the DD, my team even calls it out multiple times

 

Edited by TaxDollarsAtWork

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Watched this one too:

6 hours ago, TaxDollarsAtWork said:

Also want to know how to counter what ever this was

20200831_202735_PASB012-North-Carolina-1945_22_tierra_del_fuego.wowsreplay

Same problems. Playing too safe at the start, wrong positioning, problems with aim.

Additional notes:

18 - don't hesitate. You had a great shot at broadside mass lined up. You let it go, then he went behind terrain, then you missed

15:44 -- target prioritization. DD was 12km away, you shot a BB at 15km instead

14:40 (then 12:50, 12:20) -- you're aiming with AP for T8 BB bows, which you cannot pen. Learn about overpen.

14 - positioning. What did you think was going to happen when you stopped at the cap with two DDs and a bunch of other enemies there? You're lucky that Littorio gave you a foolish broadside, otherwise you'd die without doing much damage

13 - note, you're still almost at 100% HP after seven minutes.

 

Also, both game you provided had high 80s damage, while your average is 62k. Don't know if it was on purpose or not, but you should provide all game examples, not just ones where you think you've done well

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45 minutes ago, TaxDollarsAtWork said:

More aggressive use of the HP like you recommended ends up like this

20200831_233907_PASB012-North-Carolina-1945_15_NE_north.wowsreplay

In this game you put yourself in a position where you will inevitably without doing much. There is a golden middle between playing way too passively and doing what amounts to a pixel boat suicide. That middle may be hard to find, but that's what makes one a good BB player.

Some notes:

18 - take a salvo immediately when your two front turrets are lined up at an enemy cruiser. Don't wait to swing the third one for a full salvo, because the enemy might disappear, which is what happened here

16:40 - sloppy positioning. You basically rush towards a cap with little screen and your teammates not following you, despite knowing that there is an enemy DD there, and then stop while broadsiding the DD that's 8km away as well as one enemy BB. This is what I mean by 'suiciding'

15 - more sloppy positioning, or angling, to be precise. If you were bow-in between the enemy BB on the left and two on the right they wouldn't get full pens on you, plus you'd present a smaller target profile to a DD.

Just look at the map shortly before you die. Ask yourself: is this a good position to be in? What did you hope to accomplish here?

YGgTW3N.jpg

45 minutes ago, TaxDollarsAtWork said:

As for aim the guns are just cumbersome and awkward up close and when the enemy is at certain angles at close range

Your aim is off at mid ranges as well. This is especially noticeable when the enemy is angled towards you and presenting a broadside, but you aim above the waterline. I noticed this in all three games.

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12 minutes ago, vak_ said:

Also, both game you provided had high 80s damage, while your average is 62k. Don't know if it was on purpose or not, but you should provide all game examples, not just ones where you think you've done well

Because the games with 34k damage end up on the very very short side (dead within 2 min) and I'm not sure there is much constructive that can come from it aside form just dont get shot

but if you insist

 

20200901_000302_PASB012-North-Carolina-1945_23_Shards.wowsreplay

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3 minutes ago, vak_ said:

In this game you put yourself in a position where you will inevitably without doing much. There is a golden middle between playing way too passively and  doing what amounts to a pixel boat suicide. That middle may be hard top find, but that';s what makes one a good BB player.

Some notes:

18 - take a salvo immediately when your two front turrets are lined up at an enemy cruiser. Don't wait to swing the third one for a full salvo, because the enemy might disappear, which is what happened here

16:40 - sloppy positioning. You basically rush towards a cap with no screen, despite knowing that there is a DD there, and then stop while broadsiding the DD that's 8km away and one enemy BB. This is what I mean by 'suiciding'

15 - more sloppy positioning, or angling, to be precise. If you were bow-in between the enemy BB on the left and two on the right they wouldn't get full pens on you, plus you'd present a smaller target profile to a DD.

Just look at the map shortly before you die. Ask yourself: is this a good position to be in? What could you accomplish by doing this?

Your aim is off at mid ranges as well. This is especially noticeable when the enemy is angled towards you and presenting a broadside, but you aim above the waterline. I noticed this in all three games.

Yes my aim with these guns is poor they are not at all like the Italian guns I am more used to.

About your comments at the 16 minute mark, I realised that but if I did turn out what would happen is I show broadside to countless BBs and other ships and get to die much sooner so knowing that I tried to stay there as long as I could to buy enough time to allow for my team to do something like escape to another flank that might be more lightly defended

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time to join professor flamus class...bama and nc are veeeeeery similar....listen to master flamu.....he will guide you well..

 

 

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36 minutes ago, TaxDollarsAtWork said:

I don't see how else I could position in a way that wouldn't have let that flank collapse

1) You could have gotten there faster. Note that Mass was in the thick of it (though he too had questionable positioning) while you were still loitering in the middle.

2) More importantly, flanks may and often do collapse, but there is no need to die on that hill without accomplishing much -- which is exactly what will happen if you stop alone in front of a bunch of enemy ships that are pushing. Run away, while presenting an angled profile and firing at the enemy. Do damage, force the enemy to chase you, distract them. Give your other flank a chance to push through and win.

29 minutes ago, TaxDollarsAtWork said:

Because the games with 34k damage end up on the very very short side (dead within 2 min) and I'm not sure there is much constructive that can come from it aside form just dont get shot

but if you insist

This isn't true. Games where you fail to accomplish much are often very interesting to analyze and see what can be improved.

For example here, the advice isn't "don't get shot", the advice is "angle correctly when an enemy BB is shooting you, instead of trying to unmask the third turret and eating lots of pens for free" (16th minute), and also "don't slow down to a crawl when there is both Oster and Holland near you." The latter is actually a common theme I'm noticing in all three games. You seem to like to slow down near the enemy, and then don't angle quite right when you do that. Make sure you understand how penetration mechanics work in game, knowing this is bread and butter of a good BB player. Refer to WoWS wiki, they have good articles on the subject.

 

Again, Zath is much better at this than I am, so sorry if I'm just coming across as "hurr durr, get your positioning in order". Planning ahead, noticing where all the ships are and guessing how things will look a few minutes from now is the most important skill in the game, and one that's the hardest to master. Aiming and angling is trivial in comparison. Positioning isn't something that's simple to correct with a few pointers, just play, gain experience, and get better. Maybe when you play try asking yourself from time to time "how will things look like in a minute or two, and how does that mash with what I'm doing right now"

 

By the way, what are your captain skills? What modules are you running?

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