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T8 to T10 Random Battles are Broken

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Random Battles are broken. There are too many blowout games in the upper tiers. The blowout games are making the game boring no matter which team you are on. Another issue with the game is T9 and T10 ships are now way to overpowering to play T8 ship. The link is to a video from Sea Lord Mountbatten that explains the issue really well.

 

Edited by DropBearAttack
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He has zero clue what he is talking about.

most people rather blame the MM however NEVER look at their own stats. Do 50k avg damage a game in a Montana with 400 battles played...Ever think for a second you might be the issue and not the team?

Get real.

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25 minutes ago, Battleship_Constitution said:

He has zero clue what he is talking about.

most people rather blame the MM however NEVER look at their own stats. Do 50k avg damage a game in a Montana with 400 battles played...Ever think for a second you might be the issue and not the team?

Get real.

Dude, they're one in the same problem.  A skill mismatch problem.  The 50k ave damage Montana player definitely isn't good.  But if he's  thrown together with a bunch of other weaker players and facing a team of better players, the problem isn't  that HE's bad.  The problem is that far too many players on his team aren't good (including him).  And if the goal is to reduce blowouts, you shouldn't bother looking at the individual players and blaming them.  The root cause of the problem is  the skill mismatch.  And the fix for that problem is to reduce the skill mismatch.  And that's done through MM.

Working on improving one's game doesn't hurt, but the reality is that there are a LOT of players who are pretty casual and don't give a flip about spending lots of time playing the game just for the sake of getting better.  They just want to log on, play a few games and have some fun, and maybe win some games.  But right now, the deck is stacked against them.  And WG seems to simply not care.

 

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I will probably get ripped for this but...Not all players are at the level of a Mountbatten, Notser etc, but still want to play high tier ships. Nothing wrong with that. Not everyone can play wows 3-4-5 hours a day to grind through a ships line. If a person buys a premium, high tier ships and gets thumped game after game, they tire of it and move back to the lower tiers. Lesson learned, so what...Matchmaking: why should a tier 8 ship have to face of against tier 10 ships? Hard to gain experience and have fun when you're out matched by higher tier ships. If your're  in a tier 8 ships, then you face off against tier 7-8-9 ships only. And MM should based mainly on skill level. How many times have people played random and found themself facing off against player's with 10,000+ games+?

HE spammers: Smolensk can be a pain, but I disagree with Monty. For the Smolensk to use all those HE guns, it has to show a lot of broadside and that's lethal for it. I have faced a Smolensk and the first thing I do, if it's alone, is to go after it. Every Smolensk has ended up running and that means it cannot bring all it's guns to bear. If it stays mostly broad side, then it's asking for deep trouble. Even if it sits in smoke, it can't stay there forever and HE spam.  Also, there is trouble when some player's turn and run, leaving a lone ship to fight it out against multiple enemies, but what can you do? Shame them in chat? It happens and will continue to happen.  One of the things about wows is that people can pick different ties to play at. Not everyone has, or can play the high tiers. I do not so well in Random, I admit it, but I'm trying.

 

But I see a main problem with the MM, nerfed AA and many players thinking that they don't need a team and can win all by themselves. CV's? There have been nerfed badly for the most part. I mean, two planes with one torp each is that great of a threat? Even many Dive bombers/rockets can have little to offer. The problem is wows introducing paper super CV's.  Anyway, all people play differently and that's the nature of people. It's also wows bringing in super ships that never existed that causes too much grief. There are already, what? over 350 ships to play. How many ships can person play at one time? So some people demand more ships, then whine when a paper super ship appears. Have wows make changes to MM, AA, super CV's and such first.

 

I'm probably wrong, but what are the forums for?

 

Edited by Seawolf148
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I don't know, to me T10 is really broken but I can't really say why.

For example, I do well in Daring and can actually carry a game sometimes and have decent winrate that is far above my avg. winrate etc. However, recently in Des Moines over the last dozens of matches - around 50 by now - I can't get wins for crap. While my average damage has not changed significantly I can't get a win in her what so ever, currently sitting at just around 50% and slowly falling. I was really 'good' by my standards in her with 55+% WR over 200+ games, but lately I have blowout after blowout, bad luck eating random citadels and just being deleted by CVs left and right. It is tilting me right now so hard, especially since I can't figure out what I am doing different compared to before when I was doing fine.

So I think he has a point when he is saying high tier, especially T10 is broken right now although some of the reasons maybe debatable.

  • While technically correct that people can get to T10 in 40 games it takes them more like 200 games since they have to do some coop first, get credits (which takes longer than XP) and generally don't have so many flags, camos etc.
  • AA is indeed broken, though the issue he describes is not my main complaint. Certainly not helping though.
  • HE spam, has always been around before Corona
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12 hours ago, Crucis said:

Dude, they're one in the same problem.  A skill mismatch problem.  The 50k ave damage Montana player definitely isn't good.  But if he's  thrown together with a bunch of other weaker players and facing a team of better players, the problem isn't  that HE's bad.  The problem is that far too many players on his team aren't good (including him).  And if the goal is to reduce blowouts, you shouldn't bother looking at the individual players and blaming them.  The root cause of the problem is  the skill mismatch.  And the fix for that problem is to reduce the skill mismatch.  And that's done through MM.

Working on improving one's game doesn't hurt, but the reality is that there are a LOT of players who are pretty casual and don't give a flip about spending lots of time playing the game just for the sake of getting better.  They just want to log on, play a few games and have some fun, and maybe win some games.  But right now, the deck is stacked against them.  And WG seems to simply not care.

 

And there's nothing wrong with a person who wants to play casual. Some people have to realize that they are many player's that just want to play a few games and have fun. That's where changing the MM comes in. Something wows has ignored. It's really not always the ships, or HE spam etc....The MM is a very big problem.

Edited by Seawolf148
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T8 MM is the best its ever been. Quit whining. WG cave in and give the players what they want and it's STILL not good enough. The game will never get better than this because the garbage players who are bad refuse to learn and get better. It's easier to blame others than self evaluate. 

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Just now, Seawolf148 said:

The MM is a very big problem.

The MM is not going to get changed, not only because WG is unwilling to do so (allegedly) but also because it would be a mess for players. On what basis would you measure skill? WR? That would lead to weird situations as if you face of players with similar WR (e.g. 60%) some of them have to lose while others win and they will quickly trend towards 50%. Then everyone is in the same bracket again.

Second much bigger issue is the wait time in game, as finding enough players for you to play against already takes 10s of seconds, now imagine half or more of the players are not up to your specs (i.e. below or above your personal average) so you will have to wait even longer. This would also punish exceptional players (both good and bad) with very long wait times, while at the same time give you little in the way of learning as you will never be challenged by someone above your skill.

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5 minutes ago, Seawolf148 said:

And there's wrong with a person who wants to play casual. Some people have to realize that they are many player's that just want to play a few games and have fun. That's where changing the MM comes in. Something wows has ignored. It's really not always the ships, or HE spam etc....The MM is a very big problem.

I think that you need to edit this sentence because it makes no sense.

As for the rest, the problem I have with casuals is that they often don't seem to care about winning,  and therefore selfishly ruin the fun of those who do care about playing to win.  The solution to this is simple.  If you don't care about winning, play coop.

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3 minutes ago, shinytrashcan said:

The MM is not going to get changed, not only because WG is unwilling to do so (allegedly) but also because it would be a mess for players. On what basis would you measure skill? WR? That would lead to weird situations as if you face of players with similar WR (e.g. 60%) some of them have to lose while others win and they will quickly trend towards 50%. Then everyone is in the same bracket again.

Second much bigger issue is the wait time in game, as finding enough players for you to play against already takes 10s of seconds, now imagine half or more of the players are not up to your specs (i.e. below or above your personal average) so you will have to wait even longer. This would also punish exceptional players (both good and bad) with very long wait times, while at the same time give you little in the way of learning as you will never be challenged by someone above your skill.

You can't use WR as the skill metric, because once SBMM was instituted, all WRs would start moving towards 50%.  

The best metric possible, IMO, would be average base XP (ABXP)  ABXP would have WR somewhat embedded into it simply because you earn more  BXP for wins than for losses.   But also, ABXP is a solid metric that deals in measurable data points, i.e. damage, kills, spotting, etc.  

I disagree that "exceptional players" would be punished.  To create a simple example, if you have one team of 2 50% WR players (yes, WR isn't a good metric, but bear with me), and you have a 60% WR and a 40% WR player in the queue, just match up them up because they average out to a 50% for their team, same as the other team.  This isn't the real difficulty.  The really difficult situation would be the  3 ship div of  super unicums. But even then, the solution is pretty similar.  Just stack their team with a bunch of weaker players to bring their average skill level into balance with the other team's average skill level.

I don't think that it's quite as difficult as some make it out to be.  As for time in queue, how many times have you seen posters here say they'd be willing to wait a little while longer to get fairer, more balanced teams?  I've seen it a lot.

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I think you guys have missed the point.
He says the game has become boring. It has.
He says the tier 10 ships are stronger than the tier 8 ships. They are.
'Git Gud', is not going to fix either one of the issues.

NoZoup made a recent video asking for more modes. I agree.
Ranked Sprint was fun, but ended too soon.
Rogue Wave was fun, didn't get it this year.
Space Battles was fun, didn't get it this year.

Dockyard is not a game mode, it's just another way to spend money.
Research Bureau is not a game mode, it's just another way to grind.
Both are boring.

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Randoms is NOT meant to be competitve. You want team work Play clan wars. You assume people like me care about a win....Yeah no. Dont care if i win or lose in a random. In the end it's an exp grind. Dont care if you want to win.

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4 minutes ago, Battleship_Constitution said:

Randoms is NOT meant to be competitve. You want team work Play clan wars.

I personally don't mean competitive, but you are playing a game with a goal that is winning the game. You don't have to become the greatest of them all or crush your team ever harder, but just put your heart in a little as you have a common goal and that is fulfilling the objective and win the game. What is the point of playing that the game if you don't enjoy it and want to win?

If randoms would just be an xp grind to me I would just build a bot and set it up to run in the background. I mean really, at that point it becomes just a challenge of how to play the system to do the least work, if it is just grinding to you and you don't care about the game. Playing a game without the intention to at least try to win is defeating the purpose, at least to me.

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59 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Dude, they're one in the same problem.  A skill mismatch problem.  The 50k ave damage Montana player definitely isn't good.  But if he's  thrown together with a bunch of other weaker players and facing a team of better players, the problem isn't  that HE's bad.  The problem is that far too many players on his team aren't good (including him).  And if the goal is to reduce blowouts, you shouldn't bother looking at the individual players and blaming them.  The root cause of the problem is  the skill mismatch.  And the fix for that problem is to reduce the skill mismatch.  And that's done through MM.

Working on improving one's game doesn't hurt, but the reality is that there are a LOT of players who are pretty casual and don't give a flip about spending lots of time playing the game just for the sake of getting better.  They just want to log on, play a few games and have some fun, and maybe win some games.  But right now, the deck is stacked against them.  And WG seems to simply not care.

 

Skill-based matchmaking has its own share of problems. COD Modern Warfare is a great example of this. They implemented skill based matchmaking, but there are many players (including myself) who are unhappy with what they did, as it forced better players to try harder and solidified a stagnant meta. In actuality, I feel random matchmaking is better for this game, as skill / WR based matchmaking can become too contrived and cause grief for players on both ends of the skill spectrum.

If skill based matchmaking was a thing, then the "fun" aspect of randoms would be taken away. 

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4 minutes ago, turtle6375 said:

If skill based matchmaking was a thing, then the "fun" aspect of randoms would be taken away. 

Well I will say, I did not have a lot of fun recently anyway, so I would be willing to give it a try at least.

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1 minute ago, shinytrashcan said:

Well I will say, I did not have a lot of fun recently anyway, so I would be willing to give it a try at least.

Loss streaks and unfun blowouts are an inevitable part of Randoms. Heck, I went for a massive loss streak myself the other day with no respite. On days like those, it's better to take a deep breath and try another game :)

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Just now, turtle6375 said:

Loss streaks and unfun blowouts are an inevitable part of Randoms

my current record is the atrocious 39.6% WR over 48 battles in Des Moines: https://na.wows-numbers.com/player/1036239484,shinytrashcan/

I have no clue what changed, but I used to like that ship and now I am almost ready to sell it....

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Just now, shinytrashcan said:

my current record is the atrocious 39.6% WR over 48 battles in Des Moines: https://na.wows-numbers.com/player/1036239484,shinytrashcan/

I have no clue what changed, but I used to like that ship and now I am almost ready to sell it....

It's definitely painful when it happens. I went on a 13% WR over the course of 15 battles or something in EnterpriseEnterprise, for goodness sake! I definitely threw a few, but the amount of blowouts in a row can definitely be shocking and enraging. 

It's an issue, but I don't think SBMM will make things better. It might get rid of the blowout problem, but other equally vexing predicaments will emerge.

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Last night a buddy I was divisioned with, died with zero damage in his Fletcher... He came in fifth on the team, I topped our team with 70k in a Saint-Louis. 

There is definitely a problem with blowouts, but I can't honestly say what would fix it. 

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12 minutes ago, turtle6375 said:

It's an issue, but I don't think SBMM will make things better. It might get rid of the blowout problem, but other equally vexing predicaments will emerge.

You are right probably, though I don't know any better answer to how to improve the high tier situation.

The game is at it's best when you have close and engaging battles, the kind where you don't even care that it was a loss. But when you are in a game and look at it after 5 minutes and realize you never stood a chance (or the red team is just gone)it just kills it for me. As I said earlier, if it is a numbers & participation game instead of fun and lighthearted competition I would just treat it as such and start problem solving instead of 'playing'.

I don't know if 'making the grind longer' or forcing players to learn more is the answer to this, or whether this is just all the noobs from recent months pouring into T10 but something is off.

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The core problem is offense being much better than defense in this game so a couple of early kills on DDs becomes a snowball of fail and obliteration.

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1 minute ago, shinytrashcan said:

You are right probably, though I don't know any better answer to how to improve the high tier situation.

The game is at it's best when you have close and engaging battles, the kind where you don't even care that it was a loss. But when you are in a game and look at it after 5 minutes and realize you never stood a chance (or the red team is just gone)it just kills it for me. As I said earlier, if it is a numbers & participation game instead of fun and lighthearted competition I would just treat it as such and start problem solving instead of 'playing'.

I don't know if 'making the grind longer' or forcing players to learn more is the answer to this, or whether this is just all the noobs from recent months pouring into T10 but something is off.

I agree. I don't know of a fix either besides for bad players to 'gid gud,' but that's not constructive or helpful at all.

The blowout problem is then exacerbated by the slow speed of ships / relatively lengthy time of games. In other similar games, such as WOT, blowouts are less of a problem, since once one team has momentum, they usually go and stomp the other team immediately. Games cycle through very quickly, so blowouts are not as painful. 

And honestly, some players just don't care about learning; I'm good friends with some players in WOWS (in-game and IRL), but they simply don't care about getting better; they're just here to have fun. Mentalities like these aren't necessarily bad, but I can see how they could contribute to this problem.

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4 minutes ago, Ellyh said:

The core problem is offense being much better than defense in this game so a couple of early kills on DDs becomes a snowball of fail and obliteration.

no, you have that backwards.

This game heavily favors camping

It is far easier to extend too far on a offensive flank than it is to do on the defensive side.

This is exactly the reason 3-4 well setup ships can easily defend against 7+ ships.

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11 minutes ago, turtle6375 said:

And honestly, some players just don't care about learning; I'm good friends with some players in WOWS (in-game and IRL), but they simply don't care about getting better; they're just here to have fun. Mentalities like these aren't necessarily bad, but I can see how they could contribute to this problem.

I agree we have to respect different mentalities in the game, but to me this becomes an issue when once mentalities clash or interfere with each other. Or in other words: Who's fun is more important, the fun of the person finding enjoyment in improving constantly, caring about the game, trying to win? Or the person who is genuinely just enjoying exploding pixel boats? If ones fun becomes dependent on the others, or even worse mutually exclusive this becomes an issue.

In WOWS, if a significant part of the playerbase is not interested in learning the game or improving at all, this starts to affect the one who do care about that. So the question is then, what can or even should we do about it?

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