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Canadian_Reaper

How do you DD vs Rocket Planes?

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Hey All

Just coming back after a long break (pretty much before the CV rework) and trying to play DD's

But while I get avoiding Torp Planes and (to a lesser degree) Bombers, rocket planes seem to be a huge issue for me.

The last minute turns/speed adjustments that sometimes work vs bombers don't seem to work, or rather, I "only" take 3K damage when I dodge, rather than the 5-7 I seem to get hit for if I can't.

Given that planes seem to have 2 rocket loads (I don't play CV;s at all) this generally seems to take a minimum of 6k from me , which is...excessive for a player of my limited skills.

Just trying to figure out how to mitigate this damage in my DD's.

Not looking for the "CV's are OP" arguments-as it stands I completely believe they are unbalanced vs most ships, but they're in the game, so I've got to learn to not take damage from the rocket planes. AS I said, seem to be able to sometimes dodge the bombers, but I can't seem to do the same vs the rocket users. 

Thanks!

 

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Turn your AA off (toggle with 'p')...your air detection gets much smaller. It helps if you are not spotted. Plus, for most DDs, your AA wont shoot down enough planes to outweigh the problems of being spotted.

Play a bit less aggressively early on...see where the planes go before charging forward. The responsibility for early scouting is the CVs, not yours. In fact, a lot of spotting responsibilities is no longer yours.

If you are spotted and attacked by the planes, turn into or away from the rocket planes. They do the most damage to your broadside.

Edited by Daniel_Allan_Clark
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9 minutes ago, Canadian_Reaper said:

Hey All

Just coming back after a long break (pretty much before the CV rework) and trying to play DD's

But while I get avoiding Torp Planes and (to a lesser degree) Bombers, rocket planes seem to be a huge issue for me.

The last minute turns/speed adjustments that sometimes work vs bombers don't seem to work, or rather, I "only" take 3K damage when I dodge, rather than the 5-7 I seem to get hit for if I can't.

Given that planes seem to have 2 rocket loads (I don't play CV;s at all) this generally seems to take a minimum of 6k from me , which is...excessive for a player of my limited skills.

Just trying to figure out how to mitigate this damage in my DD's.

Not looking for the "CV's are OP" arguments-as it stands I completely believe they are unbalanced vs most ships, but they're in the game, so I've got to learn to not take damage from the rocket planes. AS I said, seem to be able to sometimes dodge the bombers, but I can't seem to do the same vs the rocket users. 

Thanks!

Some basic tips are:

1) Rockets are now designed to use against broadside targets.  Try to point your bow or stern toward the planes for reduced damage.  Some will still occur, but it will absolutely be less than what it could be.

2) Never be afraid to smoke if you are spotted.  Carriers cannot see through smoke.  While it hurts to lose a cooldown, you can usually leave the smoke after about 20-30 seconds.  While your smoke is still down, try to work your way back to friendly ships that you can use for cover until the smoke is back up.

3) Keep your AA off.  Destroyer AA isn't meant to solo kill waves of planes.  The AA allows you to discourage planes that are lingering over your smoke, or to help out with some extra damage against bombers/torpedo planes they are going after your allies.  Don't use your AA for rocket planes as it will help the Carrier to see you and land better attacks.  (Advanced players can turn their AA on and off while playing with aerial detection ranges... but if you're still settling back in it's easiest to just leave the AA off to keep your aerial detection as low as possible).

4) If you don't have smoke and rocket planes are overhead... charge them with your AA off.  By sailing toward the planes, you can often go unspotted while they fly away to turn around... and then you surprise them by being too close for them to shoot as they come back in.  There's a "warmup" period to the rockets before they can fire, so you can cause the CV to overfly you multiple times by sailing AT the planes.

5) Lastly, while there's a CV in the match your role is different.  Some DDs can act as independently as they could before (British, and others with rapid smokes), but most DDs will need to be closer to teammates in general to avoid being caught out and isolated.  The more you play, the more you will feel out the different role/positioning that will keep you alive and in the fight.

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Asking a sensible question how how to deal with a broken mechanic, is like being asked to push crapup a hill with your nose.  It may be do-able, but its a unpleasant experience.  WG has been asked to provided players with the proverbial shovel to deal with planes.  So far the only answer from the community are  asinine, e.g

  1. angle - like it will make a difference
  2. Smoke early so you cant use smoke later on to help conceal cruisers (or assist with caps and/or get-aways)
  3. Don't press W

 

Sometimes rockets do miss... yeah right.

 

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1 hour ago, Laser_Beam said:

angle - like it will make a difference

With a horizontal reticle, narrowing your target profile can't help but help. It's math.

1 hour ago, Laser_Beam said:
  1. Smoke early so you cant use smoke later on to help conceal cruisers (or assist with caps and/or get-aways)

Wait, you mean you might actually have to make a decision about how to spend limited resources? Oh, the horror....

1 hour ago, Laser_Beam said:
  1. Don't press W

Not sure what you're getting at here. Are you saying people tell you not to move?

 

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1 hour ago, Canadian_Reaper said:

Hey All

Just coming back after a long break (pretty much before the CV rework) and trying to play DD's

But while I get avoiding Torp Planes and (to a lesser degree) Bombers, rocket planes seem to be a huge issue for me.

The last minute turns/speed adjustments that sometimes work vs bombers don't seem to work, or rather, I "only" take 3K damage when I dodge, rather than the 5-7 I seem to get hit for if I can't.

Given that planes seem to have 2 rocket loads (I don't play CV;s at all) this generally seems to take a minimum of 6k from me , which is...excessive for a player of my limited skills.

Just trying to figure out how to mitigate this damage in my DD's.

Not looking for the "CV's are OP" arguments-as it stands I completely believe they are unbalanced vs most ships, but they're in the game, so I've got to learn to not take damage from the rocket planes. AS I said, seem to be able to sometimes dodge the bombers, but I can't seem to do the same vs the rocket users. 

Thanks!

 

Hello captain,  My youtube channel has multiple videos on dealing with cvs as a dd player....my Youtube channel is Meta_Man2002 check them out, some have found them pretty useful. Please subscribe if you find them helpful....good luck captain. 

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13 minutes ago, TorpedoBonk said:

Hope they are bad CV players. Really, that's it. 

Nah, you just have to hope that they're not good, and that you're paying attention.

That of course depends on your definition of "bad". If you consider me a bad CV player, (which I'm ok with) then hoping for a bad CV player is like hoping for sunny weather in LA. Because all those things that get mentioned will lower the damage you receive from me.

Edited by Skpstr
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2 hours ago, Canadian_Reaper said:

Hey All

Just coming back after a long break (pretty much before the CV rework) and trying to play DD's

But while I get avoiding Torp Planes and (to a lesser degree) Bombers, rocket planes seem to be a huge issue for me.

The last minute turns/speed adjustments that sometimes work vs bombers don't seem to work, or rather, I "only" take 3K damage when I dodge, rather than the 5-7 I seem to get hit for if I can't.

Given that planes seem to have 2 rocket loads (I don't play CV;s at all) this generally seems to take a minimum of 6k from me , which is...excessive for a player of my limited skills.

Just trying to figure out how to mitigate this damage in my DD's.

Not looking for the "CV's are OP" arguments-as it stands I completely believe they are unbalanced vs most ships, but they're in the game, so I've got to learn to not take damage from the rocket planes. AS I said, seem to be able to sometimes dodge the bombers, but I can't seem to do the same vs the rocket users. 

Thanks!

 

Sad days.

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OP - one word

1200px-Halland_wows_main.jpg

Halland.

Interestingly enough, if one can believe citations, TWO were produced. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halland-class_destroyer

"general purpose ships with strong anti-submarine and anti-surface warfare armament. They were re-fitted in the 1960s and re-armed with Saab Robot 08 anti-shipping missiles (a missile derivative of the Nord Aviation CT20 drone). The Colombian ships had a more anti-surface focused armament."

This explains of course their very overactive and over achieving AA as in many cases they are 20 to 30 years more advanced than the carriers/planes they fight against.  

They could be whatever WoWS wanted to be; since WoWS was planning on further carrier expansion, what better way to ensure demand than to kit them out for anti-AA role, one of at least two or more roles it could play? 

 

Additionally - testing is ongoing as we type (perhaps it is done) on changes that will dramatically effect the ship/carrier plane interaction. It may be possible very soon for a destroyer to literally forget about carrier planes - as you simply will not be worth the effort. 

Edited by Herr_Reitz
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yes in some cases dont rush in unless you get fighteer cover from the carrier, ask for it as some dont give it.

stay closer to the cruisers at the start of the game  as they move for better AA cover till the enemy carrier gets distracted later by the big ships.

 

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2 hours ago, Canadian_Reaper said:

Hey All

Just coming back after a long break (pretty much before the CV rework) and trying to play DD's

But while I get avoiding Torp Planes and (to a lesser degree) Bombers, rocket planes seem to be a huge issue for me.

The last minute turns/speed adjustments that sometimes work vs bombers don't seem to work, or rather, I "only" take 3K damage when I dodge, rather than the 5-7 I seem to get hit for if I can't.

Given that planes seem to have 2 rocket loads (I don't play CV;s at all) this generally seems to take a minimum of 6k from me , which is...excessive for a player of my limited skills.

Just trying to figure out how to mitigate this damage in my DD's.

Not looking for the "CV's are OP" arguments-as it stands I completely believe they are unbalanced vs most ships, but they're in the game, so I've got to learn to not take damage from the rocket planes. AS I said, seem to be able to sometimes dodge the bombers, but I can't seem to do the same vs the rocket users. 

Thanks!

 

Don't get spotted, turn off AA.

If you have smoke, use it before being spotted, don't get cocky, it costs HP.

If spotted proceed as if Torpedo bombers, just don't go full straight, keep an angle 50-60 deg, something like that depending on your DD turning time.

Bait the CV with a straight course, once the planes are commited to the attack, turn hard into them, you want to meet those rockets head on with your slimest profile. That's all, papa WG said the flying monkeys need at least some asured damage, no way around it.

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Tactics are pretty much the same if you are getting focused by spamming ships like Atlanta or Minotaur.

Dodge. Use your smoke. Make yourself a smaller target by not giving them your broad side. Use terrain to your advantage - planes have a hard time targeting you if they have to maneuver over islands first.

And just remember, planes can't just keep constantly raining fire down on you every 2.5 seconds (or use radar to nullify smoke), like spammers do. They get two - maybe three -  shots at you, then it will be probably a minute or more before they return and have to find you again. Take advantage of that time to get close to allied heavy AA ships or someplace the CV isn't likely to think you are (turn off your AA to make it very hard to spot you in this case).

Edited by capncrunch21
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3 hours ago, Canadian_Reaper said:

AS I said, seem to be able to sometimes dodge the bombers, but I can't seem to do the same vs the rocket users.

Practically speaking there is no way to dodge CV ordinance in general. You can only at best mitigate the damage and hope the enemy CV misplays.

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Turn hard and use "O"  to boost AA. Almost always works for me. Rocket planes usually have pretty terrible accuracy.

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12 minutes ago, black_hull4 said:

Turn hard and use "O"  to boost AA. Almost always works for me. Rocket planes usually have pretty terrible accuracy.

Correct - I don't get hit with a lot of damage most of the time and unless the red CV player is totally focused on killing you, they get 'bored' and go after more juicier targets with their torp and dive bombers.  I've seen where rocket planes are more used to finish off low HP ships than actively hunting down DDs. And of course, keep your AA turned off (P key) when not in use. It really lowers your detect value from the air.

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1 hour ago, Herr_Reitz said:

This explains of course their very overactive and over achieving AA as in many cases they are 20 to 30 years more advanced than the carriers/planes they fight against.  

Actually, worst case, it's 15, and those are stock T8 planes, and a number of the T8 planes served into the 50s and 60s.

As far as the CVs themselves, who cares? T8 CVs can be taken down easily by older ships than themselves. Halland isn't better than anything else at that tier for killing CVs.

1 hour ago, Herr_Reitz said:

They could be whatever WoWS wanted to be; since WoWS was planning on further carrier expansion, what better way to ensure demand than to kit them out for anti-AA role, one of at least two or more roles it could play? 

The AA is all about the automatic Bofors 120mm, and those were part of the ship's standard equipment, no matter what role the ship was kitted out for.

Just wait until they bring out a premium Colombian (Pan-American) version. (2 of those were built as well) Instead of Halland's 2x2 guns, de Agosto and de Julio had a 3x2 layout. (forward 57mm mount replaced with an additional dual 120mm turret)

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43 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Practically speaking there is no way to dodge CV ordinance in general. You can only at best mitigate the damage and hope the enemy CV misplays.

I disagree, I dodge TB torps all the time.

As far as at best mitigating damage, and hoping the enemy misplays, that (besides concealment) is pretty much a foundation of gameplay in Randoms. It's what you do every time you bow tank or angle, or randomly WASD to make it harder for unseen DDs to torp you. 

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3 hours ago, TorpedoBonk said:

Hope they are bad CV players. Really, that's it. 

Yeah, just like in the RTS days the top/unicum CV players will get you no matter what you do

The tier 6, 8, & 10 numbers seem to be dropping back to normal but the tier 4's are still high but that always was the most popular CV tier. Be patient at the beginning staying near ships with more AA until you know where the CV('s) are going to be operating but keep a weather eye on your mini map.

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29 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

but the tier 4's are still high but that always was the most popular CV tier.

Probably a couple of reasons... One, no fighters to deploy.  Two, AA is minimal for the most part, somewhat ineffective. Three, aircraft actually turn and turn sharply. Controls are more responsive than other tiers. 

Plus, ultimately, you generally are fighting fairly new players, right? 

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4 hours ago, Ahskance said:

Some basic tips are:

1) Rockets are now designed to use against broadside targets.  Try to point your bow or stern toward the planes for reduced damage.  Some will still occur, but it will absolutely be less than what it could be.

2) Never be afraid to smoke if you are spotted.  Carriers cannot see through smoke.  While it hurts to lose a cooldown, you can usually leave the smoke after about 20-30 seconds.  While your smoke is still down, try to work your way back to friendly ships that you can use for cover until the smoke is back up.

3) Keep your AA off.  Destroyer AA isn't meant to solo kill waves of planes.  The AA allows you to discourage planes that are lingering over your smoke, or to help out with some extra damage against bombers/torpedo planes they are going after your allies.  Don't use your AA for rocket planes as it will help the Carrier to see you and land better attacks.  (Advanced players can turn their AA on and off while playing with aerial detection ranges... but if you're still settling back in it's easiest to just leave the AA off to keep your aerial detection as low as possible).

4) If you don't have smoke and rocket planes are overhead... charge them with your AA off.  By sailing toward the planes, you can often go unspotted while they fly away to turn around... and then you surprise them by being too close for them to shoot as they come back in.  There's a "warmup" period to the rockets before they can fire, so you can cause the CV to overfly you multiple times by sailing AT the planes.

5) Lastly, while there's a CV in the match your role is different.  Some DDs can act as independently as they could before (British, and others with rapid smokes), but most DDs will need to be closer to teammates in general to avoid being caught out and isolated.  The more you play, the more you will feel out the different role/positioning that will keep you alive and in the fight.

This covers it well. 

What I'll add as someone who plays CV is that CV can only be in one place at a time (not necessarily true with old RTS CV). Most CV want to do damage. If you are hard to find or hard to hit (terrain / smoke / nearby cruiser AA), they're not going to spend minutes looking for you in a random battle and will go strike something else.  They also have to drop what their strike currently is to send rockets after you if that's not what they already have out. 

Also DD should learn what the CV are. American have the rockets to really be afraid of. Japanese are mediocre and German is only effective against armored ships. If an American CV has rockets launched, its a good time for a DD to make self scarce. The squad will do something and go on cooldown.

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If it's coop, I just sail straight on top speed and throw smoke. The Coop CV Bot is crap. So I ignore it. Shoot down a few even.

 

Against human CV, (Excepting Enterprise in particular... that one requires a totally different strategy) I halt all reverse into smoke and throw rudder this way or that way. And stop then start backing up. And wait.

If its really serious I'll turn tail, throw smoke and race for the biggest human AA ship nearby. Hide under his or her skirts a while. Particularly if Human CV has quite enough and is fedup angry to back molars trying to delete me....

 

Against Human Enterprise, I run down the map with dd with one singular goal. Stab same in the back with special torps that are not detecable until they reach about 0.9 km from carrier. And don't get caught red handed trying to get in.

 

A month ago I fought 4 human enterprises in Ranked and it did not matter if I had the very best AA with flags, commander trait etc. And still get sunk 10km or a little less when smoke ran out. I finally broke out a big ship and sunk the damn thing once with guns taking a horrible amount of damage from its planes. Shoot down 60+ you still had more planes coming. Sheesh.

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36 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

The tier 6, 8, & 10 numbers seem to be dropping back to normal but the tier 4's are still high but that always was the most popular CV tier.

Not just that, but I'm hesitant to grind Rhein because of the wait times, so I'm likely to be playing it longer (timewise, not number of games) than I did Langley or Hosho.

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Do you think letting the target have an idea of the attacking planes' area of effect/target circle would help?  Or be fair?

Personally, dive bombers annoy me the most, because there is no way to gauge where the DBs are planning on dumping bombs, nor is there a way to guess by eyeballing the planes, because you can't see directly overhead.  Unless I'm missing something.

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38 minutes ago, BlackAngelCom said:

This covers it well. 

What I'll add as someone who plays CV is that CV can only be in one place at a time (not necessarily true with old RTS CV). Most CV want to do damage. If you are hard to find or hard to hit (terrain / smoke / nearby cruiser AA), they're not going to spend minutes looking for you in a random battle and will go strike something else.  They also have to drop what their strike currently is to send rockets after you if that's not what they already have out. 

Also DD should learn what the CV are. American have the rockets to really be afraid of. Japanese are mediocre and German is only effective against armored ships. If an American CV has rockets launched, its a good time for a DD to make self scarce. The squad will do something and go on cooldown.

American HE dive bombers are ALSO murderous to DDs...

British HE level bombers can do big damage too...

Hosho and Ryujo have maneuverable Torpedo bombers with fast torps. These can be problematic if you get cross dropped.

German CVs are going to hunt you with fast torpedoes...

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