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torino2dc

WG: Clan Battle Mercenaries is not a good idea

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As per the most recent devblog, WG is testing the idea of allowing players who are not members of the clan to join a clan battle division. 

To me the potential upsides (testing recruits, filling in for absences) are FAR outweighed by the potential for abuse.

I'm not sure why WG would want to jeopardize competitive integrity for the most vulnerable sub-section of the competitive population: Squall/Gale/Storm clans.

Hurricane clans are for the most part well-oiled machines, a single talented merc wouldn't upset competitive balance very much. At this level, the game is mostly about strats, communication, and understanding rotations. 

At or below Storm, one outstanding player can single-handedly win the game for you. It would shift the focus towards which clans are able to entice mercs to boost their progress rather than honing their skills as a team.

I would strongly urge the decision makers at WG to scrap this idea.

Edited by torino2dc
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Would be convenient for me feeling out potential teams to join but yeah, that would be so wildly abused it would be gross.

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It could lead to a similar situation in other online games, you pay someone to get 6 players to carry you through some CB matches for rewards.

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If WG is trying to NOT have competitive efforts caught up in the exchange of money, this is a massive step in the opposite direction.

 

 

Imagine what a clan in the struggle for Typhoon or Hurricane, or maybe even Storm, would pay a player (or worse, a group) to power them through the promotion battles.  Or keep them from being relegated.

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11 minutes ago, torino2dc said:

It would shift the focus towards which clans are able to entice mercs to boost their progress rather than honing their skills as a team. 

The flipside is that there is only so far a single talented person can lift an otherwise mediocre or second-rate clan. Eventually they have to pull their own weight.

Your concerns posit the existence of fairly significant numbers of very good players with no clan of their own/nothing better to do.

1) Just how realistic is this scenario?

2) What does it matter that a clanless unicum might join a second-rate clan and assist it to victory? Can we not look on the bright side, and posit that said unicum might have a positive influence on the clan and help it lift its game? Isn't a more capable player-base the thing everyone claims to want?

The deciding factor here is going to be how many non-clan players are allowed to be in the battle. If it's only one or two, I see far less possibility for abuse.

Edited by Ensign_Cthulhu
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If WG wants to destroy the game, we can  only show our discontent by retiring from the game entirely.

Edited by Navalpride33

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14 minutes ago, torino2dc said:

As per the most recent devblog, WG is testing the idea of allowing players who are not members of the clan to join a clan battle division. 

To me the potential upsides (testing recruits, filling in for absences) are FAR outweighed by the potential for abuse.

The only way I could even imagine it working is to setup a long cooling off period for a "recruit" so that they would have to wait a good while between battles, though I don't know how much "feeling out" you could get from a merc in just a battle a day or something. Definitely would have to have a LOT of fail safes in place to prevent abuse, and we know how well WG does with that kinda thing... not very.

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3 minutes ago, TheArc said:

The only way I could even imagine it working is to setup a long cooling off period for a "recruit" so that they would have to wait a good while between battles, though I don't know how much "feeling out" you could get from a merc in just a battle a day or something. Definitely would have to have a LOT of fail safes in place to prevent abuse, and we know how well WG does with that kinda thing... not very.

I would say that a fairly long cool down before that player could play for another clan. The up side of this is small clans and people in clans with few that want to play CB will be able to play.CB.

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14 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

The flipside is that there is only so far a single talented person can lift an otherwise mediocre or second-rate clan. Eventually they have to pull their own weight.

Your concerns posit the existence of fairly significant numbers of very good players with no clan of their own/nothing better to do.

1) Just how realistic is this scenario?

2) What does it matter that a clanless unicum might join a second-rate clan and assist it to victory? Can we not look on the bright side, and posit that said unicum might have a positive influence on the clan and help it lift its game? Isn't a more capable player-base the thing everyone claims to want?

The deciding factor here is going to be how many non-clan players are allowed to be in the battle. If it's only one or two, I see far less possibility for abuse.

1) We just had several clans disbanded on NA, EU, and Asia because hurricane players took real world money to sock-puppet accounts and farm CB steel. The Mercenary system only makes it easier to exchange talent for money while making abuses harder to police.

2) Clans must have faith that the competition they are entering is fundamentally fair. Yes, hurricane clans have access to more ships/captains, but all of those goodies were available to the entire player base. With Mercs in play, the name of the game is "connections" and "enticement" -- who do you know and what can you offer them in payment? 

3) Yes, some unicum mercs might be a positive influence, but the vast majority of positive-minded unicum players are well integrated in the social systems of their clan. That leaves the lone wolves with few scruples.

4) You don't get a more capable player base by having Mercs -- they are the definition of 'empty success.' They have no commitment to improve your clan beyond their short window of employment. 

5) If non-merc clans get frustrated and quit because they think the entire system is rigged against them, then the competitive eco-system as a whole suffers. 

   

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I remember bringing this up the very first mention of clan battles in WoWS. I got shouted down by nearly everyone. Now that they are talking about actually doing it? 
 

It's hilarious... because to me it indicates there is a need for players, any number of ways. 

Well - I wish them luck.  Maybe it will turn out great. 

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The flip side to this is more casual players. Let's pretend for a moment I have the stats to join a clan like KSC or any of the other really big names. The amount of commitment that a clan like KSC would expect of me is more than I would really like to put in, so even if I could get into a competent clan I would not particularly want to. Mercing on the other hand, despite the massive potential for abuse (and it will be abused) allows the more casual players who are good enough mechanically to play CB (I may not be Hurricane level, but I have done CB and pulled my weight) but don't have the necessary commitment to join a competent clan.

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54 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

The flipside is that there is only so far a single talented person can lift an otherwise mediocre or second-rate clan.

Probably pretty far. The clan is getting rid of it's worst player (logic) and getting one who is probably as good as the top one or two on their team. It's like a pro football team going to the Superbowl and picking up an all pro tackle and a 4 second running back along the way. Yeah, this could make a huge difference in how some clans perform.

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5 minutes ago, ComradeTsushima said:

The flip side to this is more casual players. Let's pretend for a moment I have the stats to join a clan like KSC or any of the other really big names. The amount of commitment that a clan like KSC would expect of me is more than I would really like to put in, so even if I could get into a competent clan I would not particularly want to. Mercing on the other hand, despite the massive potential for abuse (and it will be abused) allows the more casual players who are good enough mechanically to play CB (I may not be Hurricane level, but I have done CB and pulled my weight) but don't have the necessary commitment to join a competent clan.

Several Discord servers I’ve seen tonight are already humming with thoughts on how much top clans should charge a merc to let them join  for a session, to get 30 Typhoon wins, what a top free agent player should charge, and what top CV players could command.

 

I’m sure most were joking.  But we know for a fact people were doing that, based on the clans just disbanded.  So some will surely be tempted to do it.  
 

There are many other ways to enable small clans to field a team, or help players who can’t hard core grind a season participate.  

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This is not the way to approach declining clan battle participation. Jokes aside pay2play would become very common and there would be little to stop it without severe limits. Maybe incentivizing clan mergers is a possible idea? You could add the option to merge 2 clans physically and keep the base of one of them and take a percentage of the remaining oil and add it that other clans reserves. 

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2 minutes ago, Borla78 said:

Several Discord servers I’ve seen tonight are already humming with thoughts on how much top clans should charge a merc to let them join  for a session, to get 30 Typhoon wins, what a top free agent player should charge, and what top CV players could command.

 

I’m sure most were joking.  But we know for a fact people were doing that, based on the clans just disbanded.  So some will surely be tempted to do it.  
 

There are many other ways to enable small clans to field a team, or help players who can’t hard core grind a season participate.  

I appreciate the struggle to keep RMT out of the CB environment, mostly I just want a reliable way to earn a significant amount of Steel in between ranked seasons (which are a nightmare to grind because your teammates are random and unreliable) because at this rate I'm never going to get any of the nice steel ships like Stalingrad or Somers. Obviously the answer is to "just join a clan" but if you can find me an active clan in my stat range that isn't going to expect me to be on Discord outside of Clan Battle matches and isn't going to care if I stop playing for a week or two at a time I'll join it. WOLF clans and CBs aren't exactly synonymous and I'm not sitting at the 1800+ PR necessary to dictate terms and make demands of recruiters.

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4 minutes ago, ComradeTsushima said:

I appreciate the struggle to keep RMT out of the CB environment, mostly I just want a reliable way to earn a significant amount of Steel in between ranked seasons (which are a nightmare to grind because your teammates are random and unreliable) because at this rate I'm never going to get any of the nice steel ships like Stalingrad or Somers. Obviously the answer is to "just join a clan" but if you can find me an active clan in my stat range that isn't going to expect me to be on Discord outside of Clan Battle matches and isn't going to care if I stop playing for a week or two at a time I'll join it. WOLF clans and CBs aren't exactly synonymous and I'm not sitting at the 1800+ PR necessary to dictate terms and make demands of recruiters.

The only thing I see as a challenge is you not wanting to be on Discord ever outside of CBs.  Most clans good enough to earn a substantial amount of steel like having some interaction outside of CBs because they know it helps chemistry in game.  Most don’t need you on ALL the time, but they want you around some of the time.  If you could budge on that, I could probably give you 3-4 clans right now that would take you and fit everything else you wanted.  

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3 minutes ago, Borla78 said:

The only thing I see as a challenge is you not wanting to be on Discord ever outside of CBs.  Most clans good enough to earn a substantial amount of steel like having some interaction outside of CBs because they know it helps chemistry in game.  Most don’t need you on ALL the time, but they want you around some of the time.  If you could budge on that, I could probably give you 3-4 clans right now that would take you and fit everything else you wanted.  

Get me into KSD and I'll idle in the Discord server and act faux-outraged every time I get @Everyone'd

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Mercs is definitely in response to this disastrous CB season. 

One way to reduce abuse would be that a team with mercs could not enter into advancement qualifiers / are disallowed from using mercs if they are in advancement (can be used in relegation though).

Another way would be allowing mercs only in Squall / Gale leagues so while a paid team could get those rewards, the purpose of mercs being available so a smaller / noncompetitive clan could get something and maybe even turn into a competitive clan would remain... while the higher leagues would be reserved for the actually competitive clans... as they are now.

Edit: For the record, I don't think 'mercs' are the best way to combat declining CB participation over things like, say clan alliances / easier merges and etc.

Edited by lloyd1701
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This is a very ill-conceived idea at best!    Why would anyone want to join a Clan with this in place as this way they can play for multiple clans without ever joining one while it will open the door for those clans that already cheat when possible to cheat evern more.

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2 minutes ago, ComradeTsushima said:

Get me into KSD and I'll idle in the Discord server and act faux-outraged every time I get @Everyone'd

I don’t want to sidetrack this thread into recruiting stuff, but you can DM me if you want to hear the options I had in mind. 
 

 

My main point was that there are a ton of better ways to solve the perceived problems we’ve mentioned in this thread compared to the merc idea.

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1 hour ago, torino2dc said:

At or below Storm, a single outstanding player can make the difference between winning and losing. It would shift the focus towards which clans are able to entice mercs to boost their progress rather than honing their skills as a team.

I run a clan that usually fairs well in storm. this season, real life hit many of our competitive members and we struggled to get that 7th player to log in during the very specific CB window.  I am pro mercs.  some of the issues above about getting a merc to pull your clan forward, doesn't really buy you much in this game.  you have to win in a match to earn something. which means. members in the clan that are not competitive enough for hurricane, wont see many or any wins at that level. and straight losses suck. Its kinda cool to wear a purple jersey but if you suck your still gonna get your ship sank quick.   

I am pro the merc idea. However, I think some study should be done about allowing clan members play for other clans. make sure this is not game breaking. I think i would prefer if Mercs were clan-less. and use a forum or a discord or in game chat room to recruit mercs. I think the earnings for wins for mercs would make it enticing enough for them.. some players just do not want to join a clan outright. 

its more likely this idea was born from a clan with many sub clans... then you can pick and choose across your mega clan to form teams.... and you would essentially lose the barriers between these clans. 

Edited by skillztowin
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Isn't it too early to cry wolf without knowing the finer print?

Mercenary pay2play as you describe it is already posible as it is. The same guy making the call to pay a merc could as easy give him tags. On Practical terms I don't see this opening any "corruption" window that is not already open. 

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2 minutes ago, skillztowin said:

I run a clan that usually fairs well in storm. this season, real life hit many of our competitive members and we struggled to get that 7th player to log in during the very specific CB window.  I am pro mercs.  some of the issues above about getting a merc to pull your clan forward, doesn't really buy you much in this game.  you have to win in a match to earn something. which means. members in the clan that are not competitive enough for hurricane, wont see many or any wins at that level. and straight losses suck. Its kinda cool to wear a purple jersey but if you suck your still gonna get your ship sank quick.   

I am pro the merc idea. However, I think some study should be done about allowing clan members play for other clans. make sure this is not game breaking. I think i would prefer if Mercs were clan-less. and use a forum or a discord or in game chat room to recruit mercs. I think the earnings for wins for mercs would make it enticing enough for them.. some players just do not want to join a clan outright. 

In a non RMT world, I'd love the idea of mercs to round out a 6 man team since that's always been my clan's issue as well (well, this season more than half our comp team is boycotting after  quitting in disgust and exactly NONE ZERO ZIP of us like CV's in CB)... but with the RMT abuse that WG itself just highlighted with the recent disbands... mercs are not a good solution since they are either ripe for RMT abuse or so heavily restricted they might have little to no impact in solving the problem.

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12 minutes ago, lloyd1701 said:

RMT abuse

help me out.. i've never heard of this.. whats that mean?  i cant seem to find anything through search about it. 

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