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European Cruisers - Line Proposal

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Disclaimer: I like criticism to make my proposals better but if I feel like one of your comments isn't quite correct or doesn't make sense, I will argue against it, just to be clear. Otherwise, I love your tweaks and changes, it really helps me think about the balance in-game and what not.

Like the EU Destroyer line, this line will be made up of one nations ships, the Spanish cruisers only.

So I now present to you... European Cruisers!

 

Tier II

Blas De Lezo

724620388_Annotation2020-08-27101828.thumb.png.78d72e4b91b84be9e6f48c8e37116f08.png

Sorry for the poor image quality, this was the only line drawing I could find of a Blas De Lezo class cruiser. 

Main Guns

(6x1) 6 inch guns

9 sec reload / 6.6 rpm

10.1 km range

Main Belt

3 inches

Maneuverability

29 knots

8 sec rudder shift time

Concealment

9.1 km sea

4 km air

Consumables

Damage Control Party

Blas De Lezo seemed like the prime contender for tier 2 based on her armament, speed and armor. Although she does fall onto the heavier side of T2 cruisers, I'm still not entirely sure if Wargaming determines HP proportionately to displacement but they can always tweak the HP randomly to balance it out. Also in real life Blas De Lezo had torpedo tubes built into the hull, I'm sure wargaming will ignore also them to balance it out.

 

Tier III

Navarra

Spanish Cruiser Navarra (1920)

This would probably be the difference between hull A and hull B

Main Guns

(6x1) 6 inch guns

9 sec reload / 6.6 rpm

11.5 km range

Main Belt

3 inches

Maneuverability

25.5 knots

8.7 sec rudder shift time

Concealment

10.6 km sea

6.1 km air

Consumables

Damage Control Party

You might be asking why Navarra is at a higher tier than Blas De Lezo even though the ladder was Navarra's successor. I did this because I think Navarra's modernization would make her too much for T2, and Wargaming could just add Navarra into the game without her 1936 rebuild but I would really enjoy seeing Navarra in all her glory as a modernized ship, so there she is at T3.

Tier IV

Mendez Nunez

Blas de Lezo class cruisers (1922)

Main Guns

(8x1) 4.7 inch guns

6 sec reload / 10 rpm

12.3 km range

Torpedoes

(2x3) 21 inch torpedo tubes

80 sec reload / 0.75 rpm

8 km range

60 kts

6,200 Max Damage

Main Belt

3 inches

Maneuverability

29 knots

8 sec rudder shift time

Concealment

9.5 km sea

5.1 km air

Consumables

Damage Control Party

Hydroacoustic Search

A Blas De Lezo class cruiser, Mendez Nunez survived the Spanish Civil War unlike her sister. In 1944, she was reconstructed into an Anti Aircraft cruiser. Mendez Nunez is an extremely modern pick for t4 especially because of her powerful AA complement. I would love to see this ship in game, especially with her triple super firing guns.

Tier V

Almirante Cervera

PRÍNCIPE ALFONSO light cruisers (1925-1930)

Main Guns

(3x2)(2x1) 6 inch guns

8 sec reload / 7.5 rpm

12.1 km range

Torpedoes

(4x3) 21 inch torpedo tubes

100 sec reload / 0.6 rpm

8 km range

60 kts

6,200 Max Damage

Main Belt

3 inches

Maneuverability

33 knots

9.1 sec rudder shift time

Concealment

9.9 km sea

5.1 km air

Consumables

Damage Control Party

Hydroacoustic Search

Another strong pick for its tier. Almirante Cervera carries a powerful armament of eight 6 inch guns that fire 7.5 rounds every minute, although she does have an unusual gun layout and practically no armor around the turrets, incapacitated guns would be very common.

Tier VI

Galicia

jgHsUdw.png

Main Guns

(2x2)(2x3) 6 inch guns

8.5 sec reload / 7 rpm

14.8 km range

Torpedoes

(2x3) 21 inch torpedo tubes

60 sec reload / 1 rpm

10 km range

65 kts

7,540 Max Damage

Main Belt

3 inches

Maneuverability

37 knots

10.6 sec rudder shift time

Concealment

12.1 km sea

6.6 km air

Consumables

Damage Control Party

Hydroacoustic Search

Fighter/Spotter

Known as the Light Cruiser Project 124, Galicia (sorry for the name, I'm not sure what Spanish cruisers are named after) will be very similar to the USN cruiser Dallas in terms of fire power, although she receives 6 torpedo tubes. Galicia is very fast, she travels at 37 knots and 38.8 with the sierra mike signal and she has good maneuverability for her size.

Tier VII

Beleares

Cruisers of Spanish Civil War (1936-1939)

Main Guns

(4x2) 8 inch guns

10 sec reload / 6 rpm

16.6 km range

Torpedoes

(4x3) 21 inch torpedo tubes

75 sec reload / 0.8 rpm

10 km range

69 kts

7,540 Max Damage

Main Belt

2 inches

Maneuverability

33 knots

13.6 sec rudder shift time

Concealment

12.1 km sea

7.1 km air

Consumables

Damage Control Party

Hydroacoustic Search

Baleares was the second cruiser of Cannarias class Heavy Cruisers built by the Spanish Navy. In WoWs Beleares would be fit right into T7 next to Algerie and Zara. I hadn't realized how incredibly weak her armor was, so to compensate I gave her a 10 second reload. I think wargaming would be able to implement the torpedo tubes in real launchers above the water like they did with Zara because Beleares's torpedoes were launched from holes in the hull.

Tier VIII

Cannarias

Canarias class heavy cruisers (1936)

Main Guns

(4x2) 8 inch guns

10 sec reload / 6 rpm

17.2 km range

Torpedoes

(4x3) 21 inch torpedo tubes

60 sec reload / 1 rpm

10 km range

72 kts

7,540 Max Damage

Main Belt

4.5 inches

Maneuverability

32 knots

13.4 sec rudder shift time

Concealment

12.1 km sea

7.6 km air

Consumables

Damage Control Party

Hydroacoustic Search

Ship Repair

For balance reasons I decided to give Beleares a 4.5 inch main belt even though that is completely fictional, I just think it will help the player. Same case as Beleares with the torpedoes, maybe they could replace 4 of those lifeboats with the launchers.

Tier IX

Madales

vdigBhI.png

Main Guns

(4x3) 8 inch guns

12 sec reload / 5 rpm

17.8 km range

Torpedoes

(2x3) 21 inch torpedo tubes

60 sec reload / 1 rpm

10 km range

78 kts

10,700 Max Damage

Main Belt

5.9 inches

Maneuverability

36 knots

11.4 sec rudder shift time

Concealment

12.9 km sea

7.6 km air

Consumables

Damage Control Party

Hydroacoustic Search

Ship Repair

Fighter/Spotter

This is Project 138 Version A

Tier X

??

I could not find any information on a cruiser suitable for T10, there were a number that would classify as super cruisers like these:

d4D9rki.png

7TNhXEV.png

These ships carry 11 inch guns and 12 inch guns respectively. They wouldn't make the cut as cruisers.

Let me know in the thread if you could find any information on a possible Spanish T10 cruiser for this line.

Thanks!

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You use too many ships from the same class. The fact is, your ships are Spanish, but none of the Pan-European nations can make a go of it alone for cruisers. You have to use ships from other nations to supplement the line. That said, I do like some of the ideas you present, so I suggest a Euro line with a split of light and heavy cruisers at tier 8.

European Cruisers
II Blas de Lezo (CL Spain)
III Zeeland (CL Netherlands)
IV Dragon (CL Poland)
V Java (CL Netherlands)
VI Tromp (Cl Netherlands)
VII Almirante Cervera (CL Spain)
VIII De Zeven Provincien (CL Netherlands)
VIII Canarias (CA Spain)
IX CL?
IX Madales (CA paper Spain OP posted)
X Tre Kronor (CL Sweden)
X Aragon (CA The first of the two Spanish super cruisers shown above by the OP)

V De Ruyter (CL Netherlands Premium)

My main concern about this list is that Tromp and Cervera are being pushed a tier higher than they should really be and would likely need some historical numbers fudged. Also, I have no idea what paper design could be used for a tier 9 light cruiser for this. @Lert I know you have done extensive work on this, and we have discussed this a few times. Any suggestions for a tier 9 CL for this?

 

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Instead of forcing some into tiers that would hurt the ship, just drop down one tier and make them premiums.

It's obvious that the Spanish line alone can't fill all the gaps. And I agree that a line split can be incorporated with what Europe used at the time.

I also think tier 9 and 10 might end up paper. But any left over super cruisers would be premium too. 

I guess it will be taken up in testing first.

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1 hour ago, Shannon_Lindsey said:

You use too many ships from the same class. The fact is, your ships are Spanish, but none of the Pan-European nations can make a go of it alone for cruisers. You have to use ships from other nations to supplement the line. That said, I do like some of the ideas you present, so I suggest a Euro line with a split of light and heavy cruisers at tier 8.

This. Spain is likely to be represented on a pan-European cruiser line, but it's not going to be the whole line. 

Then again, I would have said that about the pan-European DD line and it ended up being pretty much all Swedish, so who knows? 

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3 hours ago, Shannon_Lindsey said:

 @Lert I know you have done extensive work on this, and we have discussed this a few times. Any suggestions for a tier 9 CL for this?

You're not going to be able to escape paper for a line like this. But instead of using ships from many nations like with the pan asian line, WG seems to want to focus on a single nation for any pan european line. So OP's basic idea is right, but I agree that he has too many ships of the same type across different tiers. While it would be possible for WG to do this, I strongly doubt they will and they have shown with the pan 'european' DD line that they're more interested in homogenizing the line across one single nation to unify playstyle.

With that said, I think realistically only the dutch and the spanish could conceivably come up with a full cruiser line up to tier 10, though either would necessarily include a fairly significant amount of paper.

Both me and Fr05ty have done work on a possible dutch cruiser tree and I have to commend Fr05ty for coming up with a better tree than me. Although mine incorporates less paper, his has a more unified playstyle and logical progression, but both of us end with 1047 and some 1047 prelims as high tier supercruisers.

 

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1 hour ago, Lert said:

You're not going to be able to escape paper for a line like this. But instead of using ships from many nations like with the pan asian line, WG seems to want to focus on a single nation for any pan european line. So OP's basic idea is right, but I agree that he has too many ships of the same type across different tiers. While it would be possible for WG to do this, I strongly doubt they will and they have shown with the pan 'european' DD line that they're more interested in homogenizing the line across one single nation to unify playstyle.

With that said, I think realistically only the dutch and the spanish could conceivably come up with a full cruiser line up to tier 10, though either would necessarily include a fairly significant amount of paper.

Both me and Fr05ty have done work on a possible dutch cruiser tree and I have to commend Fr05ty for coming up with a better tree than me. Although mine incorporates less paper, his has a more unified playstyle and logical progression, but both of us end with 1047 and some 1047 prelims as high tier supercruisers.

 

I remember seeing it before and not liking Java being at tier 4 instead of 5, but now I think that may be the right call, although I still think DeRuyter has to be a tier 5 or it doesn't happen at all, but I think it could be a decent tier 5. I think if the European Netherlands cruisers are supported with some Spanish and Swedish premiums in the form of VIII Canarias and IX Tre Kronor, it could be a very good line.

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1 hour ago, Shannon_Lindsey said:

 although I still think DeRuyter has to be a tier 5 or it doesn't happen at all, but I think it could be a decent tier 5.

De Ruyter is simply not suited to be a T5. Don't look at her introduction date but at her armament, armor and tonnage. She was designed by comittee, under pressure from pacifist lobbyists, to outdated design specs to be as cheap as possible. There's no way she's the equal of say Omaha.

(Edit) back on topic, I don't know nearly enough about Spanish cruisers to be of much help in this thread, sorry.

Edited by Lert

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I'd love to see a Pan-European cruiser line, and some of those Spanish ships look good! Maybe some of the sister ships could be replaced with ones from Netherlands, Portugal, or such. Switzerland!
What would be the "theme" of that line?  High speed and vulnerable turrets (maybe with "heal" to restore a destroyed turret)?

Mostly, I think it would be awesome to have a Polish captain on all those ships. I already use him on Błyskawica, Friesland, and Östergötland. Why not speak Polish on Cannarias too?

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10 hours ago, Shannon_Lindsey said:

You use too many ships from the same class. The fact is, your ships are Spanish, but none of the Pan-European nations can make a go of it alone for cruisers. You have to use ships from other nations to supplement the line. That said, I do like some of the ideas you present, so I suggest a Euro line with a split of light and heavy cruisers at tier 8.

European Cruisers
II Blas de Lezo (CL Spain)
III Zeeland (CL Netherlands)
IV Dragon (CL Poland)
V Java (CL Netherlands)
VI Tromp (Cl Netherlands)
VII Almirante Cervera (CL Spain)
VIII De Zeven Provincien (CL Netherlands)
VIII Canarias (CA Spain)
IX CL?
IX Madales (CA paper Spain OP posted)
X Tre Kronor (CL Sweden)
X Aragon (CA The first of the two Spanish super cruisers shown above by the OP)

V De Ruyter (CL Netherlands Premium)

My main concern about this list is that Tromp and Cervera are being pushed a tier higher than they should really be and would likely need some historical numbers fudged. Also, I have no idea what paper design could be used for a tier 9 light cruiser for this. @Lert I know you have done extensive work on this, and we have discussed this a few times. Any suggestions for a tier 9 CL for this?

 

Tre Konor is definitely not suitable for T8 let alone T10, she carries 2.8 inches of armor around the belt and only had seven 6 inch guns. Even if she were given radar she would not be able to compete with other ships like Zao or Hindenburg.

And I highly doubt that wargaming will add more than 3 nations into a single "Pan" line. It will either be all spanish, or spanish and Dutch. The dutch do not have enough cruisers and plans to make a full line.

And I actually think De Zeven Provincien is a great choice for T8 and maybe even T9. She could play like Friesland. Or wargaming could put her into the Pan-American cruiser line as BAP Almirante Grau.

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8 hours ago, poeticmotion said:

This. Spain is likely to be represented on a pan-European cruiser line, but it's not going to be the whole line. 

Then again, I would have said that about the pan-European DD line and it ended up being pretty much all Swedish, so who knows? 

If you look at my line, the spanish could definitely finish the line alone. There obviously would be a couple of paper ships and if someone can find a spanish paper ship for T10 then we're Golden. But from my knowledge, there is no European ship that would fit into the T10 spot as a heavy cruiser or light cruiser, excluding super-cruisers. And yes, I utilized 4 ships from the same ship classes, but thats because of their significant differences. But if you look at the French Cruiser line Wargaming utilized two ships of very similar designs (Martel and Louis). Cannarias and Beleares would stretch this, but could definitely work. As for Blas De Lezo and Mendez Nunez, those ships are completely different because of Mendez's rebuild as an AA cruiser.

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1 hour ago, jo_jo_nerd said:

If you look at my line, the spanish could definitely finish the line alone. There obviously would be a couple of paper ships and if someone can find a spanish paper ship for T10 then we're Golden. But from my knowledge, there is no European ship that would fit into the T10 spot as a heavy cruiser or light cruiser, excluding super-cruisers. And yes, I utilized 4 ships from the same ship classes, but thats because of their significant differences. But if you look at the French Cruiser line Wargaming utilized two ships of very similar designs (Martel and Louis). Cannarias and Beleares would stretch this, but could definitely work. As for Blas De Lezo and Mendez Nunez, those ships are completely different because of Mendez's rebuild as an AA cruiser.

We may end up with both Netherlands and Spanish lines eventually, but the Netherlands have the better chance at it.

As for The Kronor, I admit tier 10 was a stretch since the class only had 7 guns in a 3-2-2 setup, but it actually is a natural fit for a tier 9 armory ship. There are two reasons for this. First, it was a super light cruiser, so it makes sense to give it everything from the toolbox of the Swedes: Fast torpedoes, defense aa, radar, hydro, and dual purpose fast reload main battery all while being very maneuverable and prone to overpens. Speaking of which, Tre Kronor had historically a 4 second reload on those main battery guns, but they had unusually long barrels for dp. Imagine a fire spammer with a base 4 second reload, but brutally accurate, but also dependent on it's rudder to survive. At that rate of fire, when combined with a deep toolbox, sounds like a natural fit at T9 armory.

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1 hour ago, Shannon_Lindsey said:

We may end up with both Netherlands and Spanish lines eventually, but the Netherlands have the better chance at it.

As for The Kronor, I admit tier 10 was a stretch since the class only had 7 guns in a 3-2-2 setup, but it actually is a natural fit for a tier 9 armory ship. There are two reasons for this. First, it was a super light cruiser, so it makes sense to give it everything from the toolbox of the Swedes: Fast torpedoes, defense aa, radar, hydro, and dual purpose fast reload main battery all while being very maneuverable and prone to overpens. Speaking of which, Tre Kronor had historically a 4 second reload on those main battery guns, but they had unusually long barrels for dp. Imagine a fire spammer with a base 4 second reload, but brutally accurate, but also dependent on it's rudder to survive. At that rate of fire, when combined with a deep toolbox, sounds like a natural fit at T9 armory.

It could definitely work, but it would have 27,000 HP at T9. I personally see De Zeven Provencien as a much better fit for T9 but who knows what wargaming will do, they are very unpredictable.

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