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SeaGladius

Best Tier VIII Cruiser

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In another thread, someone commented that Mainz was the best Tier VIII cruiser. I would have given that title to the Cleveland, but I haven’t played Mainz.  What does everyone else think?

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Oh I'd pick Mainz over Cleveland.  

Sure, Cleveland has a radar and that can be used to support team around caps.  But I have found Mainz is much more flexible and mobile around the map whereas Clevelands tend to get stuck behind that island and find it too risky to move away. The torpedoes also give Mainz very strong options for yolo at short range - particularly late game - and the long-range, long-duration hydro give Mainz surprisingly strong spotting potential.  

Having said that, in addition to Mainz there are quite a few strong T8 cruisers: Kutuzov, Bayard, Prinz Eugen, Charles Martel, Atago.  

Edited by UltimateNewbie
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The Bayard before the IFHE changes had easily the highest ceiling and was one of the best ships in game tier for tier. I haven't played it since the changes so I'm not sure how hard it was hit, but I'd say mainz is definitely the strongest aside from Bayard. Cleveland is probably best tech tree option but the premiums for t8 are much better than tech tree cruisers.

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1 hour ago, SeaGladius said:

In another thread, someone commented that Mainz was the best Tier VIII cruiser. I would have given that title to the Cleveland, but I haven’t played Mainz.  What does everyone else think?

The two are very different CLs.  It greatly depends on what style of play you prefer the most.  In terms of dealing raw damage, Mainz is far, far, far better than Cleveland.  But Cleveland is a Radar Cruiser and can swing games.

 

Cleveland - Team Radar Utility

+ Stealthy CL

+ Radar Cruiser:  Radar is one of the most critical consumables to help your team.  Help your team's DDs around the caps.  Your presence gives DD players pause.  They have to play a bit more careful if you are around.

+ Floaty Shells let her camp behind islands and lob them over to attack targets.

- Floaty Shells make it annoying to hit distant targets because the shells are parachuting down from the atmosphere.  The amount of lead you have to do can get ridiculous depending on range and speed of the target.  This also has an added negative effect that depending on the engagement, she kind of needs to fight at closer ranges, which can be risky.

- If you have to fight in open water with those floaty shells and needing to get somewhat close to actually hit something, you'll feel super vulnerable.  You won't feel this as much when top tier against Tier VI-VII, but when fighting Tier VIII-X games, it gets a lot more dangerous because many more enemies can reach out and touch you.

- Playing a Radar Cruiser is a stressful, dangerous, unforgiving job.  It's tricky to play.  You are playing pretty far forward, you're practically there with the DDs as you try to support them at the caps.  But if you screw up, get spotted with no cover nearby, then your Priority Target counter will skyrocket to 5+ and you're going to die real soon, or at the very least, lose a lot of your HP.

- With 30mm default HE Pen, you need IFHE, otherwise you can't farm the 32mm extremities of High Tier BBs and deck armor of all FR & RN Battleships.  Even with IFHE, you will cap off at 37mm.  High Tier USN BB Deck Armor is 38mm.

- Normal CLs tend to be captain point hogs.  IFHE is needed in High Tier.  Stealth Build also.  That's 14pts already.

 

Mainz - Simple, Raw Damage Dealing

+ Loaded with 6km torpedoes on both sides.  If the opportunity presents itself and a BB doesn't respect your personal space, you got a lot of torpedo power to make them regret it.

+ German Cruiser shell flight characteristics are very good for ranged combat.  Couple that with 17.52km gun range, you're in a great spot.

+ German Cruisers have an HE Pen Bonus.  Mainz's 150mm HE shells have 38mm HE Pen... By default.  German CLs because of this don't need IFHE.  Just get DE for 3pts and you're looking better than most CLs out there.  Because of this, in finalized builds, Mainz ends up looking great because of her high HE Pen and better Fire Chance than her Normal CL peers.

+ German Cruisers all tend not to demand much captain points.  Honestly, if you get PT or PM, AR, DE, CE, that's all you need.  Matter of fact, because German CLs don't need IFHE, you can freely swap in your other German Cruiser captains if you want.  The traits Hindenburg, Admiral Hipper, Yorck, Prinz Eugen need as CAs is the same you want in your German CLs.

+ Very simple playstyle.  Be at range in open water, spam HE.

- German Cruisers have awful concealment ranges.  Even with Stealth Build, Mainz has 12.02km detection range.  I have Battleships that are just as stealthy.

- German Cruisers in High Tier aren't reknown for their agility.  Mainz is no different.

- Those level flying shells make it problematic in finding islands to camp behind and lob shells over.  The island has to be really low in height to lob shells over them.  For most parts this means you must fight Open Water, i.e. the enemy gets clean shots at you.

- Shell for shell, German Cruisers have low raw HE alpha damage, the price for the HE Pen Bonus.  It's a good thing you got that good range and shell flight characteristics, you need to keep on hitting to get the HE damage to rack up.

 

 

 

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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IMO, at high tiers... Cruisers are gun fodder for high caliber guns... That dont mean they cant be fun... Just at a Glance,

  • RU cruisers are good
  • Pasta cruisers are good as well (SAP is an excuse to give cruisers BB lvl DMG to certain ships).
  • Brit cruisers are good..

If I didn't mention any other nation, its a question of play style and preference.As you can see, some prefer Germany and  US cruiser plays style... 

That would be the top 3 nations of cruisers, I would sink first or stay away from when fighting against, at tier 8.

Edited by Navalpride33
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Amalfi was arguably the best grind at Tier 8 I ever did. 

She has great guns, sap is fantastic, the torps are no joke, and smoking when you're at range and getting multi-targeted.

Trick is to know how that rudder works. 

The pasta line overall made me a better player, I didn't have cheap gimmicks or radar to save me...it was all WSAD.

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2 minutes ago, Dr_Venture said:

The pasta line overall made me a better player, I didn't have cheap gimmicks or radar to save me...it was all WSAD.

Radar isn't a cheap little "Get out of Jail" card that Smoke is.  Being a Radar Cruiser means you got to be playing forward.  To be an effective Radar Cruiser, Cleveland has to be within 9km of the enemy to make it work.  Radar Cruisers if they're doing their job, are playing almost as far forward as the DDs.

That's dangerous.

Sitting back at range, especially if you got smoke to insta-break contact, that's easy.

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Just now, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Radar isn't a cheap little "Get out of Jail" card that Smoke is.  Being a Radar Cruiser means you got to be playing forward.  To be an effective Radar Cruiser, Cleveland has to be within 9km of the enemy to make it work.  Radar Cruisers if they're doing their job, are playing almost as far forward as the DDs.

That's dangerous.

Sitting back at range, especially if you got smoke to insta-break contact, that's easy.

You'd be surprised. People see the Pasta cruiser with SAP plinky away at them and they attract ALOT of shells.

People see them as an easy kill because even a glancing hit in the rear is a cit.

Cheap gimmicks to me are being able to fire over islands and spam HE. Radar is a whole different beast, shoulda worded that better, my bad. 

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The stats say Bayard at the moment, although it is the 6th least played ship, for tier 8 cruisers.

Bayard 8 Cruiser France 98 045 53.78 % 0.83 57 934 1 764 3.44 1.55
Mainz 8 Cruiser Germany 102 808 53.59 % 0.77 57 781 1 713 3.99 1.41
Amalfi 8 Cruiser Italy 370 162 52.88 % 0.76 50 918 1 701 3.52 1.46
Albemarle 8 Cruiser U.K. 191 252 52.35 % 0.69 48 916 1 632 4.69 1.22
Charles Martel 8 Cruiser France 1 170 340 52.27 % 0.71 51 097 1 467 1.79 1.24
Wichita 8 Cruiser U.S.A. 101 345 52.07 % 0.66 42 951 1 584 4.1 1.08
Tallinn 8 Cruiser U.S.S.R. 123 036 51.94 % 0.65 44 445 1 573 4.34 1.07
Mikhail Kutuzov 8 Cruiser U.S.S.R. 1 891 881 51.41 % 0.71 49 281 1 400 2.05 1.28
Pyotr Bagration 8 Cruiser U.S.S.R. 53 069 51.33 % 0.64 45 575 1 611 4.74 1.08
Atago B 8 Cruiser Japan 128 184 51.27 % 0.67 45 244 1 520 1.89 1.22
Edinburgh 8 Cruiser U.K. 2 158 511 51.21 % 0.7 40 480 1 386 1.98 1.18
AL Montpelier 8 Cruiser U.S.A. 58 837 51.13 % 0.62 41 606 1 531 5.77 1.04
Irian 8 Cruiser Pan-Asia 134 304 51.07 % 0.71 50 107 1 584 3.26 1.15
Chapayev 8 Cruiser U.S.S.R. 1 765 407 51 % 0.66 45 268 1 480 1.81 1.08
Cheshire 8 Cruiser U.K. 11 796 50.9 % 0.63 44 707 1 593 5.83 1.11
Mogami 8 Cruiser Japan 3 067 452 50.77 % 0.69 43 029 1 362 1.32 1.13
Baltimore 8 Cruiser U.S.A. 1 651 634 50.75 % 0.57 38 386 1 319 3.18 0.86
ARP Takao 8 Cruiser Japan 1 211 376 50.47 % 0.61 39 786 1 203 0.93 1.01
Cleveland 8 Cruiser U.S.A. 2 902 214 50.39 % 0.57 37 873 1 263 2.66 0.88
Ochakov 8 Cruiser U.S.S.R. 22 575 50.33 % 0.59 39 151 1 572 3.87 0.91
Admiral Hipper 8 Cruiser Germany 2 855 770 49.77 % 0.56 38 237 1 351 1.84 0.89
Atago 8 Cruiser Japan 3 082 281 49.74 % 0.61 37 909 1 291 1.22 1.06
Prinz Eugen 8 Cruiser Germany 772 725 49.66 % 0.54 36 759 1 310 2.14 0.87
New Orleans (<31.05.2018) 8 Cruiser U.S.A. 2 334 803 48.54 % 0.5 31 035 1 199 1.28 0.77
Wukong 8 Cruiser Pan-Asia 5 383 47.58 % 0.55 43 682 1 471 2.81 0.84
Edited by Sovereigndawg
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2 minutes ago, Dr_Venture said:

You'd be surprised. People see the Pasta cruiser with SAP plinky away at them and they attract ALOT of shells.

People see them as an easy kill because even a glancing hit in the rear is a cit.

Cheap gimmicks to me are being able to fire over islands and spam HE. Radar is a whole different beast, shoulda worded that better, my bad. 

It's just like my experience with Des Moines vs Zao.  I'm effective with my DM as a Radar Cruiser, but it's a stressful playstyle.  If I wasn't contesting the caps with the DDs with Des Moines, then I wasn't doing my job.  But if I screw up, I'd be spotted and conveniently close to the red team to get focused down.  Not surprising to see dangerous Battleships like Yamato be 14km away that will easily hit me and Overmatch me to hell and back at these ranges if I screwed up.

 

Meanwhile I could play my long range spam Cruiser like Zao at very safe distances and leisurely plink away, do a bit of WASD Hax to throw off a BB player's long range salvo, etc.  Just leisurely sail around the map, firing shells every now and then at long range.  It was so easy, my Survival % between DM and Zao was stupidly in favor of Zao.

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For me the Atago has always been a great ship. Her guns hit hard and her torpedoes have the range that make everyone take her seriously. The Baltimore is also pretty tough, has radar, and hits hard with the heavy American AP.  

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Bayard or Mainz would be my choice, honestly. Gimmicks are nice, but guns that rain hell down on the enemy are nicer.

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Tier VIII, despite their fragility, right now is a great place for cruisers. As they have great variety and utility, defining the best ship simply depends on the players affinity with a playstyle.

In my opinion, Mainz and Bayard are better ships than Cleveland. But that is because of my playstyle, which prefers to kite and play at long range than playing close to an island. Despite being disregarded as a meh-ship, Irian has been a blast for me too, her combination of 13km deep-water torps and 152mm guns is severely underestimated. Atago, Prinz Eugen and Ptyor Bagration have a heal, which helps a lot in any type of fight that requires kiting, as you can recover from the mistakes that sometimes just happen, and they all specialize in their shells dealing heavy damage at range.

I have played almost all those ships and I find them powerful in their respective specialization. I have not played the infamous Albemarle and Cheshire, but I see they are alright in all regards except defense, which is supposedly worse than their tiermates... 

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Mainz is a bit.. fragile.

 

However Mainz has tons of torps. You can take out two or three big BB's this way close in if you catch em or get caught yourself.

Mainz is a bit fragile. She might take a few hits. Key word might.

The Prinz is a stronger ship in a fight than the Mainz is but not by much.

I usually end up in the pommern hunting cruisers. I cannot help it that they are easy kills relatively speaking. With that said I like cruisers. Leander in particular, almost 350K in xp in that one but it's a VI tier.

Mainz guns fire pretty fast. But not as impressive as other cruisers. Don't waste AP tapping on BB's use the HE instead. Burn em down.

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The Atago is comfortably the best I’ve played. Stealthy enough to dictate the terms of engagement, nimble enough to mitigate damage at range, enough guns/torps to do something when the time comes.

Other ships are better paired down. Other ships have a higher ceiling. But solo dropping a random, like I do? I’d bring my Takao.

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2 hours ago, Navalpride33 said:

As you can see, some prefer Germany and  US cruiser plays style... 

To be fair, German and RU cruisers don't always play that differently at T8. Germans don't have the railguns, but they have the range, with usable velocity, and trade speed for maneuverability and protection.

It's certainly a telling commentary on the state of the game that most people's picks are premiums.....

Edited by Skpstr
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2 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

To be fair, German and RU cruisers don't always play that differently at T8. Germans don't have the railguns, but they have the range, with usable velocity, and trade speed for maneuverability and protection.

It's certainly a telling commentary on the state of the game that most people's picks are premiums.....

I would Summarize it as the power creep and snowball affects there Skp.

WG since last year, want to destroy WOWS with the for profit power creep model.

As you pointed out, there is nothing we can do about it. :Smile_hiding:

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2 hours ago, Sovereigndawg said:

The stats say Bayard at the moment, although it is the 6th least played ship, for tier 8 cruisers.

Bayard 8 Cruiser France 98 045 53.78 % 0.83 57 934 1 764 3.44 1.55
Mainz 8 Cruiser Germany 102 808 53.59 % 0.77 57 781 1 713 3.99 1.41
Amalfi 8 Cruiser Italy 370 162 52.88 % 0.76 50 918 1 701 3.52 1.46
Albemarle 8 Cruiser U.K. 191 252 52.35 % 0.69 48 916 1 632 4.69 1.22
Charles Martel 8 Cruiser France 1 170 340 52.27 % 0.71 51 097 1 467 1.79 1.24
Wichita 8 Cruiser U.S.A. 101 345 52.07 % 0.66 42 951 1 584 4.1 1.08
Tallinn 8 Cruiser U.S.S.R. 123 036 51.94 % 0.65 44 445 1 573 4.34 1.07
Mikhail Kutuzov 8 Cruiser U.S.S.R. 1 891 881 51.41 % 0.71 49 281 1 400 2.05 1.28
Pyotr Bagration 8 Cruiser U.S.S.R. 53 069 51.33 % 0.64 45 575 1 611 4.74 1.08
Atago B 8 Cruiser Japan 128 184 51.27 % 0.67 45 244 1 520 1.89 1.22
Edinburgh 8 Cruiser U.K. 2 158 511 51.21 % 0.7 40 480 1 386 1.98 1.18
AL Montpelier 8 Cruiser U.S.A. 58 837 51.13 % 0.62 41 606 1 531 5.77 1.04
Irian 8 Cruiser Pan-Asia 134 304 51.07 % 0.71 50 107 1 584 3.26 1.15
Chapayev 8 Cruiser U.S.S.R. 1 765 407 51 % 0.66 45 268 1 480 1.81 1.08
Cheshire 8 Cruiser U.K. 11 796 50.9 % 0.63 44 707 1 593 5.83 1.11
Mogami 8 Cruiser Japan 3 067 452 50.77 % 0.69 43 029 1 362 1.32 1.13
Baltimore 8 Cruiser U.S.A. 1 651 634 50.75 % 0.57 38 386 1 319 3.18 0.86
ARP Takao 8 Cruiser Japan 1 211 376 50.47 % 0.61 39 786 1 203 0.93 1.01
Cleveland 8 Cruiser U.S.A. 2 902 214 50.39 % 0.57 37 873 1 263 2.66 0.88
Ochakov 8 Cruiser U.S.S.R. 22 575 50.33 % 0.59 39 151 1 572 3.87 0.91
Admiral Hipper 8 Cruiser Germany 2 855 770 49.77 % 0.56 38 237 1 351 1.84 0.89
Atago 8 Cruiser Japan 3 082 281 49.74 % 0.61 37 909 1 291 1.22 1.06
Prinz Eugen 8 Cruiser Germany 772 725 49.66 % 0.54 36 759 1 310 2.14 0.87
New Orleans (<31.05.2018) 8 Cruiser U.S.A. 2 334 803 48.54 % 0.5 31 035 1 199 1.28 0.77
Wukong 8 Cruiser Pan-Asia 5 383 47.58 % 0.55 43 682 1 471 2.81 0.84

The fact that Atago and Atago B and Takao are spread out always makes me wonder... they're the same damn ship.  

And how is the barn-sided all-citadel Albemarle that high up?  Is it only played by people who love it for some reason at this point?  

Anyway, my favorite tier 8 cruisers are Hipper, Prinz Eugen, Takao, and Wichita, and other people's stats won't change that.  

 

2 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

- German Cruisers in High Tier aren't reknown for their agility.  Mainz is no different.

Oddly, they don't feel that clunky to me.  

 

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Prinz Eugen. It heals, is very robust, has torpedoes that can hit port and starboard at the same time, and actually was built!!!

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30 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

The fact that Atago and Atago B and Takao are spread out always makes me wonder... they're the same damn ship.  

And how is the barn-sided all-citadel Albemarle that high up?  Is it only played by people who love it for some reason at this point?  

Anyway, my favorite tier 8 cruisers are Hipper, Prinz Eugen, Takao, and Wichita, and other people's stats won't change that.  

WoWS numbers is useless for looking at ship server stats.  It suffers from the fact that it uses all time data, which can skew the numbers.  The data is inaccurate for new ships as the population has not had time to normalize, while it becomes more corrupted the longer a ship is in game, *especially* if a ship receives major balance changes or experiences meta shifts.  If you throw out all the ships with objectively inaccurate or corrupted data, there is practically nothing left.

 

On top of that....looking at raw server population stats (even if they are accurate and current) is also an inherently flawed metric as the superficial data available offers no way to factor out population biases.  The general community has largely acknowledged that some ships can't be compared.  For example, as a rule steel ships have inflated win rates compared to tech tree ships.  However, the community also largely suffers from Gell-Mann amnesia and fails to account for the fact that not every single tech tree ship has an identical population, and that population biases can skew the data on every ship in the game.  Without access to advanced stats, it's simply not possible to accurately interpret server data as there is no way to isolate the true influence a ship has in determining its win rate versus the impact its population has.   

 

*edit

For example right now the Goliath has the 2nd best win rate of any tier 10 tech tree cruiser.  Can you accurately explain why this is?  Is it because the Goliath is just a really good ship?  Or because it's a fairly recent release?  Or because it has the lowest battle count?  Or maybe it's actually because it's just a bad ship that doesn't attract a lot of the average player base? Or maybe it's some other reason entirely?

 My point is there are multiple possible contradicting explanations, and without more detailed stats it's simply impossible to answer.  The Goliath is just one example, but these questions can be raised for any ship in the game.

Edited by yashma

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2 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Radar isn't a cheap little "Get out of Jail" card that Smoke is.  Being a Radar Cruiser means you got to be playing forward.  To be an effective Radar Cruiser, Cleveland has to be within 9km of the enemy to make it work. 

That's one reason I'm not enamored of US cruisers. I don't want to "have to" play anywhere.

At least with the RU cruisers, I can play from range, and save the radar when transiting high-risk areas. (of course, if I happen to find myself in an ideal position for a US cruiser, I'll use it in that fashion)

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I think everyone is forgetting about HMS Neptune.  Without a doubt, the best tier 8 cruiser in the game.

I hear it's tearing it up in Ranked Sprint the time.

LOL

WhiteCoat

 

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Thanks for the responses guys.  Tier 8 has some pretty good cruisers overall.  I've played the Atago/Takao, Chapayev, Kutuzov, Admiral Hipper, Prinz Eugen, Baltimore and Cleveland, and can honestly say that I have enjoyed every one of them.  As I said above, of those, I feel that the Cleveland is the strongest - at least, I have felt that I can do the most in the most circumstances with the Cleveland due to it's dpm and maneuverabiiity.  The radar is most useful later in the game, as trying to use it at the beginning of the game is usually too dangerous. I'm pretty sure that I would enjoy the Mainz too, as I have enjoyed all my open water cruisers so far.  I love the Russian light cruisers, and the Mainz seems to play similarly to them.

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