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Herr_Reitz

Are Divs a good thing in randoms?

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I am wondering if any of you have collected some long-term data that indicates divs in a random game result in more victories for the div team or not.

I rarely div these days; I know, I probably should div more, but meh... I usually have a good time without divs. But it seems things are falling back into familiar ruts. I'd like to know what you guys think and maybe some of you have the data, one way or the other? 

Far too often it seems, for my battles, where there is one or two divs of two or three folks, the number if the div doesn't seem to matter, our team fails miserably. I rarely see our team winning with the divs. 

My hypothesis or theory is so much of the team is joined together in divs, they aren't responsive, per say, to what the team is doing. The team itself is not paying attention to the divs so things are even worse of a chaotic scene than a normal random match. 

If that's a workable theory, what can be done to modify/change it? 

If you are a constant DIV player, do you communicate to the random team you are with what your goals are, where you're going, that sort of thing? 

tia fyc 

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Personally I hate when they talk to each other and focus ships one by one. This is what makes div so dirty. Could random players do this? Yes. But some divs just bring this to the next level.

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Depends on the composition of the div.    

There was a 3 DD div in one of my games recently, 2 Halland+1 Shima.   They're team lost the game.   I think a major factor in that was that all 3 DDs went to the same cap point, leaving much of the map uncontested, the ships on that side (which happened to be where I also was) did a great job of avoiding the walls of torpedoes thrown at them as well, I ended up getting one with torpedoes myself before eventually getting caught a bit too far forward and gunned down.     All that torp power was focused on 2 ships in the bottom corner of the map, the rest of the map was totally open for my team to stomp.

Just like anything else, its who's in the div that matters.    Good players in a div = dominate, bad players in a div = fodder.

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3 good players working together can carry all but the heaviest of teams. 

I've seen unicum triple divs hit 80% WR and even approach 90% WR. The best solo players max out at ~70% WR. 

Conversely, 3 potatoes will drag down their team. If three good players can drastically improve the team's WR, then conversely 3 bad players can destroy their team's WR as they must carry harder. 

 

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I have very mixed feelings about divs. They are certainly somewhat of a 'must-have' feature as people just want to play the game together, but they come at a cost:

  • as stated previously, a division of good players becomes even better, to the point that they can effectively carry most games.
  • conversely, they put the other team at an even bigger disadvantage as they get the 'other' division or the people just playing for fun

So, you would need to balance these out even more so than the random individuals you have in a team. But MM does not take that into account and therefore divs just reduce the effect single players have on the game. So, in randoms I hate it when I see half my team is in divs, because statistics tell me they can't all be unicums...

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2 hours ago, Herr_Reitz said:

I am wondering if any of you have collected some long-term data that indicates divs in a random game result in more victories for the div team or not.

I rarely div these days; I know, I probably should div more, but meh... I usually have a good time without divs. But it seems things are falling back into familiar ruts. I'd like to know what you guys think and maybe some of you have the data, one way or the other? 

Far too often it seems, for my battles, where there is one or two divs of two or three folks, the number if the div doesn't seem to matter, our team fails miserably. I rarely see our team winning with the divs. 

My hypothesis or theory is so much of the team is joined together in divs, they aren't responsive, per say, to what the team is doing. The team itself is not paying attention to the divs so things are even worse of a chaotic scene than a normal random match. 

If that's a workable theory, what can be done to modify/change it? 

If you are a constant DIV player, do you communicate to the random team you are with what your goals are, where you're going, that sort of thing? 

tia fyc 

Hi, the vast majority of my Random battles are solo. This is not the results of a scientific study, it's more like observations.

The vast majority of Divs in Random don't seem to have any more effect than the 2 or 3 players in it would. There are exceptions. The biggest of these would be a gunbote DD, radar CA or CL, and a 2ndary BB. They will take one side of the map, cap and contest, and/or just sink all the reds. If they are green, it becomes like a coop battle, you have to compete for damage and caps before it's over. If they are red, kite until you are sunk.

Have not carried that many battles, and have very rarely done well vs a Div from a good clam, that is playing well together.

One of the last things i pay attention to when entering a battle.   

spud

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A good division with friends makes things more bearable.

 

A good division on comms, coordinating is fantastic.  Ships being played to compliment strengths and mitigate weaknesses.

 

That said, divisions aren't auto wins.  A div is only good if the members are actually good themselves.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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2 hours ago, Herr_Reitz said:

I am wondering if any of you have collected some long-term data that indicates divs in a random game result in more victories for the div team or not.

I rarely div these days; I know, I probably should div more, but meh... I usually have a good time without divs. But it seems things are falling back into familiar ruts. I'd like to know what you guys think and maybe some of you have the data, one way or the other? 

Far too often it seems, for my battles, where there is one or two divs of two or three folks, the number if the div doesn't seem to matter, our team fails miserably. I rarely see our team winning with the divs. 

My hypothesis or theory is so much of the team is joined together in divs, they aren't responsive, per say, to what the team is doing. The team itself is not paying attention to the divs so things are even worse of a chaotic scene than a normal random match. 

If that's a workable theory, what can be done to modify/change it? 

If you are a constant DIV player, do you communicate to the random team you are with what your goals are, where you're going, that sort of thing? 

tia fyc 

Being a CV player you could benefit greatly from divving as you can bring a couple HE spammers (especially RN BB HE spammers) to strip AA for you making heavy AA ships (& especially light AA ships) fodder for your planes in just a couple synchronized vollies.

As already mentioned it depends on how well you can strategize between your div mates as to whether it will be beneficial to you as odds are you will be mirrored by another div...not always but most of the time anyway.

 

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38 minutes ago, shinytrashcan said:

I have very mixed feelings about divs.

I'm the same.

I really don't mind divisions.  If 3 really good players create a division they can most likely carry the team to victory.  You can also be unfortunate and get that division that gets destroyed within the first 2-5 minutes of the game.

I had a game a few days ago that had a unicum division.  They were running a Mino, Wooster and a Fletcher.  They won the match but we didn't lose as badly as I expected.  One of the players on my team referred to the division as a "toxic" division.  Although I can understand why he said that but I didn't find the division to be toxic.  I think the more appropriate word is "not fun" to play against.

I had to play against 3 Stalingrad division.  It wasn't very much fun.

Edited by HeadSplit120

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  I think WG got it right with 3-player divisions. Coming from another game (WoW) that has similar mechanics, I can say the 3-player limit on divisions is a much better solution. In WoW you can have 5-player premade teams drop into a 10-player battle random battle - this produces a very lopsided result,  and a horrific side-effect known as spawn camping (definitely not good).

Edited by Silver_not_grey

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The 3 player clan divisions can be tough to play against especially if there is another 2 or 3 man clan division on the same side which happens a lot . I wouldn’t mind the clan divisions if they had an even number of them on each side  . Then let the chips fall were they will maybe you clan division stinks and there’s is great but at least it even numbers . You pretty much know your losing when one side has two 3 man clan divisions and your side has none . 

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Divs are only as good or bad as those that use them. I try to not abuse the mechanic too hard, but it only becomes a true problem when either 3 super unicum or 3 super unikidney stones div. The most one can do to the former is to try and get the team to focus them. The only thing you can do to the latter is pray they aren't on your team.

Edited by Shoggoth_pinup

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A better question would be : Why division would not be considered good for random ?

Random most of the time is a clownfest populated by player from all skill range, from people who're top garbage (the kind that has 0pr in Enterprise after 140 game) to SU with 3k PR. Putting aside the fun factor of diving with people you trust, having a good division of 3 players means you can at least, rely on 25% of your team. 

 

I don't really see any valid reason of why WG should not allow division in random, that's basically removing the poor amount of teamplay this game has.

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For balance purposes? Dear god no. Turns out teamwork is broken. However, you have to give players some way to play with friends in randoms and divs are basically it. The pros of having them out weigh the cons.

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Divisions are a force-multiplier that goes both ways and as such do not automatically translate into more wins. A 3x div of skilled players will win more than an individual skilled player, a 3x div of potatoes will lose more than a single potato.

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6 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Divisions are a force-multiplier that goes both ways and as such do not automatically translate into more wins. A 3x div of skilled players will win more than an individual skilled player, a 3x div of potatoes will lose more than a single potato. 

Would be interesting to see whether there are more potato divisions or unicum divs out there, never really thought about that...

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7 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Divisions are a force-multiplier that goes both ways and as such do not automatically translate into more wins. A 3x div of skilled players will win more than an individual skilled player, a 3x div of potatoes will lose more than a single potato.

Pretty much this - thread over.

 

5 hours ago, Zenn3k said:

There was a 3 DD div in one of my games recently, 2 Halland+1 Shima.   They're team lost the game.   I think a major factor in that was that all 3 DDs went to the same cap point, leaving much of the map uncontested

The most favourite div that I run is triple DD, Jutland/Friesland/Kitakaze.  We always go to one cap, wipe it, and then just move through the caps from one side of the map to the other killing everything.  It's borderline unstoppable, and ridiculously fun.

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25 minutes ago, shinytrashcan said:

Would be interesting to see whether there are more potato divisions or unicum divs out there, never really thought about that...

Probably potato divs, as there are far more potatoes than unicums.

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6 hours ago, Herr_Reitz said:

I am wondering if any of you have collected some long-term data that indicates divs in a random game result in more victories for the div team or not.

Twice, large samples of hundreds of games. In both instances the team with at least one more div won 60% of the matches.

6 hours ago, Herr_Reitz said:

I rarely div these days; I know, I probably should div more, but meh... I usually have a good time without divs. But it seems things are falling back into familiar ruts. I'd like to know what you guys think and maybe some of you have the data, one way or the other? 

Far too often it seems, for my battles, where there is one or two divs of two or three folks, the number if the div doesn't seem to matter, our team fails miserably. I rarely see our team winning with the divs. 

My hypothesis or theory is so much of the team is joined together in divs, they aren't responsive, per say, to what the team is doing. The team itself is not paying attention to the divs so things are even worse of a chaotic scene than a normal random match. 

I div with guy who uses MM monitor and another who uses mod that displays on screen. After seeing many divs, I have come to believe they reflect the playerbase -- they are mostly bad.

6 hours ago, Herr_Reitz said:

If you are a constant DIV player, do you communicate to the random team you are with what your goals are, where you're going, that sort of thing? 

Yes, frequently. It helps both tactically and with morale. 

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6 hours ago, shinytrashcan said:

Would be interesting to see whether there are more potato divisions or unicum divs out there, never really thought about that...

Mostly potatoes based on the rare amount of actual unicums there are...but there's also the mixed divs where good players teach potatoes which haven't even been considered/contemplated in this thread yet...& probably makes up the majority of the divs.

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A unicum division can win 90% of their games (or close to that).  They are probably the most unbalancing thing in the game.  But there aren't many of these games compared to total number of games played.

A potato division probably also has an outsized effect on results (I doubt it is a 10% wr though).

Completely removing divisions would remove playing with friends, which would damage the game in ways WG wouldn't like.

 

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