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Merc_R_Us

How will gameplay change with this detectability change? Serious discussion

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How do you Captains think gameplay is going to change with this detectability change? 

All classes are going to be pretty heavily affected by this but I think one that is not being addressed as much are battleships, specifically Battleships built for sniping.

The dependency on destroyers to spot, cap, and kill subs down the line, is going to be pretty immense. Let's not forget to that there are a lot of games where it's just one or two destroyers on maps with plenty of islands to prohibit more spotting. 

Are we going to see less damage overall from ships like the musashi? 

Please try and stay on topic if you can in this one, I really do want to see what you think and not see "well from a meta standpoi- remove CV."

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my musashi will get 9km concealment and start smashing everything that get close. /s

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The detectability changes are being applied only to air detectability, not surface.

I do not see any significant changes towards other ships.  In matches with or without CV's, DD's are still used and expected to spot ships.  If anything DD's will be relied on more to keep ships spotted and CV's Fighter consumables will be less effective in keeping ships spotted.  The ships that rely more on stealth will get a small buff to help with survivability, as in not being detected as easily by aircraft.

 

 

Edited by HeadSplit120

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I like the proposal. Brings CVs into a long range/rapid response fire support role. Something has to give on this whole spotting issue and this could be the fix we are looking for.

It could also mean the MM limits on CVs are removed.

Edited by Sumseaman
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11 minutes ago, HeadSplit120 said:

The detectability changes are being applied only to air detectability, not surface.

I do not see any significant changes towards other ships.  In matches with or without CV's, DD's are still used and expected to spot ships.  If anything DD's will be relied on more to keep ships spotted and CV's Fighter consumables will be less effective in keeping ships spotted.  The ships that rely more on stealth will get a small buff to help with survivability, as in not being detected as easily by aircraft.

 

 

As I don't play battleships often, would u say less damage output overall will occur for battleship snipers as they won't have as much spotting done for them? 

It's certainly all up in the air and all speculation but you think games will be shorter because of the need for ships to move in closer proximity? Or will the change be marginal at best?

 

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11 minutes ago, Sumseaman said:

I like the proposal. Brings CVs into a long range/rapid response fire support role. Something has to give on this whole spotting issue and this could be the fix we are looking for.

It could also mean the MM limits on CVs are removed.

When you say MM limits, so you mean 2 tier X CVs in a game or something else?

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11 minutes ago, Sumseaman said:

It could also mean the MM limits on CVs are removed.

All the CV haters.

-maybe.

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43 minutes ago, Merc_R_Us said:

How do you Captains think gameplay is going to change with this detectability change? 

All classes are going to be pretty heavily affected by this but I think one that is not being addressed as much are battleships, specifically Battleships built for sniping.

The dependency on destroyers to spot, cap, and kill subs down the line, is going to be pretty immense. Let's not forget to that there are a lot of games where it's just one or two destroyers on maps with plenty of islands to prohibit more spotting. 

Are we going to see less damage overall from ships like the musashi? 

Please try and stay on topic if you can in this one, I really do want to see what you think and not see "well from a meta standpoi- remove CV."

You have to look at all three changes together.

1) All ships (Cruiser/Battleship/Carriers/Destroyer/Subs?) have their Air Detection cut about in half.  This means a Des Moines now has around 3.1km air detection.

2) AA takes 7 seconds to spin up to 100% or wind down to 0%, which means if you engage "stealth mode" to avoid plane spotting, you can't go 0 -> 100% while their directly overhead.  Your Priority Sector damage will still eat about half a plane, and the trickle damage should finish it off while the squadron turns/maneuvers while figuring out what it's going to do.  (Strike?  Run?  Recall?)

3) The long-range tracer fire is likely more a courtesy to CV drivers to say "Hey man, you're about to be shot at", though I don't understand why the "beyond maximum range" is 30%.  That seems rather high?  I'm still a bit confused on what the intent for this section of the proposed changes are.

-----

What does this change DO?

 

Early Game:

In the early game, ships can turn off AA for when planes fly immediately across the map on a spotting run.  If the planes want to spot ships with their AA off, the planes have to hard commit to a spawn point.  When the planes get there, all the ships will have the planes within medium/close range AA and can shoot at them or kill any spotting fighters that are placed.  Currently, planes can drop a fighter at a safe distance and keep a spawn point lit up for maybe 30 seconds for the low price of a free consumable charge.

TLDR:  Early game CV spotting DRASTICALLY reduced (for ships that keep AA off for the first minute or so).  Requires more time/plane commitment to do.  Fighter consumable can't spot ship that turn off AA unless they are REALLY close.

 

Mid Game:

Nothing much at all, really.  During the mid game, most ships are spotted by other surface ships.  Either from DDs spotting or gun firing bloom.  There's no reason to NOT have your AA on if you're already spotted, so CVs will attack spotted ships in the same way as they already do now.

TLDR:  When surface ships see each other, AA will be on and it'll feel like nothing is different during this time.

 

Late Game:

As ship numbers dwindle, surface spotting becomes harder and less consistent.  Surviving enemy ships have the option to wind down their AA for "stealth mode" movement as long as they aren't hard spotted by another surface ship.  This makes late-game carrier spotting much harder in general, and also gives more freedom to heavily damaged ships that are trying to slink away from the fight and heal up.  In general, plane spotting will be more crucial, but much harder to do, in the late game.

TLDR:  Late game has less spotting from planes when cutting AA and not hard spotted.  Also, wounded ships can hide for longer with drastically lower aerially detection.

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45 minutes ago, Merc_R_Us said:

How do you Captains think gameplay is going to change with this detectability change? 

All classes are going to be pretty heavily affected by this but I think one that is not being addressed as much are battleships, specifically Battleships built for sniping.

The dependency on destroyers to spot, cap, and kill subs down the line, is going to be pretty immense. Let's not forget to that there are a lot of games where it's just one or two destroyers on maps with plenty of islands to prohibit more spotting. 

Are we going to see less damage overall from ships like the musashi? 

Please try and stay on topic if you can in this one, I really do want to see what you think and not see "well from a meta standpoi- remove CV."

Also, this only affects Aerial Detection.  The surface game has no change other than having a benefit while turning AA off in Cruisers that are trying to sneak to positions early/late game.

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21 minutes ago, Merc_R_Us said:

When you say MM limits, so you mean 2 tier X CVs in a game or something else?

Indeed. If the spotting issues are bought more into check we could even do away with mirroring CVs!

Honestly 2 CVs per team at tier X belongs more than it does at IV...

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50 minutes ago, Merc_R_Us said:

As I don't play battleships often, would u say less damage output overall will occur for battleship snipers as they won't have as much spotting done for them? 

It's certainly all up in the air and all speculation but you think games will be shorter because of the need for ships to move in closer proximity? Or will the change be marginal at best?

 

Marginal.

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It'll hamper that below average from accidentally stumbling upon spotting but for above average players it won't make much difference. 

 In the competitive mode it won't make a difference at all.

 In all reality this is a nerf to AA again.

Edited by Did_I_hurt_U
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1 hour ago, Merc_R_Us said:

As I don't play battleships often, would u say less damage output overall will occur for battleship snipers as they won't have as much spotting done for them? 

It's certainly all up in the air and all speculation but you think games will be shorter because of the need for ships to move in closer proximity? Or will the change be marginal at best?

That's implying players will move up to be effective, they could also hang back in fear of what isn't detected. You could just as easily have players hang even further back because if they don't know where the red DD's are, they won't take the risk.

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34 minutes ago, Did_I_hurt_U said:

In the competitive mode it won't make a difference at all.

It will clearly make a difference in competitive.  It seems like this is the main driver behind the changes, to provide an on demand option for significantly increasing the air concealment of all ships.  This is the number one thing that people who don't like CV's in competitive seem to have an issue with, and it's obviously going to help that issue massively.

Overall this will make it more difficult for a CV to be effective at hitting some of the most important targets, be it low health ships or DD's.  It will make life very easy for DD's, who are already quite strong, and will basically not have to worry about CV's at all if they play well.  This makes me a bit sad, one of the most enjoyable parts of the game for me is playing my DD's against CV's.

I do like the concept though, but I wouldn't be surprised if they have to buff CV's in some way to compensate, be it straight away or after they realise their effect on the game has reduced to unacceptable levels.  It may affect CV population as well, which would really get WG motivated to start some CV buff cycles.

The direction does seem good here, and this is definitely a better concept than the original half concealment for DD idea.

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38 minutes ago, Capt_Ahab1776 said:

I think this will probably be the nerf that brings CV’s to heel finally.

Well in a good way yes. Perhaps many CV players will enjoy it if they can function as a super long range cruiser and not as everyone's spotting and DD hunting biatch.

Enterprise's Hellcat potency will be significantly reduced in the anti-DD role...perhaps that's why they let it loose now. :Smile_teethhappy:

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It will basically reduce CVs to only being able to reasonably attack battleships and ships spotted by other players or to make blind attacks. Most cruisers get down to 3km or so detection(which isn't really enough to line up good attack runs) and DDs might as well be completely invisible with their new 1km detection. In short, many players probably won't even bother playing the class if it goes through as is as it completely neuters CVs. Expect to return to pre-rework CV numbers or lower where you see one every 10+ games or so. Expect the only players to play them to be unicums and masochists again. But hey, on the upside for them now CVs don't have to worry about AA as it would be stupid for most ships to turn it on.

Edited by Tekina_

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3 minutes ago, Tekina_ said:

But hey, on the upside for them now CVs don't have to worry about AA as it would be stupid for most ships to turn it on.

Well it hasn't been indicated on the spotting reduction percentage on each ship type exactly. Yes if you have negligible AA and excellent camo of course you wouldn't have it on unless perma spotted by other means. I believe they said it would be btw 20%-60% reduction depending or are those km values established? Honestly I have only read a bit of the dev blog. 

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13 minutes ago, Sumseaman said:

Well in a good way yes. Perhaps many CV players will enjoy it if they can function as a super long range cruiser and not as everyone's spotting and DD hunting biatch.

Enterprise's Hellcat potency will be significantly reduced in the anti-DD role...perhaps that's why they let it loose now. :Smile_teethhappy:

Actually, think about the still in testing FDR. Think orders will soar for something with nerfed spotting do you? RIP marketing lol

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6 minutes ago, Tekina_ said:

But hey, on the upside for them now CVs don't have to worry about AA as it would be stupid for most ships to turn it on.

Exactly.  It's actually a fairly clever way to address both the spotting issues with CVs and the fact that AA feels worthless as a primary counter.

But, it's just one more example of how CVs are either going to feel overpowered to their targets or useless to the CV driver. 

It's almost like they just don't fit in the surface game.  Or the surface game was designed to provide human targets for the CV.  I think you could make the case, either way.

 

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1 minute ago, Capt_Ahab1776 said:

Actually, think about the still in testing FDR. Think orders will soar for something with nerfed spotting do you? RIP marketing lol

Mebe it will be held back until these changes are confirmed. It could be just for coal so still a viable purchase.

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2 minutes ago, Sumseaman said:

Mebe it will be held back until these changes are confirmed. It could be just for coal so still a viable purchase.

LoL it may be a door prize if it seriously nerfs demand to nil

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9 minutes ago, Sumseaman said:

Well it hasn't been indicated on the spotting reduction percentage on each ship type exactly. Yes if you have negligible AA and excellent camo of course you wouldn't have it on unless perma spotted by other means. I believe they said it would be btw 20%-60% reduction depending or are those km values established? Honestly I have only read a bit of the dev blog. 

They said 40-60% reduction so we can estimate where ships might end up. Taking something like a DM for example, it would have between 3.8 and 2.5 air concealment depending on the values.

Edited by Tekina_

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4 minutes ago, CommodoreKang said:

Exactly.  It's actually a fairly clever way to address both the spotting issues with CVs and the fact that AA feels worthless as a primary counter.

But, it's just one more example of how CVs are either going to feel overpowered to their targets or useless to the CV driver. 

It's almost like they just don't fit in the surface game.  Or the surface game was designed to provide human targets for the CV.  I think you could make the case, either way.

 

Yes and there will be a skill gap present between carrier drivers though hopefully closer to that experienced when playing other types. Even with these changes I still think the current iteration of carriers is far easier to play than the RTS version so that would still retain population.

3 minutes ago, Capt_Ahab1776 said:

LoL it may be a door prize if it seriously nerfs demand to nil

Oh well they may just decide to buff its damage or hangar size! They could do the same to other carriers......remember little Ahab....it is easier to buff single ships than to nerf them...

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