Jump to content
You need to play a total of 20 battles to post in this section.
CrazyHorse_Denver

DDs and CV sniping.

21 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

Members
1,598 posts
18,395 battles

For the first couple of years here I was cruiser main and for the past couple years I've been a BB main; so defending DD mains and their tactics feels strange to me but here goes.

I've often taken my DDs CV sniping. Sometimes being successful and many times not but just the attempt is not the big waste of time that many make it out to be. Just because a DD isn't were you want it to be to be your eyes doesn't mean it's not providing the team useful information; as long as it's going forward toward the red team it's telling you something.

Let's take a closer look at what's actually going on and how you can put this particular DD tactic to your advantage.

No opposition: You've lucked out and the entire red team lemming trained to the other side of the board and now you're in the red backfield and what does that tell your team. Well there's an entire flank that's open to be pushed. Is there a cap over there that someone can dash and take? Can you now safely take up a cross fire position that you wouldn't have taken if you still suspected red ships over there. Knowing where the enemy isn't at is often as important as knowing where they are. Even if you haven't found the CV yet you're probably locating BBs that are hanging out in the back. How is this not useful info for your team.

Opposition: All right, you've done one of the jobs a DD is supposed to do you've located some red ships, now you got a decision to make; do you fight your way through or smoke up, cut and run. If you've run into half the red team the choice is obvious you cut and run hoping that the reds were just as startled as you were and it's taking them time to swing their guns around. In the mean time while your fate is being determined by RNGesus your team now knows were a major portion of the red team is at.

If it's only one or two ships there is the temptation to fight your way through. You'll lose the element of surprise but now many red players are keeping it in the backs of their minds that there's a DD over there and anytime you can give a red player something to divide their attention it helps your team. If it's another DD you've spotted then they've probably spotted you; at that point it depends on ship types for if you're going to take up the fight or not. For CAs and BBs it's easy to spot them long before they spot you. Can you safely continue around them keeping the element of surprise or do you want to send a salvo of torps into their side. Being far away from the main action many BBs will be driving in a straight line making them fat and easy targets.

Psychological warfare: Think about how you have reacted those times it's happened to you. All of a sudden you get the torp warning blaring in your ears and you see torps coming in from behind you and you're the BB that's stayed behind on the back line; isn't the reaction, "Oh sh!t, were did those come from!" Or your team is lucky enough to spot the DD before he starts to fire isn't the reaction, "Damn, how did he get back there." Threat priorities suddenly change as the reds are now being distracted and this is the time for the green team to take advantage of that distraction.

No CVs: The tactic really needs a new name because even if there are no CVs to hunt all of the advantages to having a DD in the red backfield causing them conniption fits still exist as well as all the intel provided by the DD in getting there.

All these arm chair admirals out there have to get over the fact that certain ships are not doing what they want them to do and take advantage of what they are actually doing for the team. I've caused tons of havoc in just a single DD so I can see how these 3 DD divisions working together can be a major headache for the reds as they work their way into the red backfield.

I remember the very first time I went CV sniping. It was a glorious success even though I never got close to the red CV. I was spawned so far out on the left flank it would have been a waste of time moving to the center of the map so I decided to just go around the flank and see if the red CV had taken up position behind an island that was a popular place on this map for CVs to hide. I had gotten around the flank and was behind a CA that was engaging a couple team mates. I fired torps at him not in the hope of actually hitting him but to distract him. I continue on my way and guess what... boom... dead CA. Now of course the red team knew that they had a problem on their hands and I was under constant air attack after that but my fast and nimble Isokaze dodged them all and in the meantime they were air attacks not being made on my slower easier to hit team mates. The CV wasn't were I thought it would be but the red team cap was close by and ready to be taken. The Wyoming that dropped back to defend the cap was a brave soul but didn't stand a chance as I could dance around him twice as fast as his guns could turn while I pumped torps into him. So dead BB, cap taken and game won. With those kind of results I find it hard to understand why people argue that you shouldn't even try it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
740
[PROJX]
Beta Testers
1,225 posts
5,385 battles

If you are able to be useful to the team when doing that, sure, it's called flanking and has its place. 

However, what usually happens is to avoid enemies, the DD goes so far away that it's no use to anybody. Not to mention the fact that it's all moot if the CV decides he wants to hunt you down, or how unlikely you will be able to actually catch a CV that has half a brain cell. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,598 posts
18,395 battles
8 minutes ago, PotatoMD said:

If you are able to be useful to the team when doing that, sure, it's called flanking and has its place. 

However, what usually happens is to avoid enemies, the DD goes so far away that it's no use to anybody. Not to mention the fact that it's all moot if the CV decides he wants to hunt you down, or how unlikely you will be able to actually catch a CV that has half a brain cell. 

Well players not having enough brain cells to take advantage of what other team mates are doing is kind of the point I was trying to make.

Taking away the eyes in the sky to a remote part of the map is not an advantage to your team?

Bringing the air attacks to your fast moving ship and away from slower easier to hit team mates isn't an advantage to the team?

As you point out flanking has it's place.  It's a hard and difficult thing to do but when done right reaps large rewards. What I'm opposed to are those players that argue that it shouldn't even be tried because they want the DD to be somewhere else doing something else.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
980
[-TKS-]
[-TKS-]
Members
1,159 posts
8,956 battles

Every situation is different. Every player that attempts it is different. In my opinion, a destroyer is meant to:

  • Cap
  • Spot
  • Launch Torps, and
  • Destroy enemy Destroyers 

When a DD is going along the side, not shooting torps, just hunting a Carrier, they are doing 1 of the 4. Now, if they are launch torps, ok that's 2 of 4. 

Now, if a DD is going into a Cap, being mindful of radar and the enemy CV, they are potentially accomplishing all 4. 

People can play how they want, that's fine and that's fair. Do you think you'll keep that in mind if your CV goes headlong in to use his secondaries in the middle of the game because he wants to, or should the captain be doing what is probably more beneficial for the team? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
816
[META_]
Members
1,831 posts
18,967 battles
37 minutes ago, CrazyHorse_Denver said:

Well players not having enough brain cells to take advantage of what other team mates are doing is kind of the point I was trying to make.

Taking away the eyes in the sky to a remote part of the map is not an advantage to your team?

Bringing the air attacks to your fast moving ship and away from slower easier to hit team mates isn't an advantage to the team?

As you point out flanking has it's place.  It's a hard and difficult thing to do but when done right reaps large rewards. What I'm opposed to are those players that argue that it shouldn't even be tried because they want the DD to be somewhere else doing something else.

All the words in the forums sounds logical to someone and sounds not like not a team player to another.....bottom line  is do you have a good Winrate doing this?  If so its intelligent if not its a wasted resource for the team....i do things not quite traditionally all the time either but my dd Winrate says it is a winning strategy...at the end of the day if it helps the Winrate great and you might have found a new way to beat meta....if not reevaluate and adjust a little at a time till you figure it out 

Edited by Meta_Man

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
816
[META_]
Members
1,831 posts
18,967 battles
3 minutes ago, Merc_R_Us said:

Every situation is different. Every player that attempts it is different. In my opinion, a destroyer is meant to:

  • Cap
  • Spot
  • Launch Torps, and
  • Destroy enemy Destroyers 

When a DD is going along the side, not shooting torps, just hunting a Carrier, they are doing 1 of the 4. Now, if they are launch torps, ok that's 2 of 4. 

Now, if a DD is going into a Cap, being mindful of radar and the enemy CV, they are potentially accomplishing all 4. 

People can play how they want, that's fine and that's fair. Do you think you'll keep that in mind if your CV goes headlong in to use his secondaries in the middle of the game because he wants to, or should the captain be doing what is probably more beneficial for the team? 

I'm a knuckle dragger....i cap and kill things

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,257
[BONKS]
Members
2,861 posts
52 battles

CVs have the highest practical mid-range DPM by far and it is laughably easy for them to use both their hull concealment and plane concealment to triangulate your position then kill you long before you even get into torp range or waste any significant amount of time. A CV that cannot do this is incompetent and thus not a threat to begin with.

Therefore CV sniping is in fact a waste of time.

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
66
[HARU]
Beta Testers
117 posts
6,445 battles

As usual the options are never binary. It is only inexperienced players that insist things are binary. Some players ONLY want to do an end run even if they are the ONLY DD because of that one time last year when it worked to perfection. That is poor play. Those players will also not turn around if the entire enemy team is in front of them. It is those players that draw much ire from their comrades. If you are smart about it(and it sounds like you are) then Yes, it can be helpful.

Can a 'surprise' run up the middle in Brothers work? Sure, maybe 5% of time, when the right timing and combination of things occur. Later in the game, definitely more often. It gets annoying that in over 50% of the games someone YOLOs the channel even with a CV in game because it might be fun. Odds don't favor it. Experienced and intelligent players don't do it because they play the odds. That is why Win rate matters. If you can do these manuevers and usually win doing it then don't let that BB in the back row German BB tell you otherwise. If you find it usually backfires(you die early and alone doing 5k damage) and lets a yugumo right up to your BBs doorstep, then please stop doing it and screen your fellow players. You don't have the timing and skills needed to pull it off.

I believe most of the complaints other classes have when they are played sub-optimally(in their opinion) is due to folks thinking the other player is clueless and will get themselves dead without any contribution, leading to a loss. Thats why you get the reports and such early in the battle when that players ends up being MVP later with highest score.

Eh... rambling on ... sorry. Enjoy!

 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10,691
[SALVO]
Members
26,321 posts
30,384 battles
1 hour ago, thebigblue said:

^^^^ THIS GUY GETS IT!!!

No, he doesn't.

Rogue DDs trying to run down CVs in the rear areas of the enemy's side of the map is a waste of time and resources, for any tier above 5.  On top of that, any ship that has Radio Location and is somewhat near the rogue DD will know that there's an enemy DD in their rear and they can either hunt it down, or just let their CV hunt it down.  And frankly, unless the DD can do some heavy damage with its torpedoes, I just don't see any DD out gunning a CV's planes, unless the DD's AA is outstanding, because loosely speaking, the DD has to do about 3-4 times as much damage to the CV as the CV has to do to the DD.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
740
[PROJX]
Beta Testers
1,225 posts
5,385 battles
49 minutes ago, CrazyHorse_Denver said:

Well players not having enough brain cells to take advantage of what other team mates are doing is kind of the point I was trying to make.

Taking away the eyes in the sky to a remote part of the map is not an advantage to your team?

Bringing the air attacks to your fast moving ship and away from slower easier to hit team mates isn't an advantage to the team?

It's not when you take your DD out of the battle. 

If you are close enough to help your team when flanking, and you're spotted, your chances of survival aren't great. 

Also, rockets exist. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
767
[NUWES]
Members
3,430 posts
12,799 battles
6 minutes ago, Crucis said:

No, he doesn't.

Rogue DDs trying to run down CVs in the rear areas of the enemy's side of the map is a waste of time and resources, for any tier above 5.  On top of that, any ship that has Radio Location and is somewhat near the rogue DD will know that there's an enemy DD in their rear and they can either hunt it down, or just let their CV hunt it down.  And frankly, unless the DD can do some heavy damage with its torpedoes, I just don't see any DD out gunning a CV's planes, unless the DD's AA is outstanding, because loosely speaking, the DD has to do about 3-4 times as much damage to the CV as the CV has to do to the DD.

 

I pretty much agree with  you. It isn't that effective unless the CV player sucks AND his team lemmings to one side to give you an opening. Also trading off your DD life to attempt to kill the CV is not efficient. DDs provide most of the spotting and capping for teams. If they are slinking around the back to get to the CV they are doing neither. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8,413
[GGWP]
Members
7,582 posts
17,943 battles

Every one of these games was run with the intent to win and kill the CV. All of them in a triple div.

image.thumb.png.f7b26ac1d637c88c0f1be52cdee42518.png

I'm not sure of our numbers for CV's killed. I know last night in 6 games, we personally killed 5 of the 7 CV's we faced and won every game. Being hyper aggressive is a great strat if you can pull it off.

1. First order of business is to take a cap (if domination) and get one or 2 quick kills and put the enemy team on their back foot. Usually one of those kills will be a DD and helps your team out if your 3 DD's are sticking together.

2. Being hyper aggressive and getting into the enemy's backfield gives your team spotting. Enemy ships sitting behind islands on their side of the map are all of a sudden getting spotted.

3. Because you typically get some early kills and open up an area of the map and get into the backfield fast, enemy teams get very concerned about that and feed themselves to you one at a time. Or if you are the Parseval from last night that recognizes what is going on and convinces 2/3 of his team to charge you, the enemy team throws away the game in an attempt to stop you. In the Parseval game, sure he survived, but in a T10 game, we 3 DD's stayed alive pretty much close to the end, killed like 5-6 ships between us and our team won the other flanks easily. We finished top of the team, and won easily despite not killing the CV. 

Edited by Ducky_shot
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
424
[WOLFH]
Members
986 posts
4,782 battles

As long as the sniping DD is somewhat useful for the team I don’t mind, but some go to great lengths to avoid everything, and end up doing nothing... it’s fine its their gamble,... just don’t start requesting support or AA cover when any support is half the map away.

And I more than welcome when the red DD tries to snipe my GZ. :Smile_trollface:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,837
[SIDE]
Members
4,939 posts
25 minutes ago, Crucis said:

No, he doesn't.

Rogue DDs trying to run down CVs in the rear areas of the enemy's side of the map is a waste of time and resources, for any tier above 5.  On top of that, any ship that has Radio Location and is somewhat near the rogue DD will know that there's an enemy DD in their rear and they can either hunt it down, or just let their CV hunt it down.  And frankly, unless the DD can do some heavy damage with its torpedoes, I just don't see any DD out gunning a CV's planes, unless the DD's AA is outstanding, because loosely speaking, the DD has to do about 3-4 times as much damage to the CV as the CV has to do to the DD.

 

Hmm. I may have misread his strategy. it seemed he spawned way out on a weak flank at a low tier where he's has enourmous speed and concealment advantage without the fear of radar or much hydro. In this case he carefully pressed a surprising distance into enemy lines, sunk a cruiser and spotted the carrier location for the team. In doing so he distracted the planes from team mates less able to dodge attacks and equally lame with AA. I didn't see a downside in his example which is why I thought it was a perfect one for others to emulate.

I understand it's not the end all be all of destroyer strategy and that great risks to person and team are at stake if its improperly utilized and goes wrong. It takes experience and practice to know when to try it. It is hilariously fun when it works out and a real moral boost for the player and the team.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
151 posts
4,371 battles

I'm not a fan of CV sniping as a solo DD player. CVs have RIDICULOUS levels of health and armor and take absolutely zero DoTs, so unless you can get close enough and land a perfect torpedo strike the time to kill them is way too long. Meanwhile the amount of time it takes them to kill you with rockets or HE DBs is absolutely laughable, they can murder you within a minute. Even if you trade successfully because the CV was a stationary potato who didn't start moving 30kts+ after you spotted him to make it difficult to properly torp him, they tend to chunk off so much of your HP you're an easy kill for the enemy DDs and whatever flank you would have been on collapses without you and you look back from killing their CV to find an unwinnable match.

Finally you tend to get focused down by their team while they spot you and so even if the CV doesn't kill you, the cruisers often will.

Obviously that changes if you're in a sweaty triple div with unicum level DD players and you've already rampaged through the map and butchered every enemy DD in your path.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
368
[WOLF1]
Members
1,120 posts
2,183 battles
1 hour ago, Highblooded said:

As usual the options are never binary. It is only inexperienced players that insist things are binary. Some players ONLY want to do an end run even if they are the ONLY DD because of that one time last year when it worked to perfection. That is poor play. Those players will also not turn around if the entire enemy team is in front of them. It is those players that draw much ire from their comrades. If you are smart about it(and it sounds like you are) then Yes, it can be helpful.

Can a 'surprise' run up the middle in Brothers work? Sure, maybe 5% of time, when the right timing and combination of things occur. Later in the game, definitely more often. It gets annoying that in over 50% of the games someone YOLOs the channel even with a CV in game because it might be fun. Odds don't favor it. Experienced and intelligent players don't do it because they play the odds. That is why Win rate matters. If you can do these manuevers and usually win doing it then don't let that BB in the back row German BB tell you otherwise. If you find it usually backfires(you die early and alone doing 5k damage) and lets a yugumo right up to your BBs doorstep, then please stop doing it and screen your fellow players. You don't have the timing and skills needed to pull it off.

I believe most of the complaints other classes have when they are played sub-optimally(in their opinion) is due to folks thinking the other player is clueless and will get themselves dead without any contribution, leading to a loss. Thats why you get the reports and such early in the battle when that players ends up being MVP later with highest score.

Eh... rambling on ... sorry. Enjoy!

 

 

Yeah, like that time I took my scharhorst down the middle.....two empty torpedo launchers and  a lot of secondary gun reloads later I an capping the enemy base looking at two dead DDs and three dead cruisers

 

no I didn’t kill of of them but contributed greatly

Edited by Boomer625

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
66
[HARU]
Beta Testers
117 posts
6,445 battles

And you can do that most every time right? As I said... " Sure, maybe 5% of time, when the right timing and combination of things occur. "

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,598 posts
18,395 battles

I like the reply that said, "the options are never binary." Just as I would never suggest that a flanking move always be tried I object to players saying that it should never be attempted. It's one of those high risk high reward situations that need to be carefully considered before attempting it. Fleet compositions, both red and green, what map you're on and where you got spawned at the beginning are a few of the considerations you have to take into account.

When I get spawned so far out on a flank that it's in another zip code how much help can I be to the team other than seeing what the reds have out here on this side of the map. Or I can waste minutes of time getting back to the middle of the map or join the green lemming train headed to the other side of the map. Which is more useful to the team in that situation.

Capping is a primary DD job... OK, what if the only cap to be taken is the one in the enemy backfield.

Spotting... The DD is doing that where ever they are. Just because they aren't where you want them to be or you can not or will not use the intel they are sending you doesn't mean they are playing their DD poorly.

Boarder hugging is just as bad when a DD does it as when a CA or BB does it and no where have I suggested that a turning the flank move be done at such extremes. It increases the distance needed to travel and often puts you out of spotting range. Just stay far enough away from the red ships that they can't see you while you can still see them. Easy to do if all the opposition consists of are CAs and BBs. Red DDs are of course the bain of your existence because they'll see you as soon as you see them...but maybe... the one or two DDs on the red team are doing the "right" thing and are off in the middle of the map leaving the red flanks blind allowing you to slip around them.

As I said in the OP I'm a BB main, DDs are the enemy and one of the reasons they're such a big pain in the aft is their stealthy ability to suddenly pop up behind you. If you're one of those BB mains that always insist that a DD be right out in front of you spotting for you instead of realizing that a DD can contribute to a win in other ways then it's you my friend that is holding your team back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10,691
[SALVO]
Members
26,321 posts
30,384 battles
2 hours ago, ComradeTsushima said:

I'm not a fan of CV sniping as a solo DD player. CVs have RIDICULOUS levels of health and armor and take absolutely zero DoTs, so unless you can get close enough and land a perfect torpedo strike the time to kill them is way too long. Meanwhile the amount of time it takes them to kill you with rockets or HE DBs is absolutely laughable, they can murder you within a minute. Even if you trade successfully because the CV was a stationary potato who didn't start moving 30kts+ after you spotted him to make it difficult to properly torp him, they tend to chunk off so much of your HP you're an easy kill for the enemy DDs and whatever flank you would have been on collapses without you and you look back from killing their CV to find an unwinnable match.

Finally you tend to get focused down by their team while they spot you and so even if the CV doesn't kill you, the cruisers often will.

Obviously that changes if you're in a sweaty triple div with unicum level DD players and you've already rampaged through the map and butchered every enemy DD in your path.

The problem is that if you try to approach a CV in open water, his Situational Awareness is going to let him know that he's been spotted by a ship, most likely a DD if he can't see anything.  And at that point, a smart CV player should start a serious DD hunt.  From my experience, the best chance of killing an enemy CV is if it's hiding behind an island and sitting still.  You can see the planes coming and going, so you know that the CV's there.  And if the DD player is smart, he'll have his AA off to not engage those planes until absolutely necessary.  And if luck is on your side, you can come screaming around the island and catch the CV parked and dump all your torps into him.  IMHO, it works best for DDs that have at least 2 racks of torps, because those single racked DDs don't have enough torpedo power (unless they're IJN and have a torp reload booster) to quickly sink the CV in question.

I don't think that CVs have "ridiculous" levels of HP.  Fleet carriers are just as large as battleships.  Heck, some of them were converted from battleships during the BB's construction.  The Kaga, for example.  However, you're right that CVs can sink a DD faster than a DD can sink a CV.  Add to that the fact that as a DD gets closer to the CV, the shorter the flight time is for the CV's planes, meaning that they can be attacking you almost constantly.  Also, starting at tier 6 and above, carriers are pretty fast ships, and if a CV decides to run away from a DD, nothing short of a Russian or better a French DD is going to catch up to them.  And in a stern chase, you'd need massively long range torps to reach the CV in a stern chase.

Frankly, if your team is in gun range of the enemy carrier and your DD can keep it spotted while remaining concealed, that's probably the better option.  But all in all, DD's are usually better employed in other pursuits.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×