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Singularity_invader

Improve Co-ops Please

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Seriously, WG, invest on artificial intelligence and make the bots more human-like. Hardly any live player could dodge every torpedo from a distance further than 2 km, yet couldn't move around a sunken ship. Those bots are illogical.

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Never mind the bots. Use them as bait to draw fire and then sink the other team ship before they shift fire to you.

Once in a while Bot and I will have a traffic conflict and they will give me the right of way but not always. Unlike some humans lolz.

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1 minute ago, xHeavy said:

Never mind the bots. Use them as bait to draw fire and then sink the other team ship before they shift fire to you.

Once in a while Bot and I will have a traffic conflict and they will give me the right of way but not always. Unlike some humans lolz.

Doesn't change the fact that those bots are still flawed, IMHO.

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Just now, Singularity_invader said:

Doesn't change the fact that those bots are still flawed, IMHO.

Sure. And they want to robotize long haul 18 wheelers. They are already running actual loads with a robot truck following a human driven lead tractor trailer now in the west.

It will be a can of worms or a few buckets of rattlesnakes for a coder to consider all the possibilities for a bot ship to become human like in game. I just don't see it happening any time soon.

I remember about 30 years ago when first person shooters started up. Bots in those were easy kills as long they don't detect you first. And they were like statues then.

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1 minute ago, xHeavy said:

Sure. And they want to robotize long haul 18 wheelers. They are already running actual loads with a robot truck following a human driven lead tractor trailer now in the west.

It will be a can of worms or a few buckets of rattlesnakes for a coder to consider all the possibilities for a bot ship to become human like in game. I just don't see it happening any time soon.

I remember about 30 years ago when first person shooters started up. Bots in those were easy kills as long they don't detect you first. And they were like statues then.

There are already multiplayer games with great AI in the market, the developers facilitated machine learning with big data, so bots could be self-learning. Battlefield 1 is an example.

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1 hour ago, Singularity_invader said:

There are already multiplayer games with great AI in the market, the developers facilitated machine learning with big data, so bots could be self-learning. Battlefield 1 is an example.

The BF and COD games are massive juggernauts of their industry. Not saying its impossible to make good AI but this is a tiny studio in comparison.

At it's heart, this is a PVP game and coop/operations are kind of an afterthought.  I am very glad they they are there and I play them very often but, they are not the money makers of this game.  Random mode is what sells ships.

If WG wanted to, they could make the bots laser accurate to hit your citadel from across the map. They could crank up the rudders to 11 and give them more magic super powers than they have now.  They could make them mop the floor with us, with some easy numbers changes.  It wouldn't be very fun for us though.

I don't think WG particularly likes coop, it isn't great for the income.  They have made changes over the years that make it less and less "profitable" for us, but they know that a whole bunch of people will be very upset if they mess with it too much.  Equally, they don't get much return, if they put a lot of development time into it.

Considering we are still missing a whole bunch of operations and they said they don't have any plans to fix them and put them back, I wouldn't hold my breath for any bot overhauls.

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WG uses Coop as punishment for team damage violations so it just shows you what they think of it.

Edited by Final8ty
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36 minutes ago, Burnsy said:

The BF and COD games are massive juggernauts of their industry. Not saying its impossible to make good AI but this is a tiny studio in comparison.

At it's heart, this is a PVP game and coop/operations are kind of an afterthought.  I am very glad they they are there and I play them very often but, they are not the money makers of this game.  Random mode is what sells ships.

If WG wanted to, they could make the bots laser accurate to hit your citadel from across the map. They could crank up the rudders to 11 and give them more magic super powers than they have now.  They could make them mop the floor with us, with some easy numbers changes.  It wouldn't be very fun for us though.

I don't think WG particularly likes coop, it isn't great for the income.  They have made changes over the years that make it less and less "profitable" for us, but they know that a whole bunch of people will be very upset if they mess with it too much.  Equally, they don't get much return, if they put a lot of development time into it.

Considering we are still missing a whole bunch of operations and they said they don't have any plans to fix them and put them back, I wouldn't hold my breath for any bot overhauls.

Yeah, WG supports Co-op only to the extent to keep PvE players happy enough to spend a few bucks here and there, and not just leave the game. It isn't a big deal.

 

It must burn their butts on some level that a portion of players refuse to be sucked into Randoms, thereby increasing PvP queue times and handicapping the MM  pool. OTOH, a less than optimum customer is better than no customer.

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3 hours ago, Singularity_invader said:

Seriously, WG, invest on artificial intelligence and make the bots more human-like. Hardly any live player could dodge every torpedo from a distance further than 2 km, yet couldn't move around a sunken ship. Those bots are illogical.

If not the best way to phrase it IMO, I agree with something being put into game that prevents a bot going into a ship that is in the process of sinking; something akin to the island avoidance mechanic. To stress I am fine when they do this to avoid torpedoes - in fact I think it's great when they pull a Notser on an island or ship to avoid torps (smart AI thinking lol).

In addition I would like to see the early ramming into each other changed and maybe ramming only entering the equation at the '25% HP remaining' stage. If they haven't entered 25% zone, then they don't ram but try to continue to remain in game.

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They were testing better bots ages ago but the coop players complained it was too hard... so i guess coop players like winning in 4 mins and having no challenge at all.

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1 minute ago, EraserNZ1 said:

They were testing better bots ages ago but the coop players complained it was too hard... so i guess coop players like winning in 4 mins and having no challenge at all.

WG did attempt to improve bot play, but the changes only made the bots very accurate.  Those changes had to be reversed. Co-op players in general would still like to see some AI improvement, but that change was not it.  There have been some changes that stuck...bots hit islands a lot less than they used to, and now they sometimes stop and back up.  More improvements could be made.

But your statement is inflammatory.

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17 minutes ago, EraserNZ1 said:

They were testing better bots ages ago but the coop players complained it was too hard... so i guess coop players like winning in 4 mins and having no challenge at all.

Nobody complained about it being too hard.  What they did is make the bots kite to the edge of the maps.


It was the most boring thing possible.

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10 minutes ago, Anonymous50 said:

Nobody complained about it being too hard.  What they did is make the bots kite to the edge of the maps.


It was the most boring thing possible.

meanwhile in standar battles, kitting to the edge has become the norm :Smile_facepalm:

how about this, 2 enemy bots for every player, that way bots can put some resistance without having to put much effort.

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1 hour ago, Final8ty said:

WG uses Coop as punishment for team damage violations so it just shows you what they think of it.

Not really I only go to coop to play out my punishment because there’s less ships so less chance of a collusion . And the games are much faster so less time spent being pink . I often find myself enjoying coop when I go there .

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48 minutes ago, EraserNZ1 said:

They were testing better bots ages ago but the coop players complained it was too hard... so i guess coop players like winning in 4 mins and having no challenge at all.

Why do people persist in this mythological narrative?

All the "improved" bots did was act like the worst players in Randoms, running away as soon as they were spotted, "repositioning" by going in circles behind islands where they had no LOF to anything, "kiting" towards the nearest map edge whenever they got hit, etc.  It took all of a battle or two to adapt to it, and then Co-op battles were no more challenging, just drug out to twice as long for the same paltry payouts.

They weren't hated because they were "better" or "more challenging", they were hated because they were garbage.

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4 hours ago, Singularity_invader said:

There are already multiplayer games with great AI in the market, the developers facilitated machine learning with big data, so bots could be self-learning. Battlefield 1 is an example.

I know, Ive lived them for near 20 years now all of it from Novalogic days.

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2 hours ago, Burnsy said:

I don't think WG particularly likes coop, it isn't great for the income.  They have made changes over the years that make it less and less "profitable" for us, but they know that a whole bunch of people will be very upset if they mess with it too much.  Equally, they don't get much return, if they put a lot of development time into it.

I think this is false. Almost every Co-op main I know spends and spends a LOT on the game. Some are FTP sure but I see tons of whales like myself who only Co-op. As a group there may be less income from Co-op players but that is only due to it being a smaller player base (in large part due to WG and how the game is setup not that more wouldn't play it) vs PVP mains. If it were me I would look at the income generated p/ player and then compare that to income p/ player in PVP. Obviously none of us know the #'s but I wouldn't be surprised at all to see the #'s close to each other. This idea that floats out there that Co-op mains don't spend at all or as much as PVP mains it utter bull IMO.

2 hours ago, Kaigun_Chusa said:

Yeah, WG supports Co-op only to the extent to keep PvE players happy enough to spend a few bucks here and there, and not just leave the game. It isn't a big deal.

 

It must burn their butts on some level that a portion of players refuse to be sucked into Randoms, thereby increasing PvP queue times and handicapping the MM  pool. OTOH, a less than optimum customer is better than no customer.

A few bucks here and there huh? Want to compare spending?

1 hour ago, EraserNZ1 said:

They were testing better bots ages ago but the coop players complained it was too hard... so i guess coop players like winning in 4 mins and having no challenge at all.

100% wrong. This false narrative continues to be spread by forum members, CC's, WG themselves, etc... and it could not be any further from the truth. The so called "improved bots" were not harder to play against in any way shape nor form. IF anything they were easier because WG turned them into clones of PVP players who refused to fight and just run away. The normal bots may be predictable and do really stupid things but they are hard chargers and they can shoot and fight. Those "improved bots" were the lamest thing I ever saw. Only changes they brought were extending the game on and on and on for no alteration of the outcome or payout. 

With that said, at the same time they actually had them use their smoke, WASD more, and be less predictable as far as where they would go at spawn. THOSE changes were great and highly praised. We just asked WG to remove the chicken bots that did nothing but run as soon as the fighting started and leave the rest of the changes.  But, WG took their ball and went home and made even the good changes go away.

1 hour ago, desmo_2 said:

WG did attempt to improve bot play, but the changes only made the bots very accurate.  Those changes had to be reversed. Co-op players in general would still like to see some AI improvement, but that change was not it.  There have been some changes that stuck...bots hit islands a lot less than they used to, and now they sometimes stop and back up.  More improvements could be made.

But your statement is inflammatory.

Nah, the accuracy of the bots didn't change. Well, maybe at the lowest tiers they bumped it up as I think back on it. I remember some players who tried like T1 and T2 and called the bots terminators but it was only there really and the only concern was it was too much for new players not veterans. The changes made were using smoke, more WASD, less predictable routes at spawn, and then making them play like PVP players who are afraid to fight and run at the 1st sign of the enemy (not ALL PVP players - I refer to the specific group that play like they are afraid).

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What i remember the AI's used on the test server with the subs were the improved AI's thats comming from a Flamu vid i watched about subs ages ago.

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9 hours ago, Singularity_invader said:

Seriously, WG, invest on artificial intelligence and make the bots more human-like. Hardly any live player could dodge every torpedo from a distance further than 2 km, yet couldn't move around a sunken ship. Those bots are illogical.

Having been around what many are saying are examples of the next iteration of gaming AI.......well, a great many players wouldn't stay in the game.  Understand, KBE and intuitive, big data AI's are built to a standard that supports the business and vision of the game/functions they support (i.e. Learning AI's are different that Gaming AI's...)  This game couldn't support a next gen AI because the game is a 1D arcade shooter.  And, let's be honest, our host couldn't afford that level of technology;........heck, they can't even get Scenarios fixed and back into play......   This is just a game to enjoy at face value........because, there is nothing more there !

By the way, many of us are PVE only, for a reason:  I believe PVP is a terrible product and lacks the quality to invest my time and money in.  And, rather than leave the game, I play PVE:  it's that bad and getting worse. 

4 hours ago, AdmiralThunder said:

I think this is false. Almost every Co-op main I know spends and spends a LOT on the game. Some are FTP sure but I see tons of whales like myself who only Co-op. As a group there may be less income from Co-op players but that is only due to it being a smaller player base (in large part due to WG and how the game is setup not that more wouldn't play it) vs PVP mains. If it were me I would look at the income generated p/ player and then compare that to income p/ player in PVP. Obviously none of us know the #'s but I wouldn't be surprised at all to see the #'s close to each other. This idea that floats out there that Co-op mains don't spend at all or as much as PVP mains it utter bull IMO.

A few bucks here and there huh? Want to compare spending?

100% wrong. This false narrative continues to be spread by forum members, CC's, WG themselves, etc... and it could not be any further from the truth. The so called "improved bots" were not harder to play against in any way shape nor form. IF anything they were easier because WG turned them into clones of PVP players who refused to fight and just run away. The normal bots may be predictable and do really stupid things but they are hard chargers and they can shoot and fight. Those "improved bots" were the lamest thing I ever saw. Only changes they brought were extending the game on and on and on for no alteration of the outcome or payout. 

With that said, at the same time they actually had them use their smoke, WASD more, and be less predictable as far as where they would go at spawn. THOSE changes were great and highly praised. We just asked WG to remove the chicken bots that did nothing but run as soon as the fighting started and leave the rest of the changes.  But, WG took their ball and went home and made even the good changes go away.

Nah, the accuracy of the bots didn't change. Well, maybe at the lowest tiers they bumped it up as I think back on it. I remember some players who tried like T1 and T2 and called the bots terminators but it was only there really and the only concern was it was too much for new players not veterans. The changes made were using smoke, more WASD, less predictable routes at spawn, and then making them play like PVP players who are afraid to fight and run at the 1st sign of the enemy (not ALL PVP players - I refer to the specific group that play like they are afraid).

I agree Fearless CO Leader.  Well said.  What our host requires is the speed at which one spends......  The harder the gimmick the faster the profit in a new gimmick.  PVE is too slow.  The throughput is higher than PVP but, the spending isn't as influenced by gimmicks as PVP is and the profit stream is slower........  And that, is why I'd guess Scenarios and COOP are second fiddle:.........gimmicks affect PVE less.   I believe they are missing the point.  But, what do I know>>???

Well said.

Edited by Asym_KS
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Co-op is just fine the way it is. Besides, WG isn't much interested in investing in it.

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1 minute ago, Balon_Greyjoy said:

Co-op is just fine the way it is. Besides, WG isn't much interested in investing in it.

No, COOP is not fine, Try again.

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Just now, Thegooorooo said:

No, COOP is not fine, Try again.

I disagree. Try harder.

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Just now, Balon_Greyjoy said:

I disagree. Try harder.

So you think 3 minute matches for coop is fine? Matches where the AI DD's all ram each other is fine? I can keep going, again. COOP is NOT fine. Its the red-headed stepchild of Warships. Your just trying to Troll at this point and failing hard.

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You're the one failing hard.

You can whine all you want, Lesta has much higher priorities than devoting a single-player FPS caliber AI to Co-op.

Keep crying, keep whining. Your QQ is not only pointless but endlessly entertaining.

Edited by Balon_Greyjoy
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