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TheGreatBlasto

Shouldn't Asashio's superduper deep water torps hit battlecruisers?

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Some of the recent giants like Alaska, Stalingrad, etc have hulls that go as deep as those of BBs and CVs.

The categorization is also confusing. For example, is the Graf Spee a BB which can be hit buy the Asahi or a cruiser?

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1 minute ago, TheGreatBlasto said:

Some of the recent giants like Alaska, Stalingrad, etc have hulls that go as deep as those of BBs and CVs.

The categorization is also confusing. For example, is the Graf Spee a BB which can be hit buy the Asahi or a cruiser?

graf spee is definitely a cruiser,her size and armor didn't make her a super or large cruiser.

alaska,stalingrad and the supercruisers though,yeah they could be hit,but WG won't make them a different class,super cruisers,large cruiser,battle cruisers.

subjective terms for  large cruisers with very large guns.

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No.

(This is a thoroughly subjective, perhaps even illogical, response, but my Krony really appreciates facing enemy Asa's just as they are, thank you!)

;)

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Battlecruisers can already be hit by Asashio torps.

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6 minutes ago, Patton5150 said:

Battlecruisers can already be hit by Asashio torps.

:Smile_great:  This, meaning Amagi, Hood, Prinz Eitel Friedrich, etc., which are listed as BBs and take up a BB slot in MM.  For whatever reason, WG decided that some ships will take CA/CL slots instead of BB slots, regardless of their tonnage displacement, gun size, or how deep their keels run.  It's why you see so many Stalingrads in tier X clan and ranked, and why the current tier VI clan season is overflowing with Graf Spees - people trying to sneak in as many BB caliber guns as possible using cruiser slots.  Honestly, I don't know why WG limits BBs to one per team in clan or ranked.  I say let people play what they want.  Since I play DDs most of the time, I'd love to go up against an all-BB team.  It would be hilarious.  Even tier IX, where you'd see an all-Missouri team.  As long as you know it's coming (and you know it would be), you can work around it.

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15 minutes ago, zubalkabir said:

:Smile_great:  Honestly, I don't know why WG limits BBs to one per team in clan or ranked.  I say let people play what they want.  

Most ranked games have 3 or more BBs.

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20 minutes ago, zubalkabir said:

:Smile_great:  This, meaning Amagi, Hood, Prinz Eitel Friedrich, etc., which are listed as BBs and take up a BB slot in MM.  For whatever reason, WG decided that some ships will take CA/CL slots instead of BB slots, regardless of their tonnage displacement, gun size, or how deep their keels run.  It's why you see so many Stalingrads in tier X clan and ranked, and why the current tier VI clan season is overflowing with Graf Spees - people trying to sneak in as many BB caliber guns as possible using cruiser slots.  Honestly, I don't know why WG limits BBs to one per team in clan or ranked.  I say let people play what they want.  Since I play DDs most of the time, I'd love to go up against an all-BB team.  It would be hilarious.  Even tier IX, where you'd see an all-Missouri team.  As long as you know it's coming (and you know it would be), you can work around it.

They setup the ship requirements so matches are "reasonably" fair and competitive.  If you pick all BBs and the other team picked all torp DDs....well...

 

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2 minutes ago, TheGreatBlasto said:

Are there two Ranked tourneys?   Last battle I played in yesterday had a Tirp, Biz, and NC on my team.

You can bring whatever you want to ranked, of the right tier, the game figures it out and sets up the match.

Clan battles has a set specific ship make up, which you and your clan must fulfill.
 

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7 minutes ago, TheGreatBlasto said:

Most ranked games have 3 or more BBs.

That's true.  I was getting ranked and clan mixed up.:Smile_hiding:

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From a balance standpoint, using the ship class makes it easier to tell, but I think it would be interesting to split Cruisers and Battlecruisers and perhaps offering Asashio a variant that goes for both BC and BB that does less damage.

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40 minutes ago, nina_blain_73 said:

and common sense

God knows you'll never find THAT here!

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1 hour ago, zubalkabir said:

:Smile_great:  This, meaning Amagi, Hood, Prinz Eitel Friedrich, etc., which are listed as BBs and take up a BB slot in MM.  For whatever reason, WG decided that some ships will take CA/CL slots instead of BB slots, regardless of their tonnage displacement, gun size, or how deep their keels run.  It's why you see so many Stalingrads in tier X clan and ranked, and why the current tier VI clan season is overflowing with Graf Spees - people trying to sneak in as many BB caliber guns as possible using cruiser slots.  Honestly, I don't know why WG limits BBs to one per team in clan or ranked.  I say let people play what they want.  Since I play DDs most of the time, I'd love to go up against an all-BB team.  It would be hilarious.  Even tier IX, where you'd see an all-Missouri team.  As long as you know it's coming (and you know it would be), you can work around it.

yeahhh your not working around a team of Missouri s...........

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2 hours ago, KilljoyCutter said:

No, they shouldn't. 

Never mind that the "supercruisers" aren't battlecruisers. 

 

 

 

Depends.  Siegfried as an O-Class battlecruiser, after all, Kron is a battlecruiser, and Alaska was initially thought of as one (though that was changed to large cruiser for congress to fund it).  At least some of them could well be argued to be battlecruisers.

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3 hours ago, TheGreatBlasto said:

Some of the recent giants like Alaska, Stalingrad, etc have hulls that go as deep as those of BBs and CVs.

The categorization is also confusing. For example, is the Graf Spee a BB which can be hit buy the Asahi or a cruiser?

As others have noted, the Graf Spee is a horrible example.  The Spee is 100% a heavy cruiser.  It was definitely on the heavy side for heavy cruisers when it was built, but by WW2 it was about the same size as other heavy cruisers.  (And of course, it was overgunned for its tonnage.)

 

As for the larger topic, this is the reality of WoWS being a game.  For the same of MM, ships are grouped into one of 4 categories, i.e. CV, BB, CR, or DD.  (Note that I use CR when referring to cruisers in general to avoid typing CA/CL, or even BC I suppose.)  And the problem that arises with WW2 era large cruisers as "battlecruisers" relates to the difference between WW1 battlecruisers and WW2 "battlecruisers".  In the WW1 era, BBs were smaller and closer in size to the cruisers of the era, leaving a relatively small gap in size.  But moving on to WW2, BBs started becoming ever larger, while cruisers only increased in size as a much slower rate with the result being that there was a considerable gap in tonnage between WW2 era cruisers and WW2 era BBs.  In the WW1 era, BCs were the same tonnage as BBs, since the design meta for BCs called for trading off armor and sometimes main guns (or main gun size) for additional speed (i.e. engines and boilers).  But WW1 BCs really were NOT intended to engage WW1 BBs.    Moving into the WW2 era, there's now this considerable gap in tonnage between BBs and cruisers.  And it's into this gap that the "large cruiser" model of battlecruiser existed.

WW2 battlecruisers had a limited intended role.  They were meant to either engage convoys, particularly the convoy's cruiser screen which their larger guns should defeat, or to engage enemy battlecruisers.  Like in WW1, WW2 era battlecruisers weren't meant to be in the battle line.  But at the same time, they were too large and costly to engage in most normal cruiser tasks.  (Heck, the Brits didn't build many CAs because they needed a lot of cruisers and decided that they could get the number of cruisers they needed by building mostly light cruisers.)

 

Enough with the history and back to the game.

The problem is that large cruisers aren't a good fit as BB type vessels for MM because a large cruiser simply lacks the ability to stand toe to toe with legit BBs of the same tiers.  And when the devs programmed the DWTs into the game, they clearly decided that it was easier to determine what DWTs could or couldn't hit by ship type.  I agree in theory that DWTs ought to be able to look at a ship's draft. But the problem with draft is that it can depend on the ship's load (i.e. how much ammo, fuel, and water) it carried.  Also, with ships that were never built, how do you really know what the proper draft would have been?  For the sake of simplicity, the devs just stuck with ship type for determining what DWTs could hit.

 

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1 hour ago, Morpheous said:

yeahhh your not working around a team of Missouri s...........

Why not...you can easily see them coming & most T9 torps outrange their radars.

At the end game 3 on 1 when they know where you are at & all have HE loaded might be a little difficult but a team of DDs from the start could torp soup them easily...radar doesn't spot torps.

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Funny having this discussion when you consider that a lot of the more advanced torpedoes in WW2 could be set to run at a certain depth, had magnetic influence and impact fuses and could thus be used in both modes, anyway.

 

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2 hours ago, KilljoyCutter said:

No, they shouldn't. 

Never mind that the "supercruisers" aren't battlecruisers. 

 

 

 

Alaska's draft is greater than several battleships: Fuso, New Mexico and, by a few inches, Nelson, to say nothing of some actual battlecruisers. 

Edited by Pugilistic

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21 minutes ago, Pugilistic said:

Alaska's draft is greater than several battleships: Fuso, New Mexico and, by a few inches, Nelson, to say nothing of some actual battlecruisers. 

Watches WG make "draft" into a balance parameter...

 

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Ship draft was a thing for Deepwater torps a long time ago but it was too confusing for the playerbase (that or the code was too spaghetti, one of the two) and they ultimately removed it before launching Pan-Asian DDs. Otherwise Asashio very well might be able to hit supercruisers today since it'd be working off a draft system and not an arbitrary class icon.

Ah well, what could have been.

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18 hours ago, ComradeTsushima said:

Ship draft was a thing for Deepwater torps a long time ago but it was too confusing for the playerbase (that or the code was too spaghetti, one of the two) and they ultimately removed it before launching Pan-Asian DDs. Otherwise Asashio very well might be able to hit supercruisers today since it'd be working off a draft system and not an arbitrary class icon.

Ah well, what could have been.

And this was very much a mistake on WG's part. It's even more ridiculous now that submarines are being added and thus depth is going to become a concrete part of the game.

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