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Coyote_ar

Can we have AA back?

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So ... since i started playing in closed Beta, American BB trait was good concealment and good AA. That was their main trait, their reason to be if you will.

Now, with the 20% reduction to concealment for BBs ... the american BBs suffered the most since they actually used that as a main game characteristic. And with the useless AA they now have ... well there is not much reason to play them aside from basic grinding. Once you reach Montana ... almost every other BB out there is better, hardly a first ... or a second ... or a third pick.

Now, given the proliferation of CVs, that are a PITA ... why dont we get AA back on american BBs? A slight boost on basic AA numbers, and a defensive AA consumable.

Ships need a trait that give them a reason to play that ship, and not another one. All other T10 BBs have it ... Montana had it and it was taken away. Its not even a matter of power creep with new ships, but removing its trait. To this day even with power creep, Yamato is still a good ship. But Montana was and it was taken away. Its not like having a BB with Def AA is a new thing.

Just my 2 cents.

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22 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Get it back when we get RTS CVs and old RTS CV Strike Power back.

The good old time where taking out Tirpitz was either a normal game or a back to port by dev strike one.

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30 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Get it back when we get RTS CVs and old RTS CV Strike Power back.

Right, CVs cant kill ships now ... there is no single ship out there, that if a CV wants it dead it cant kill. I guess not being able to nuke a single kind of BB in the game will really hurt your stats. :cap_happy:

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42 minutes ago, Coyote_ar said:

Right, CVs cant kill ships now ... there is no single ship out there, that if a CV wants it dead it cant kill. I guess not being able to nuke a single kind of BB in the game will really hurt your stats. :cap_happy:

Exactly.

A difference which makes no difference, is no difference.

The rework always was, and still is, completely pointless.

All WG has managed to do, in the end, is increase the number of players using a mechanic that often hacks other players off.

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1 hour ago, Coyote_ar said:

Right, CVs cant kill ships now ... there is no single ship out there, that if a CV wants it dead it cant kill. I guess not being able to nuke a single kind of BB in the game will really hurt your stats. :cap_happy:

Ships get damaged!

WHO KNEW!

:Smile_ohmy:

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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Powerful AA was implemented as a counter to RTS CVs who had incredible strike power. CVs in their current iteration do not have strike power. No CV in the game can kill a ship in a single drop, they need time to make multiple drops and deal damage. The result of that is in order for CVs to have any reason to exist, anti-air fire has to remain somewhere around where it is. Effective, but not over powered. 

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4 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Ships get damaged!

WHO KNEW!

:Smile_ohmy:

No, damaged no. Killed.
Its supposed to be a rock paper scissors game. CV has no weakness, and everything is a target. Thats broken.

If no matter what is the target, you can kill it. Then its not balanced. You just dont want to be challenged like every other class is. If you cant stop a CV with player skill or a ship feature, then that is an uneven playing field. 

But thats not even the point, the point is that US BBs did have AA as a main feature. Lets say they dont want to give it back ... they need a reason to be. Currently they dont have it.

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4 hours ago, DrMacintosh said:

Powerful AA was implemented as a counter to RTS CVs who had incredible strike power. CVs in their current iteration do not have strike power. No CV in the game can kill a ship in a single drop, they need time to make multiple drops and deal damage. The result of that is in order for CVs to have any reason to exist, anti-air fire has to remain somewhere around where it is. Effective, but not over powered. 

Thats the whole point of giving them Def AA, and not doing it with god like AA like they had. There is still a limited count of consumables, and a reuse time.

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5 hours ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Exactly.

A difference which makes no difference, is no difference.

The rework always was, and still is, completely pointless.

All WG has managed to do, in the end, is increase the number of players using a mechanic that often hacks other players off.

Yes ... the CV rework broke something that wasnt broken. Even if CVs had really good striking power, you could stop them. Ships with good AA were able to provide cover for their team by positioning correctly. Skill was involved in stoping them. And managing multiple attack squadrons so that they could nuke a ship, required even bigger skills from the CV captain. That's why not everyone was good at it (i know i wasnt). There was skill involved in both defense and offense, neither was assured by ship class.

But as said before ... thats not the point. The point is if american BBs should either get back one of their defining features, or if thats not the case get another one to take its place. Right now they dont have one, for every single thing a BB does, there is a better T10 BB out there. Its not even a good "jack of all trades" ship.

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17 hours ago, Coyote_ar said:

No, damaged no. Killed.
Its supposed to be a rock paper scissors game. CV has no weakness, and everything is a target. Thats broken.

If no matter what is the target, you can kill it. Then its not balanced. You just dont want to be challenged like every other class is. If you cant stop a CV with player skill or a ship feature, then that is an uneven playing field. 

But thats not even the point, the point is that US BBs did have AA as a main feature. Lets say they dont want to give it back ... they need a reason to be. Currently they dont have it.

This game has never been RPS.

 

Case in point:  People say Cruisers are supposed to counter Destroyers. 

What's a 32.5kt Pensacola with no Radar going to do against a 39kt+ Fubuki from the same tier, with 6.1km concealment menacing his teammates with 10km torpedoes?

Not a d*mn thing.  Matter of fact, the DD just simply has to keep that Pensacola spotted for his teammates.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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45 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

This game has never been RPS.

 

Case in point:  People say Cruisers are supposed to counter Destroyers. 

What's a 32.5kt Pensacola with no Radar going to do against a 39kt+ Fubuki from the same tier, with 6.1km concealment menacing his teammates with 10km torpedoes?

Not a d*mn thing.  Matter of fact, the DD just simply has to keep that Pensacola spotted for his teammates.

Pensacola has hydro, for starters thats a quite good counter to the DDs main armament. Secondly, guns are precise and pack a punch, so when the DD gets spotted it gets killed. And Pensacola is able to dodge both inbound fire from enemy team and torpedos from the DD. And the DD relies completely on being undetected to remain alive, if he gets spotted he is easy prey.

Both clases have advantages and disadvantages doing their role, and skill is involved in succeeding or failing at it. Even more so with teamplay involved.

That is balanced gameplay.

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13 minutes ago, Coyote_ar said:

Pensacola has hydro, for starters thats a quite good counter to the DDs main armament. Secondly, guns are precise and pack a punch, so when the DD gets spotted it gets killed. And Pensacola is able to dodge both inbound fire from enemy team and torpedos from the DD. And the DD relies completely on being undetected to remain alive, if he gets spotted he is easy prey.

Both clases have advantages and disadvantages doing their role, and skill is involved in succeeding or failing at it. Even more so with teamplay involved.

That is balanced gameplay.

LOL, none of that matters, because you know why?

 

The Fubuki doesn't have to do anything but keep the Pensacola lit while Stealth Torping the Pensacola's teammates.  The other surface ships will wipe out that Pensacola.

He doesn't even need to fire any shell, torpedoes at the Pensacola.

 

Scissors beating Rock.

And Scissors didn't even have to lift a finger.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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Sure dude, thats why the whole community except for Fubuki captains complain about how Fubukis are so unbalanced...

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6 minutes ago, Coyote_ar said:

Sure dude, thats why the whole community except for Fubuki captains complain about how Fubukis are so unbalanced...

You don't like it but that's the simple game truth.

Have you EVER played a Stealth Torpedo DD to keep targets lit and let others kill it, despite that target being quite capable of killing you given the chance?

 

A Stealth Torpedo DD can keep that Cruiser (that's supposed to hard counter the DD) spotted.  You talked about Pensacola Hydro making it harder for the DD, and precise gunfire would counter Fubuki, but the truth is she can't do it on her own despite, "Cruisers kill Destroyers."

 

The Stealth Torpedo DD can just fulfill it's job, spot the target, and let others blast it.  Matter of fact, that's the preferred M.O. for a bunch of DDs out there.

 

And I repeat what I said earlier:  Scissors beating Rock.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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9 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

You don't like it but that's the simple game truth.

Have you EVER played a Stealth Torpedo DD to keep targets lit and let others kill it, despite that target being quite capable of killing you given the chance?

 

A Stealth Torpedo DD can keep that Cruiser (that's supposed to hard counter the DD) spotted.  You talked about Pensacola Hydro making it harder for the DD, and precise gunfire would counter Fubuki, but the truth is she can't do it on her own despite, "Cruisers kill Destroyers."

 

The Stealth Torpedo DD can just fulfill it's job, spot the target, and let others blast it.  Matter of fact, that's the preferred M.O. for a bunch of DDs out there.

 

And I repeat what I said earlier:  Scissors beating Rock.

The Pensacola isn't supposed to be a hard counter to torpedo boats. Most cruisers aren't really counters to torpedo boats, rather the counters to torpedo boats are other destroyers killing them or positioning denying them good angles on battleships. Pensacola against Fubuki is a poor fight for both sides, since neither of them can easily kill the other (if the Fubuki spots the Pensacola for its team that isn't the Fubuki countering the Pensacola, that's another ship countering the Pensacola - if you try to perma spot my Pensacola for a Molotov I can just laugh at you and kill the Molotov).

The Pensacola in turn counters other cruisers and battleships without 25 mm overmatch.

Battleship > cruiser > destroyer > battleship hasn't been the goal since the alpha test, the balance team was actually competent back then and realized it didn't work after doing the first test.

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AA indeed does need to be buffed, just look at Atlanta/Flints, Texas, AA Spec Des Moines, And Various others. when AA Range was nerfed across the board they could have increased damage to counter. besides AA mounts get knocked out as Matches go on and CV's No longer have a limited amount of planes like before. they could tie AA together with secondary's in range modules and captain skills. AA Ships need Feel like they make a difference in a match as it is a t8 CV can kill a Des Moines from full health and only lose 1-3 planes it has happened to me more times than I want to count.   

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Here's an idea. In WWII destroyers such as Fletcher, Sumner, and Gearing class destroyers had radar. They were often assigned picket duty to pick up kamikaze attacks.

Maybe radar + AA = more effective, it tightens the pattern of AA fire. This allows more team work. 

By the way it took 386 aircraft to sink the Yamato. Taking 10 torpedo hits and 7 bomb hits. 

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On 8/16/2020 at 2:26 PM, WernerHerzdog said:

The Pensacola isn't supposed to be a hard counter to torpedo boats. Most cruisers aren't really counters to torpedo boats, rather the counters to torpedo boats are other destroyers killing them or positioning denying them good angles on battleships. Pensacola against Fubuki is a poor fight for both sides, since neither of them can easily kill the other (if the Fubuki spots the Pensacola for its team that isn't the Fubuki countering the Pensacola, that's another ship countering the Pensacola - if you try to perma spot my Pensacola for a Molotov I can just laugh at you and kill the Molotov).

The Pensacola in turn counters other cruisers and battleships without 25 mm overmatch.

Battleship > cruiser > destroyer > battleship hasn't been the goal since the alpha test, the balance team was actually competent back then and realized it didn't work after doing the first test.

The OP literally posts that CA Pensacola is a counter for DDs.  She isn't.  LOL he even posts that Hydro will counter, that won't.  She needs to be forward deployed for that hydro to actually be useful for early warning, and that means being a conveniently closer target.  Pensacola never lasted long being a convenient target.  Never when she was in Tier VII, nor did that ever change with the US Cruiser split moving her to Tier VI.

 

The DD spotting the Cruiser to let others blast it to hell and back *IS* a hard counter.  There is nothing the Cruiser can do about it other than turn tail, run, and WASD because everyone is trying to squish her.

All while the DD didn't even have to fire a shell, nor launch any torpedoes.

I don't know about you, but that's one helluva counter.

Maybe if the Cruiser had Radar we'd have a chance to make the DD player sh*t his pants, but a normal Cruiser, nope.

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On 8/15/2020 at 1:14 PM, Coyote_ar said:

So ... since i started playing in closed Beta, American BB trait was good concealment and good AA. That was their main trait, their reason to be if you will.

Now, with the 20% reduction to concealment for BBs ... the american BBs suffered the most since they actually used that as a main game characteristic. And with the useless AA they now have ... well there is not much reason to play them aside from basic grinding. Once you reach Montana ... almost every other BB out there is better, hardly a first ... or a second ... or a third pick.

Now, given the proliferation of CVs, that are a PITA ... why dont we get AA back on american BBs? A slight boost on basic AA numbers, and a defensive AA consumable.

Ships need a trait that give them a reason to play that ship, and not another one. All other T10 BBs have it ... Montana had it and it was taken away. Its not even a matter of power creep with new ships, but removing its trait. To this day even with power creep, Yamato is still a good ship. But Montana was and it was taken away. Its not like having a BB with Def AA is a new thing.

Just my 2 cents.

Hey

It will NEVER happen; Wargaming spent too much time and effort on the CV rework.  Everyone lost 10% concealment Nerf, lost 20% AA range buff due to the AFT skill, lost manual fire AA skill, and you lost the ability to shoot attacking airplanes since now they shoot the whole squadron, and you lost the effectiveness of the AA gun upgrade which is now worthless, and of course there is DFAA which is not worth taking these days.  Just more game manipulation by Wargaming to save the CV Rework at everyone else's expense.  BB's also took a Nerf when they did away with AP damage on DD's by BB's.  Look at what happened to Atlanta, Flint, and even most AA cruisers, certainly not what they used to be.  And top of all that, we never used to have those asinine rocket planes in the times before 8.0 where they can chunk everyone for 4-6, 000 damage, just to turn around and do it pass after pass.    Oh, but don't worry, Wargaming Nerf'd the AA on Kremlin.  LOL

 

Pete

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13 hours ago, CorvetteKaptain67 said:

Here's an idea. In WWII destroyers such as Fletcher, Sumner, and Gearing class destroyers had radar. They were often assigned picket duty to pick up kamikaze attacks.

Maybe radar + AA = more effective, it tightens the pattern of AA fire. This allows more team work. 

By the way it took 386 aircraft to sink the Yamato. Taking 10 torpedo hits and 7 bomb hits. 

Hey

Just what is needed, more radar.  They should have kept radar at T9 and above only.  Most DD's don't have good enough AA as it is.   Now your seeing Wargaming NERFing the radar of the Pan-European DD's because it's too powerful against their beloved carriers.  Then there is the ramped up and down of AA guns effectiveness.  More non-sense balancing that makes the game more and more unbalanced the longer it goes.

I wonder how long before sells you gold ammo that will actually do more damage to airplanes.  Cha-ching!

 

Pete 

Edited by sasquatch_research

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On 8/15/2020 at 3:22 PM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Get it back when we get RTS CVs and old RTS CV Strike Power back.

No. Old RTS was way too strong. I would love to see the entire old cv/aa design come back, but with a little bit of a nerf to the actual damage that cv planes did. Not a lot, but just enough that they're not dev striking ships with unavoidable drops. 

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Imagine my sadness returning to AA spec’d USN BB Captains...sure would be more useful to have a survivability build right about now.

Watching CV wipe out ships at their leisure and/or provide vision for their team to do the same (in line with comments above re: DD), I giggle a little bit at the “oh, it’s cool because they cannot cross drop anymore” idea.  I had a match yesterday where a same tier CV shat all over a Cleveland, nothing the Cleveland could do about it. It was sad and comical enough that I remarked on it chat...she went from being a pretty effective AA ship to basically free exp.  It’s balanced though, because it took 2 mins to kill the Cleve! (lol) 

Funnily, as I play low tier CV to get a better feel for the cancer class, the BB have significantly better AA in general.

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Cv concealment is way off. They are floating hotels that should be seen way out.

Edited by Cohowarren
spelling.

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