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warheart1992

Asymmetric Battle Discussion Thread.

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So, it's been on devblog for a while, but Asymmetric Battles were announced today to be part of 0.9.8. For anyone that doesn't know what is going on, from https://worldofwarships.com/en/news/general-news/bulletin-098/

Quote

 

Historically, encounters at sea have typically involved opposing sides with an unequal number of ships on each side. The new battle type offers a new gameplay experience in near-real naval combat conditions.

In an Asymmetric Battle, a team of four to six Tier VII–VIII ships will confront a team of eight to twelve ships of Tiers V–VI. Helming Tier VII–VIII ships in an Asymmetric Battle will require a new temporary resource called Battle Tokens.

Battle Tokens can be obtained by participating in Asymmetric Battles. The number of Tokens you get from each battle depends on the tier of ship you helm—the lower the tier, the more Tokens you can get.

This way, you'll be able to participate in an Asymmetric Battle with lower and higher-tier ships for a more immersive experience in the new battle type.

 

Personally, I am pretty interested in the concept and think it could be fun. That said, there are a few issues that I feel will become apparent.

  1. Bow/Extremity armour; most tier VIII BBs have 32mm bow and sterns, meaning they will be untouchable frontally by AP from the lower tiers. This could lead to numerous tier VIII BBs just picking a spot and bowtanking with nigh impunity.  This can also extent to CAs with 27mm extremities which are 380mm proof.
  2. Concealment Upgrade;' simply put, the concealment bonus from this could well affect vision control, a very important part of the game. Considering that many tier VIII DDs get sub 6km concealment this could be a problem. That said, the numerical advantage of the lower tiers could counterbalance that.
  3. CVs; a CV guaranteed to be top tier every single battle could affect balance quite a bit, especially considering the state of AA. There's no talk if there will be class balance, so a tier VIII CV facing one or two tier VIs.

All in all, I hope most issues will be handled, so we get a nice and fun mode, something different from same old Randoms/Ranked. Moreover I believe Asymmetric Battles could save low tiers, make them more interesting while avoiding the whole bot issue. I would like to see how 12 tier IIIs would fare againt 4-6 tier Vs. That could give some value to low tier premiums as well, which are neglected for quite some time.

Anyway, that's my view on the subject. wondering what others think about this.

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There are people that whine constantly for something new and different.  Well, here you go.

 

Put up or shut up.

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I did not fine the OP whining, in fact it was interesting to read his thoughts on the mode. He pointed out what might be the potential problems and was wondering how they will be handled. Some of which I'm wondering about myself.

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Basically sounds like lower tier ships will have to spam HE.

There's such a huge power leap to tier 8 with the modules.

They should have done T5 VS 7 instead of 6 VS 8. 

Should be interesting to see what the forums light up with.

 

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27 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

So, it's been on devblog for a while, but Asymmetric Battles were announced today to be part of 0.9.8. For anyone that doesn't know what is going on, from https://worldofwarships.com/en/news/general-news/bulletin-098/

Personally, I am pretty interested in the concept and think it could be fun. That said, there are a few issues that I feel will become apparent.

  1. Bow/Extremity armour; most tier VIII BBs have 32mm bow and sterns, meaning they will be untouchable frontally by AP from the lower tiers. This could lead to numerous tier VIII BBs just picking a spot and bowtanking with nigh impunity.  This can also extent to CAs with 27mm extremities which are 380mm proof.
  2. Concealment Upgrade;' simply put, the concealment bonus from this could well affect vision control, a very important part of the game. Considering that many tier VIII DDs get sub 6km concealment this could be a problem. That said, the numerical advantage of the lower tiers could counterbalance that.
  3. CVs; a CV guaranteed to be top tier every single battle could affect balance quite a bit, especially considering the state of AA. There's no talk if there will be class balance, so a tier VIII CV facing one or two tier VIs.

All in all, I hope most issues will be handled, so we get a nice and fun mode, something different from same old Randoms/Ranked. Moreover I believe Asymmetric Battles could save low tiers, make them more interesting while avoiding the whole bot issue. I would like to see how 12 tier IIIs would fare againt 4-6 tier Vs. That could give some value to low tier premiums as well, which are neglected for quite some time.

Anyway, that's my view on the subject. wondering what others think about this.

I see this mostly being a wipe fest for the V-VI ships.  T6s fair poorly vs T8s already, T5s will be nothing but cannon fodder.   CVs, Concealment, shear HP pool difference will be factors. The whole earn more tokens at lower tiers is a blatant ploy force the player base back into mid tiers ships which many have just abandoned.  

While I would like this to be FUN,  I have serious reservations.  I will try it and see, but I am not expecting much. 

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Great Idea this will tilt the game in a small way toward realism. Most WW2 battles were unequal ships fighting each other and trying to survive. Any ship can be deadly with a good Captain.....

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Tier VIII BBs will only be able to bow-tank if the other team lets them. The lower tier team will have twice as many ships, so if they play smart they should be able to easily flank the higher tier team if they play too defensively.

I’m going to be playing a lot of ARP Kongo (all four of them). Kongo was the speed and range to uptier very well.

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Wonder if the Battle Tokens. Will have any value other than  entering the battle in the high tear ships?

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I don't think there has been any details yet, but why wouldn't you just play BBs on the low tiers team.  I suppose there could be some kind of point distribution system that awards more or less tokens for playing different ship types.  I just don't see this game mode doing well.  My prediction is a ton of steamrolls, and super passive play from the lower tier side, even when the idea is to play aggressively to overwhelm the outnumbered team.  No one is going to want to be the Omaha that gets one shot sunk back to port a minuted into the match.

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This sounds like a lot of fun to me.  Anyone who has a favorite mid tier ship they have gotten really good with might just like this challenge.  

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1 hour ago, warheart1992 said:

So, it's been on devblog for a while, but Asymmetric Battles were announced today to be part of 0.9.8. For anyone that doesn't know what is going on, from https://worldofwarships.com/en/news/general-news/bulletin-098/

Personally, I am pretty interested in the concept and think it could be fun. That said, there are a few issues that I feel will become apparent.

  1. Bow/Extremity armour; most tier VIII BBs have 32mm bow and sterns, meaning they will be untouchable frontally by AP from the lower tiers. This could lead to numerous tier VIII BBs just picking a spot and bowtanking with nigh impunity.  This can also extent to CAs with 27mm extremities which are 380mm proof.
  2. Concealment Upgrade;' simply put, the concealment bonus from this could well affect vision control, a very important part of the game. Considering that many tier VIII DDs get sub 6km concealment this could be a problem. That said, the numerical advantage of the lower tiers could counterbalance that.
  3. CVs; a CV guaranteed to be top tier every single battle could affect balance quite a bit, especially considering the state of AA. There's no talk if there will be class balance, so a tier VIII CV facing one or two tier VIs.

All in all, I hope most issues will be handled, so we get a nice and fun mode, something different from same old Randoms/Ranked. Moreover I believe Asymmetric Battles could save low tiers, make them more interesting while avoiding the whole bot issue. I would like to see how 12 tier IIIs would fare againt 4-6 tier Vs. That could give some value to low tier premiums as well, which are neglected for quite some time.

Anyway, that's my view on the subject. wondering what others think about this.

Ha......  Where to start.  Asymmetric is a significant difference between "ordered" and "Structured" systems that interact outside of established conventions of that system....  Us versus Them at a disparity of..............'x'.....

Or, in reality, non-linear battles.  Many of us have recommended our host explore this concept.....  A good suggestion was a North Atlantic convoy PVP with bot convoys ships..... 

In a great many cases, this proposed concept won't translate into "meaningful" gameplay.......  Why?  Because "skill levels" gets inside of the concept and degrades the effects.........  Take an unbalanced, low skilled heavier force against a highly organized and very well skilled lesser force........will you have a meaningful battle?   No.  All we will get are stomps that will accelerate because of disproportional skill densities....  Just like randoms but accelerated because of the non-linear/non-symetric distribution of ships......  And, how would we accommodate meta divisions?  A meta division in a position of power and technology will eradicate the lessor force almost all of the time.   Heck, meta/OP ships make this concept even worse..........because they are not proportionally aligned to begin with and carry that "combat power differential" with them !  Ouch. 

Success will be in the details.  Or, lack of them.   Failure will be in that we don't identify "skill;" nor, is it used in our MM.   Asymmetric infers disproportional and non-linear actions.........how can that be if one side is all Vets and the other is new players in lower tier ships.....  This could become a "seal clubbing"  mode @Hapa_Fodder.........  What protects that from happening if we always see Stomps in Randoms???  How would this mode "balance skill?"  If it can't, the results will be the same as randoms and potentially, a lot worse.

Edited by Asym_KS

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 I think this one is going to be a lot of fun. And remember this is only a test. It doesn't count towards anything. So we should have fun. Really looking forward to it.

 

Now if only they would put some effort into making new Maps...

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Wait, you’re going to let me drive my Zeppelin vs a guaranteed team of tier 5-6s? That probably isn’t a great idea.
 

I like the idea, and think ships like the Kamikaze will be sneaky good in this mode. But I also think the balancing will be extra screwy.

Edited by Telastyn

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This could easily backfire on the team with tier 8s where you may have one or two players on that team either be AFK, disconnected, passive, or just flat out go full yolo potato and suddenly that team is down by 17%-25%

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For lower tier ships

I am thinking, for T6 ships to have a chance at winning at all, they will have to swarm the T8 ships in a blob, before the T8s can setup a effective and defensive crossfire position.

I sure hope WG doesn't split spawns for the T6/7 ships. Despite what WG may think, this makes it easier for the T8s to cut into one group before the other group can link up, especially because a lot of T6 BBs are slow.

Oh and one more thing. I think WG overestimates the player skill and coordination on the larger team. The rule is, the larger the team, the more disorganized it is likely to become and thus useless. This means that having 2x the opposition is not enough. I would suggest bringing it up to 2.4~2.5x for a fair fighting chance. This would mean 6 vs 15 or 8 vs 20.

 

For higher tier ships

I think the key would be to bring a BB that won't overpenetrate flimsy T6 armor. A nice bonus would be bringing it with secondary spec, as secondaries are most effective against lower tier ships.

But really, I don't think you can go wrong with any choice... except Roma. Yeah, don't bring that.

Edited by MrDeaf

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Looks like fun, something fresh to play. I'll be happy to try it.

The whole token thingy doesn't make much sense to me unless they are testing the concept for Sub or CV gameplay, or something on that line.

I'll be happy to play the lower tiers, no need to bribe me with tokens. Waiting time in queue should be enough to self regulate the mode... Unless my faith in humanity is vain and munchkins rule the waves.

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I’m looking forward to seeing the match ups of ships which don’t ordinarily see each other in battle. Pity that Mikasa or Dreadnought aren’t invited to the party :Smile_teethhappy:

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I like the idea and to me it reminds me of the Salem Witch and Phantom Fortress events years ago (though they could be a big buggy at the time). I would like to see it added at some point as a game mode mixed in with Randoms like Encounter mode. If they could do it where a player can opt out that would be best as not everyone may like it.  I think also Bastion needs to be revisited and tweaked and mixed in too.

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11 hours ago, Taichunger said:

 I think this one is going to be a lot of fun. And remember this is only a test. It doesn't count towards anything. So we should have fun. Really looking forward to it.

 

Now if only they would put some effort into making new Maps...

Map design years ago has gone to the sh*tters.  Remember what happened to Islands of Ice?

 

On 1/30/2020 at 1:22 AM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Islands of Ice encompasses what's gone wrong with High Tier Maps.  We went from stuff like this in 2015:

EdgfzOm.jpg

59dd5fbfc16a7_IslandsofIce.jpg.700d052f68943d9a1ee089996d1fc9f0.jpg

 

Then into this mess:

old.jpg.8eeabcf10a7a4abd410195fc32b07f57.jpg

And finally into this garbage:

300px-Ice_Islands.png

 

But it doesn't end there.

300px-Okinawa.png

300px-Mountain_Range.png

 

High Tier has magnificent ships but the maps are outright, pure garbage.  High Tier maps only emphasize one thing only:  Long range combat.  You want to know why a bunch of German BB players dislike high tier?  Because those f--k trash maps rarely give a chance for such close-in play.  High Tier maps are defined by lots and lots and lots of wide open fields of fire as far as you can see.  Of course High Tier combat emphasizes only long range battles because that's all that realistically happens 90% of the time with this kind of map design.

Still, I think it would be funny to see Massachusetts wade into a bunch of lowbie Tier V ships.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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5 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Map design years ago has gone to the sh*tters.  Remember what happened to Islands of Ice?

 

 

 

Damn, I really miss the old Islands of Ice map, so many good memories. The close clutter of islands made for so much fun setting up ambushes, from DDs all the way up to BBs. I remember a handful of times when I was in close-in duels with another ship, one-on-one slug-fests darting in between all those islands. I really wish the devs bring back the old Islands of Ice map, and make more future maps in a similar style.

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23 minutes ago, sulghunter331 said:

Damn, I really miss the old Islands of Ice map, so many good memories. The close clutter of islands made for so much fun setting up ambushes, from DDs all the way up to BBs. I remember a handful of times when I was in close-in duels with another ship, one-on-one slug-fests darting in between all those islands. I really wish the devs bring back the old Islands of Ice map, and make more future maps in a similar style.

The fun thing with old the old Islands of Ice maps was that it had locations to afford a lot of different playstyles.

There was ample parts of the map for long range combat.

There was also plenty enough areas to fight in close quarters with disrupted lines of sight.  Those islands in the southeast corner of the map had to be contested, or at the very least sealed off, otherwise red ships would use that part of the map to infiltrate into your flanks and rear of the team.

 

At the time, the only full ship lines we had were USN & IJN ships.  There weren't even any German BBs, Cruisers, RU Cruisers, at the time.  I think with the vast array of different ships we have now, Islands of Ice would be pretty wild.

 

I came aboard in Open Beta and I remember getting schooled harshly on this map.  It taught me a lot of things though.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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