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murder_0ne

Ship effectiveness: paper stats vs. actual application

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For a while now I think that players focus too much ship's theoretical maximum stats and not on the practical use/application thereof. I'd like to start a discussion around the idea of what looks good on paper doesn't necessarily translate to great in-game performance and vice versa.

An example:

Lately I've been playing T5 BBs because T5 simplifies things to a large degree and ship's strengths and weaknesses really stand out as there is less opportunity for players to shore up ship weaknesses with modules. I've been playing the T5 Pyotr Velikiy and comparing it to the T5 Kongo. Superficially the ships appear nearly identical but the PV is a much stronger ship in my opinion compared to the Kongo once you look at the details and how it applies to in game performance.

Guns: The PV and Kongo appear to have very similar guns and dispersion with the Kongo having an edge with DPS and sigma and the PV a little better alpha. The PV has much shorter range than the Kongo but it has better turret traverse. In actual application I find myself shooting well inside the maximum range of the PV's guns (16km) even when using the Kongo as the PV's AP velocity is higher than the Kongo's and when shooting at maximum range with the Kongo the flight time is so great that I end up missing 90% of the volleys due to the target dodging the shells. In comparison I tend to land 90% of my volleys with the PV due to the reduced flight time of the faster shells. On paper the dispersion and sigma favor the Kongo but I seem to get more consistency out of the PV in game.

Armor and the rest: the Kongo has slightly higher top speed but rarely am I spending time at maximum speed in the game where this is an advantage. The PV accelerates better and I think it has higher average speed than the Kongo does. Additionally, while the PV has a larger turning circle it has a much faster rudder which allows you to employ your rear guns and then quickly turn the ship to reduce your broadside exposure. The armor scheme of the PV is superior in every way to the Kongo's even though it has slightly less total HP. In real world application I end up bouncing more shots and taking less overall damage in the PV than the Kongo.

If you look at the PV vs all the other T5 BBs you'll see that it's not the best in any one category but it's usually top two or three in every category. This well-rounded feature set is what makes it such an effective ship in my opinion.

In addition to the above I think that you can have a pretty well rounded ship in most aspects and have a key feature really cripple its overall effectiveness. Whether that's dispersion, gun angles, turret speed, armor scheme etc.

Budweiser made up a word; "drinkability"; to describe its beer. Not going to debate the quality of Budweiser beer, but I think we should use the term "usability" to describe a ship's capability in a holistic sense when applying it in-game vs. just comparing raw stats between one ship and another.

That said, what ships do you think are the most usable in their class/tier?

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So you want to compare a real world battle cruiser with a paper battleship.

 

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We need a word to describe PV being brain dead easy to use?? Its no surprise to anyone who pays attention that Kongo has been power crept into near irrelevancy and PV makes window licking a viable tactic.

 

Before anyone jumps on a soapbox to defend Kongo... I don't care. If you like the ship, fine. My T5 club bag is mainly Texas and Podviosky, neither of which are reknowned for being the best ships in tier. Somehow I get by with both.

 

Edited by Ares1967

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Seems to me that we have a set of stats that demonstrates ship effectiveness, and in the case of Kongo and Peter V., they mesh pretty well with your experience.  On the NA server:

Kongo:  WR = 50.41%;  Average Damage = 34,195

Peter V:  WR = 51.64%;  Average Damage = 42,570

Other stats, like average kills and K/D ratio, seem to track the same way. 

Then there's the ARP Kongo, which looks like it beats the PV by quite a stretch.  I don't know beans about these or any other BBs, but I take it the ARP Kongo and her plain vanilla counterpart must differ in more than just a cutesy cammo.

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15 hours ago, murder_0ne said:

For a while now I think that players focus too much ship's theoretical maximum stats and not on the practical use/application thereof. I'd like to start a discussion around the idea of what looks good on paper doesn't necessarily translate to great in-game performance and vice versa.

An example:

Lately I've been playing T5 BBs because T5 simplifies things to a large degree and ship's strengths and weaknesses really stand out as there is less opportunity for players to shore up ship weaknesses with modules. I've been playing the T5 Pyotr Velikiy and comparing it to the T5 Kongo. Superficially the ships appear nearly identical but the PV is a much stronger ship in my opinion compared to the Kongo once you look at the details and how it applies to in game performance.

Guns: The PV and Kongo appear to have very similar guns and dispersion with the Kongo having an edge with DPS and sigma and the PV a little better alpha. The PV has much shorter range than the Kongo but it has better turret traverse. In actual application I find myself shooting well inside the maximum range of the PV's guns (16km) even when using the Kongo as the PV's AP velocity is higher than the Kongo's and when shooting at maximum range with the Kongo the flight time is so great that I end up missing 90% of the volleys due to the target dodging the shells. In comparison I tend to land 90% of my volleys with the PV due to the reduced flight time of the faster shells. On paper the dispersion and sigma favor the Kongo but I seem to get more consistency out of the PV in game.

Armor and the rest: the Kongo has slightly higher top speed but rarely am I spending time at maximum speed in the game where this is an advantage. The PV accelerates better and I think it has higher average speed than the Kongo does. Additionally, while the PV has a larger turning circle it has a much faster rudder which allows you to employ your rear guns and then quickly turn the ship to reduce your broadside exposure. The armor scheme of the PV is superior in every way to the Kongo's even though it has slightly less total HP. In real world application I end up bouncing more shots and taking less overall damage in the PV than the Kongo.

If you look at the PV vs all the other T5 BBs you'll see that it's not the best in any one category but it's usually top two or three in every category. This well-rounded feature set is what makes it such an effective ship in my opinion.

The problem with this reasoning is that, while paper stats are objective, what you mention above is subjective.

For example, I get a fair bit of work done with Kongo and spotter plane before the ships really clash. Yes, ships can dodge, but in my experience, with Kongo's dispersion at 24km, dodging doesn't help, as the target isn't going to be dodging enough to escape the dispersion area, and has the same chance of getting hit whether they dodge or not.

Speed? I use it as often as possible, why would you play a ship and not use the one overwhelming advantage it has over its contemporaries? That's like playing a KGV and using solely AP. That speed allows me to catch up to kiting BBs, or control the range when kiting myself. It also allows me to get to the next fire more quickly upon putting out the present one. As well, it allows me to support DDs better, because at T5, most of them try to fast cap, and I can eat the opposing supporting CL for breakfast. And there is no "average speed". There is maximum speed, and 1/4 fractions. Kongo has less speed advantage at lower throttle positions, but is always faster. Of course, barring accidental island interactions, it's rare for me to run a BB at any less than full throttle.

I didn't realise that PV had a bigger turning circle, but that would make sense, as I outbrawled one yesterday in Kongo, and was able to (combined with higher speed) outturn his turrets.

As far as your "drinkability" theory, it does have merit, but merely means that if PV were the most "drinkable", it means that it's the easiest to play, and has no special qualities that can be used to advantage. An "entry level" BB, if you will.

Budweiser is what I keep around for company, because anybody (even girls lol) can drink it. I save the stouts and porters for myself, and others who can appreciate it.

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3 hours ago, Midshipman_Hornblower said:

Then there's the ARP Kongo, which looks like it beats the PV by quite a stretch.  I don't know beans about these or any other BBs, but I take it the ARP Kongo and her plain vanilla counterpart must differ in more than just a cutesy cammo.

There are some very minor differences, but mostly, it's who plays them. Veteran players typically have the whole collection, and will rotate an IJN captain through all of them, meaning they play it a lot.

If you look at my stats, you'll see I do better in ARP Kongo than regular Kongo, but that's because most of my regular Kongo games are from years ago, when I first ground the line. 

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