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DeadIyArT

vermont what version of the tillman design is that?

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Been looking but cant seem to find it. 4x3 357mm gun?  @Hapa_Fodder

 

 

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Check the bar near the wargaming studio, napkins specifically. 

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8 minutes ago, DeadIyArT said:

Been looking but cant seem to find it. 3x4 357mm gun?

Not an expert on this, but as far as I can tell, neither.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_battleship

Tillman IV-1 called for 457mm x13 and Tillman IV-2 called for x15.

 

Someone found this for Tillman IV-2

1927c216cb.png

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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30 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Not an expert on this, but as far as I can tell, neither.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_battleship

Tillman IV-1 called for 457mm x13 and Tillman IV-2 called for x15.

 

Someone found this for Tillman IV-2

1927c216cb.png

that what i found too.  Right now in it current config they should be 16 inc gun 4x4.  Lol needs one more turret of 18 inch guns.

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36 minutes ago, Dr_Venture said:

Check the bar near the wargaming studio, napkins specifically. 

lol

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43 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Not an expert on this, but as far as I can tell, neither.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_battleship

Tillman IV-1 called for 457mm x13 and Tillman IV-2 called for x15.

 

Someone found this for Tillman IV-2

1927c216cb.png

Many Bothans died getting those plans. It's a good thing I don't hire Bothans.

I entrust my secret stash of OP BB designs with my 🐕 and the cute kittens he also looks after.

IMG_20200729_192605928_BURST004.jpg

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42 minutes ago, DeadIyArT said:

that what i found too.  Right now in it current config they should be 16 inc gun 4x4.  Lol needs one more turret of 18 inch guns.

I think it's safe to say that 5 turrets is a bit wierd since that design is a version of many designs.

That extra turret is only good at broadside.

The original premise was long range artillery duels and the ships were designed for flat trajectory side impacts.

The early development was optical directors.

At tier 10, it would have significantly better range directors that are enhanced with radar.

The Tillman's are pre-Washington treaty.

If WG went to tier 10, they would have no treaty restrictions and would be capable of dealing a lot of damage.

They would also have a modernized look to them.

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Kansas and Minnesota are both based on the 1920s South Dakota class, with differing states of rebuild/reconstruction.

Vermont is not based on any specific Tillman design. None of the known Tillman designs match exactly with the specifications of the Vermont. There isn't a Tillman with exactly that armament (twelve 18-inch guns). One fairly popular claim is that it's Tillman IV-2 with one turret removed and the bow/stern shortened slightly. I'm not personally convinced of that, as some features don't match (i.e., locations of cage masts/superstructures). For example, IV-2 has a cage mast in between the funnels and Vermont has no similar structure.

I tend to think of Vermont as not a historical Tillman design but more of a homage to the overall design. The overall arrangement is most similar to Tillman I, but Wargaming has outright upgraded all of that design's 16-inch guns to 18-inch ones. Then the whole ship got a West Virginia-style rebuild. I leave it up to the math people to figure out what displacement Vermont is supposed to be, but Tillman I was said to be a 70,000-ton design.

Edited by leops_1984

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5 minutes ago, leops_1984 said:

 I leave it up to the math people to figure out what displacement Vermont is supposed to be, but Tillman I was said to be a 70,000-ton design.

shot-20_08.09_00_44.55-0509.thumb.jpg.b0e14d76026efe12ccc322b679d23be7.jpg

70,000 tons

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1 minute ago, DeadIyArT said:

shot-20_08.09_00_44.55-0509.thumb.jpg.b0e14d76026efe12ccc322b679d23be7.jpg

70,000 tons

That's the text description. What I was curious was if it matches the known HP formula for battleships..

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49 minutes ago, SteelRain_Rifleman said:

Many Bothans died getting those plans. It's a good thing I don't hire Bothans.

Makes me remember playing in the 1990s "TIE Fighter."

You were an Imperial Pilot and the reason why Mon Mothma had to say, "many Bothans died to get us this information."

:Smile_glasses:

I used to love that game so much.

 

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2 hours ago, Dr_Venture said:

Check the bar near the wargaming studio, napkins specifically. 

to be fair all versions of the Tillmans were also designed on a napkin

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23 minutes ago, Noshiro_ said:

to be fair all versions of the Tillmans were also designed on a napkin

Not only that, the USN was never serious about them.  The Tillman Designs were really a result of the USN and Senator Tillman trolling each other.

Senator Tillman had grown impatient with the Navy's requests for larger battleships every year as well as the Navy's habit of building battleships significantly larger than Congress authorized. He accordingly instructed the Navy to design "maximum battleships", the largest battleships that they could use.

 

Senator Tillman: (Annoyed) "Tired of your sh*t Navy, you keep making these d*mn things bigger, just how big should they be???"

US Navy: "... Okay."

(Later)

US Navy: "Here you go Senator Tillman."

(Hands in homework)

Senator Tillman: (Looks at the completely ridiculous designs):Smile-angry:

US Navy: :Smile_honoring:

 

The whole history of why the USN did the "Standard" BBs is kind of funny.  A Survey Of The American "Standard Type" Battleship.

Certainly all navies operated under physical and fiscal constraints, but the US Navy was probably uniquely restricted compared to other powers during the dreadnought period. Where the British were most constrained by physical and the Japanese by economic limitations, the United States was essentially economically and physically unlimited with respect to battleship construction (outside the need to pass the Panama Canal and into Hampton Roads). All major constraints were actually exercised by the US Congress (through fiscal means) and the Executive Branch of the government through the Navy Secretary. In this case, the Navy Secretary was Josephus Daniels, a man of high ideals but possessing little naval knowledge or experience. Among those high ideals was temperance of habit, whether it was drinking alcohol, spending money or forms of aggrandizement - such as unrestrained growth of battleship designs. Thus the "Standard Type" was "artificially" constrained.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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Design IV-2 was the final one presented to Congress I believe. We'd have to assume that in some crazy alternate universe where such a behemoth was built some changes would have been made. Removing the middle turret would allow for a somewhat smaller and lighter ship, likely closer to 70,000 tons standard than the 80,000 of IV-2. It would also reflect the preference the USN had established for a superfiring AB-XY turret layout.

However it really should have the 25.2 knot design speed and 16" of belt armor the IV-2 design did.

As far as the details of the modernization such a ship would have undergone I wonder if they really would have removed all of the secondary 6" guns it would have been built with. Maybe it could keep a handful in casemates.

Edited by Lampshade_M1A2

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4 hours ago, DeadIyArT said:

Been looking but cant seem to find it. 4x3 357mm gun?  @Hapa_Fodder

 

 

Vermont's model come from something like this. 

 New Competition Design Your Very Own Russian Tier 8 Cruiser ...

 That above is not the BB design but you get the picture and Of course WG has lots more to come too

Buy Mediterranean Style Blue And White Tissue Boxes Paper Napkin ...

This picture below has the designs for The Russian CV line, Tier 4 through to 10 and also the Tier 6 Premium coming very soon.

 

Walmart still has these household essentials in stock

 

Edited by tm63au

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2 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Not only that, the USN was never serious about them.  The Tillman Designs were really a result of the USN and Senator Tillman trolling each other.

Senator Tillman had grown impatient with the Navy's requests for larger battleships every year as well as the Navy's habit of building battleships significantly larger than Congress authorized. He accordingly instructed the Navy to design "maximum battleships", the largest battleships that they could use.

 

Senator Tillman: (Annoyed) "Tired of your sh*t Navy, you keep making these d*mn things bigger, just how big should they be???"

US Navy: "... Okay."

(Later)

US Navy: "Here you go Senator Tillman."

(Hands in homework)

Senator Tillman: (Looks at the completely ridiculous designs):Smile-angry:

US Navy: :Smile_honoring:

 

The whole history of why the USN did the "Standard" BBs is kind of funny.  A Survey Of The American "Standard Type" Battleship.

Certainly all navies operated under physical and fiscal constraints, but the US Navy was probably uniquely restricted compared to other powers during the dreadnought period. Where the British were most constrained by physical and the Japanese by economic limitations, the United States was essentially economically and physically unlimited with respect to battleship construction (outside the need to pass the Panama Canal and into Hampton Roads). All major constraints were actually exercised by the US Congress (through fiscal means) and the Executive Branch of the government through the Navy Secretary. In this case, the Navy Secretary was Josephus Daniels, a man of high ideals but possessing little naval knowledge or experience. Among those high ideals was temperance of habit, whether it was drinking alcohol, spending money or forms of aggrandizement - such as unrestrained growth of battleship designs. Thus the "Standard Type" was "artificially" constrained.

mfw got in trouble for calling tillman racist

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2 hours ago, Lampshade_M1A2 said:

Design IV-2 was the final one presented to Congress I believe. We'd have to assume that in some crazy alternate universe where such a behemoth was built some changes would have been made. Removing the middle turret would allow for a somewhat smaller and lighter ship, likely closer to 70,000 tons standard than the 80,000 of IV-2. It would also reflect the preference the USN had established for a superfiring AB-XY turret layout.

However it really should have the 25.2 knot design speed and 16" of belt armor the IV-2 design did.

As far as the details of the modernization such a ship would have undergone I wonder if they really would have removed all of the secondary 6" guns it would have been built with. Maybe it could keep a handful in casemates.

That is what I gathered as well from Friedman's book. The Vermont looks like a post 1941 refit with a blister and the 5" duel purpose guns...but that it a guess. 

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2 hours ago, Lampshade_M1A2 said:

Design IV-2 was the final one presented to Congress I believe. We'd have to assume that in some crazy alternate universe where such a behemoth was built some changes would have been made. Removing the middle turret would allow for a somewhat smaller and lighter ship, likely closer to 70,000 tons standard than the 80,000 of IV-2. It would also reflect the preference the USN had established for a superfiring AB-XY turret layout.

However it really should have the 25.2 knot design speed and 16" of belt armor the IV-2 design did.

As far as the details of the modernization such a ship would have undergone I wonder if they really would have removed all of the secondary 6" guns it would have been built with. Maybe it could keep a handful in casemates.

25.2 knots and radar guided guns which should probably improve the sigma and dispersion somewhat IMO, at least on the Vermont if nothing else.

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My guess as to what Vermont is, would be the Tillman II design, but instead of 16x 16in guns in four turrets, it's got the 12x 18in guns in four turrets. This makes it a plausible design and WG has done a hypothetical turret/gun swap many times before.

 

However, from a design evolution stand point, the Vermont makes zero sense.

So you have a variant of a Tillman design (1917), which featured 12x 18in guns, making it the biggest and most expensive ship, ever.
This ship would have easily outclassed Colorado-class (1918~1923), which was built around 1yr after the Tillman designs were discussed.

And then you hit the Washington Naval Treaty (1922), ordering a stop to more battleships.

So now "Vermont" would be the Biggest and most powerful battleship, EVER, to float the seas.
Keep in mind, Tillman II is huge (70,000t displacement), unlike Colorado (33,000t displacement)

Colorado-class were part of the Big Seven, however Colorado-class only received upgrades to their secondaries and fire directors, as they were considered obsolete with the introduction of North Carolina (45,000t), South Dakota (45,000t) and Iowa-classes (60,000t).
16in gun proliferation at its finest.

Colorado-class was definitely obsolete, but a ship with 12x 18in guns? I highly doubt it, even if the ship was slow, it could have gotten a complete refitting of the engines.
Conversely, if "Vermont" was to be obsoleted, it would have had a successor, much like Colorado did.
If I had to guess, you'd have something like an Ohio or Georgia, but with a mix of twin and triple turrets, so as to not sacrifice too much firepower for speed.

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8 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Makes me remember playing in the 1990s "TIE Fighter."

You were an Imperial Pilot and the reason why Mon Mothma had to say, "many Bothans died to get us this information."

:Smile_glasses:

I used to love that game so much.

 

WOW, the missions are so plot driven. Mind blown.

My favorite Star Wars game was in the arcade. Flying the trench run, but many variants of the game has me go down quite a road far, far, away. Star Wars on NES, Rebel Assault on Sega CD, and Rogue Squadron on N64. I kind of hadn't touched a game since rogue because I was not able to play due to medical issues and other things back then. I was on the road too much and it was only until PS2 came along that I got back in it. I may have dabbled a bit since, but I actually skipped quite a few.

I miss those games and will probably check out the latest one soon. But I have to find out if my hands will get fixed this year. I got severe carpal tunnel syndrome in both hands due to my line of work.

I plan to fix them and may actually be out a bit for PT.

Last time I had surgery issues of this magnitude, I completely disregarded entertainment of any kind just so I could be normal again. The break last time from any gaming was from 2003-07. I probably played some, but at a relatives place.

I miss playing anything Star Wars.

If I had to choose, I guess Rogue Squadron was my favorite so far. Because I could fly the Millennium Falcon, bomb stuff in a Y-wing, fly the interceptor, and skyhopper. There was also the A-Wing. It was fun with that one. Of course, the X-Wing was great.

It led up to the development of battlefront. I did buy both games, but hadn't opened either one up yet.

Probably because I keep getting sidetracked.

Edited by SteelRain_Rifleman

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