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Telastyn

Quicky Loewenhardt Review

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Picked this up since it was on sale and I found the Graf Zeppelin to be my sort of ship. A mini-Zeppelin at tier 6? With some wonky planes that reward skill? Sure.

I'm sure someone will come along and do a more thorough review, but some thoughts after a dozen games.

 

Summary

It looks like a Zeppelin - about the same length and layout. Same secondary armament. The armor layout looks to be the largely the same, but felt a lot less effective. It has about 20k less HP, which might account for the "squishy" feeling. Concealment is ~2k better.

Planes

It has the Percival's AP rockets. Unfortunately, at tier 6 that doesn't really make much of a difference. They do more damage than the Weser's, and seem to pen more reliably, but they don't seem to citadel any more often. If anything they seem to citadel less. If you make a good approach and choose a good target and manage to deal with the neigh invisible reticle and fiddly targeting you'll do around a whopping 2500 damage (and probably lose half your flight). I managed to punch a Furutaka for 10k with one attack, but the Weser seems to do more reliable damage here - and its AP planes are already poor to bad. On the plus side, the planes are speedy (~150kts stock).

It's torpedo bombers are faster than Weser's, but the torps are slow (32kts stock) and have long range (6km). I didn't think this was going to be a problem. I have a thousand+ games using the Zeppelin's torps to great effect, and they're only 37 kts. I was wrong. These are the least usable torpedo bombers in the game. The problem is that each attack flight drops like the Weser - two torps fairly wide. Even slow as hell tier 6 BBs have no problem avoiding them even with a good drop, particularly shorter ones like US standards. And even if you manage to hit with both, you do a whopping 6k (and probably lose half your flight).

The dive bombers are unique! They fly like the Weser's (starting very high, with the reticle right below) and have a circular reticle like the Zeppelin - except it's about half the size of the Zeppelin. It's tinyYou can comfortably fit the entire circle inside of a BB. The upside is that you can drop on pretty much anything. I could reliably hit even DDs that weren't good about maneuvering. You drop two bombs per attack, and they pen almost everything (except stuff like Sinop turret roofs), likely cause fires (69% chance stock) and do about 2k per bomb - which seems like a bit, until you remember the Weser's does 7k per bomb on a cit. The problem is the tiny reticle. It means you'll almost never start more than one fire because both bombs will hit the same fire region. And it also means that you'll miss entirely if you misjudge the enemy's speed or drift when they're turning. They’re also speedier than the Weser’s biplanes (~150kts stock), helping them hunt dds.

Oh, and while the planes are a little tankier than the Weser, your hangar space is somehow lower despite having a ship significantly bigger. And they're not nearly tanky enough to deal with tier 7-8 AA.

The fighters seem similar to the Weser. Meh coverage, with fine effectiveness.

Secondaries and stuff

Part of the appeal of playing a KM CV is being able to brawl a little when the time comes. At first glance, having Zeppelin guns at their 6 seems highly fun (and probably overpowered!). Sorry to spoil that for you. The guns are the same sort of effectiveness, but they max out at 7.6k rather than 9.4k like the Zeppelin. That is fine-ish. It's tier 6 after all, and the concealment improvement can make up for some of that. The bigger problem is the Loewnhardt doesn't have the Zeppelin accuracy buff. So instead of melting things at 7k you're shooting fireworks into the ocean while the enemy sinks you. I mean, they're still better than the Weser by a lot, but you can't rely on them like you can in the Zeppelin.

The AA is fine. The stats say it's a teeny bit better than Weser, but it's hard to tell. It seems to be on par with other tier 6 CVs - enough to stop a second attack but not the first.

It is a pretty fast cv (35 kts), which lets you run effectively, and in a better ship would let you chase down and brawl with enemies. 

Verdict

Hey game designers - people should be rewarded for high skill play. Making the Loewenhardt way harder to play than the Weser just so you can do less damage seems backwards...

Edited by Telastyn
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Nice review thankyou.

 

Edited by Sumseaman

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33 minutes ago, Telastyn said:

The dive bombers are unique! They fly like the Weser's (starting very high, with the reticle right below) and have a circular reticle like the Zeppelin - except it's about half the size of the Zeppelin. It's tinyYou can comfortably fit the entire circle inside of a BB.

Yea and somehow those bombs still manages to find a pixel to squeeze through and land in the water

 

:Smile_sceptic:

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41 minutes ago, Telastyn said:

Secondaries and stuff

Part of the appeal of playing a KM CV is being able to brawl a little when the time comes. At first glance, having Zeppelin guns at their 6 seems highly fun (and probably overpowered!). Sorry to spoil that for you. The guns are the same sort of effectiveness, but they max out at 7.6k rather than 9.4k like the Zeppelin. That is fine-ish. It's tier 6 after all, and the concealment improvement can make up for some of that. The bigger problem is the Loewnhardt doesn't have the Zeppelin accuracy buff. So instead of melting things at 7k you're shooting fireworks into the ocean while the enemy sinks you. I mean, they're still better than the Weser by a lot, but you can't rely on them like you can in the Zeppelin.

 

So she really doesn't have the improved dispersion on her secondaries. I donno if it's just me, but I feel like this is a bit of a let down. If she had it, I can see why people might think it's too strong... but then again, it's at Tier VI, capped at 7.6 km for max range. I'm not sure if it would have been that detrimental.

And is hers still really better than Weser's? At least Weser's can hit stuffs. I doubt Lowen's will be any better, simply due to the atrocious accuracy. I mean, you don't hear about some secondary prowess from Tier VI ships, for a reason.

Maybe it's just me.

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I find her to be the best tier for tier German CV but that’s just me. The bombs are strong and reliable. I rarely miss when fully dialed in. AP rockets are meh as with all of them. They’re my least used armament since the cruiser has to basically let you hit them. Didn’t realize a DD was creeping until my secondaries started opening up and made him regret it. I like it more than the T10 TBH lol.

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45 minutes ago, Blorgh2017 said:

So she really doesn't have the improved dispersion on her secondaries. I donno if it's just me, but I feel like this is a bit of a let down. If she had it, I can see why people might think it's too strong... but then again, it's at Tier VI, capped at 7.6 km for max range. I'm not sure if it would have been that detrimental.

And is hers still really better than Weser's? At least Weser's can hit stuffs. I doubt Lowen's will be any better, simply due to the atrocious accuracy. I mean, you don't hear about some secondary prowess from Tier VI ships, for a reason.

Maybe it's just me.

Yeah, adding in 16 150mms (almost 2 Nurnbergs) is way better than Weser. Accuracy should be similar, you just get more than twice the guns with +50% pen/damage.

But still a mere shadow of Zeppelin.

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Took her into Raptor Rescue, and she's ok. Probably not as good as Ryujo in it, but there's plenty of Kuma's running around to hit with rockets. 

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55 minutes ago, Telastyn said:

Yeah, adding in 16 150mms (almost 2 Nurnbergs) is way better than Weser. Accuracy should be similar, you just get more than twice the guns with +50% pen/damage.

But still a mere shadow of Zeppelin.

That makes sense. I almost forgot about how Lowen has 12 105mm guns PLUS those 150mm guns, whereas Weser only has 12 105mm guns. So Lowen would make up for less accuracy with volume of fire, as you implied. 

Do you recommend speccing for a Secondary build for Lowen (I'm thinking a hybrid of Air & Secondaries), or just go full air build? I'm just curious. 

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25 minutes ago, Blorgh2017 said:

That makes sense. I almost forgot about how Lowen has 12 105mm guns PLUS those 150mm guns, whereas Weser only has 12 105mm guns. So Lowen would make up for less accuracy with volume of fire, as you implied. 

Do you recommend speccing for a Secondary build for Lowen (I'm thinking a hybrid of Air & Secondaries), or just go full air build? I'm just curious. 

Too early to tell. Personally, I like doing a mix since I find skills like Sight Stabilization to be a waste. 
 

Currently running AFT, concealment, the secondary equipment and plane stuff.

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50 minutes ago, Blorgh2017 said:

That makes sense. I almost forgot about how Lowen has 12 105mm guns PLUS those 150mm guns, whereas Weser only has 12 105mm guns. So Lowen would make up for less accuracy with volume of fire, as you implied. 

Do you recommend speccing for a Secondary build for Lowen (I'm thinking a hybrid of Air & Secondaries), or just go full air build? I'm just curious. 

I just put the secondary mod equipment on Loewenhardt and would most likely use a full dedicated CV captain, buuuuut if I am feeling bored I'll slap on Lutjens full secondary build captain including with IFHE and Man Sec and I don't need to change a thing to Loewenhardt as the secondary mod equipment is the only thing that would affect the ship's performance in secondaries.

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I played a few games, tonight.

Still trying to get the bomber's behavior figured out.

Torpedoes are slow (much like Graf Zeppelin, instead of like Weser).  Took me a bit too long to figure that out and adjust my aim.

Replays enclosed.  Raptor Rescue ended early and in a defeat.
Perhaps others can learn from my experiences (much as I am going to try to do).

20200805_215129_PGSA506-Erich-Loewenhardt_42_Neighbors.wowsreplay

20200805_221444_PGSA506-Erich-Loewenhardt_s03_Labyrinth.wowsreplay

20200805_223237_PGSA506-Erich-Loewenhardt_52_Britain.wowsreplay

20200805_224459_PGSA506-Erich-Loewenhardt_13_OC_new_dawn.wowsreplay

 

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shot-20_08.05_22_06.36-0452.thumb.jpg.377841228e4d89aaaa3744076636ef86.jpg
I'm gonna need at least 3 more skill points to get the Advanced Firing Training skill.
Tagged for @Blorgh2017

Edited by Wolfswetpaws

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9 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

shot-20_08.05_22_06.36-0452.thumb.jpg.377841228e4d89aaaa3744076636ef86.jpg
I'm gonna need at least 3 more skill points to get the Advanced Firing Training skill.
Tagged for @Blorgh2017

Good luck.

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6 hours ago, Telastyn said:

It looks like a Zeppelin - about the same length and layout. Same secondary armament. The armor layout looks to be the largely the same, but felt a lot less effective. It has about 20k less HP, which might account for the "squishy" feeling. Concealment is ~2k better

That's because it IS Graf Zeppelin. 

The tier 8 has the modified Atlantic Bow (that made her slightly longer), a proposed revision around and too the superstructure (the curved funnel cap not present in any existing pictures of GZ was before the final construction halt), the AA/Secondaries are her original 1938 armament (after the mix up that gave it 8x2 15 cm guns instead of 8x1) - before they changed the 2 cm singles to 2 cm flakvierling, and before they changed the bow flakvierling to a  twin 10.5 cm gun (after a proposal to remove the 15 cm guns for more 10.5's in sponsons below the flight deck was shelved as they would need to partially deconstruct and rebuild the ship to do so but added that gun) as well as having her second or third proposed air group configuration where the outdated biplanes (that they put at tier 7) were swapped out for modified Stuka's. Not 100% sure but it may also be prior to the bulges that were added for stability (that did increase protection namely vs torpedoes) given they use the estimated speed of 35 knots for what the machinery could do. 

Haven't seen what the hanger is like, early reports make me afraid, but it sounds like it's either A: based off her Luftwaffe allotment of about 40 planes (hanger space for 2-3 times that), B: her 'prepped planes' (8x 109's ready to go at any given time, no warm up, not sure on Stuka's) or C: the capabilities of her catapult (the intent was to cat launch only unless they had to use rolling take offs).

A friend was generous enough to get me one (turns out ended up a little out of my current price range) - it's based on C. 3 groups, 6 planes, 18 aircraft, max it could launch in a row before a 50 minute recharge of the cats. 

Also need words with Wargaming because 'Sprenggranate' is not 'armour piercing', and they didn't even lazily put an 'AP' on the end of what is translated in English to 'High Explosive' in regards to ordnance and all. If they aren't going to give it HE, or more historically accurate BR 21's/Wfr.Gr 21's - they could at least call them Panzergranate or Pz. Gr which is actually 'Armour piercing' - perhaps at 'Rakete' at the end. Or y'know, and of the other words for rocket/missile in German. Much as this is the first CV in a while where that (and bomb designation) are the only things I have to complain about on a history level while refreshing, is also annoying 

Edited by WanderingGhost

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Its GOTTA be better than Weser though right?  Weser is the one of the most awful pieces of crap I've ever had the unfortunate experience of playing.

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7 hours ago, Blorgh2017 said:

Good luck.

Thanks.

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6 hours ago, Zenn3k said:

Its GOTTA be better than Weser though right?  Weser is the one of the most awful pieces of crap I've ever had the unfortunate experience of playing.

I have the Weser and now the Erich Loewenhardt.

I terms of game play, they're similar.  So far, I've been more effective with the Weser.  But that's because I hadn't quite adjusted my aiming for the E.L.'s slow torpedo speeds and was still learning the quirks of the dive-bomber behavior and how maneuvering during a bombing attack affects the reticle.  (I've posted the replays from the four games played in E.L., last night). 

With some practice, I hope to become at least as competent as I am with other CV's.

I like that I can use the Erich Loewenhardt in Tier-6 Scenario Operations and I'm looking forward to sailing it in "Killer Whale".

In some ways, it reminds me of the Ranger (wide torpedo spread, a small number HE-bombs per drop).  
But Erich Loewenhardt sails faster and the planes aren't as "tanky", and the rocket planes' aiming reticle is similar to the Rhein and Weser along with the AP rockets versus the HE rockets and reticle behavior of other nation's CV's.
Scoring multiple citadels on a cruiser with AP rockets was gratifying.

So, I'm going to invest some time in learning how the Erich Loewenhardt and her planes behave, in order to improve my game.

Last night, I didn't have much opportunity to pay attention to how the secondary batteries were performing.  On paper, Erich Loewenhardt's secondary suite looks better than Ranger, though.
 

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12 hours ago, Telastyn said:

Picked this up since it was on sale and I found the Graf Zeppelin to be my sort of ship. A mini-Zeppelin at tier 6? With some wonky planes that reward skill? Sure.

I'm sure someone will come along and do a more thorough review, but some thoughts after a dozen games.

 

Summary

It looks like a Zeppelin - about the same length and layout. Same secondary armament. The armor layout looks to be the largely the same, but felt a lot less effective. It has about 20k less HP, which might account for the "squishy" feeling. Concealment is ~2k better.

Planes

It has the Percival's AP rockets. Unfortunately, at tier 6 that doesn't really make much of a difference. They do more damage than the Weser's, and seem to pen more reliably, but they don't seem to citadel any more often. If anything they seem to citadel less. If you make a good approach and choose a good target and manage to deal with the neigh invisible reticle and fiddly targeting you'll do around a whopping 2500 damage (and probably lose half your flight). I managed to punch a Furutaka for 10k with one attack, but the Weser seems to do more reliable damage here - and its AP planes are already poor to bad.

It's torpedo bombers are faster than Weser's, but the torps are slow (32kts stock) and have long range (6km). I didn't think this was going to be a problem. I have a thousand+ games using the Zeppelin's torps to great effect, and they're only 37 kts. I was wrong. These are the least usable torpedo bombers in the game. The problem is that each attack flight drops like the Weser - two torps fairly wide. Even slow as hell tier 6 BBs have no problem avoiding them even with a good drop, particularly shorter ones like US standards. And even if you manage to hit with both, you do a whopping 6k (and probably lose half your flight).

The dive bombers are unique! They fly like the Weser's (starting very high, with the reticle right below) and have a circular reticle like the Zeppelin - except it's about half the size of the Zeppelin. It's tinyYou can comfortably fit the entire circle inside of a BB. The upside is that you can drop on pretty much anything. I could reliably hit even DDs that weren't good about maneuvering. You drop two bombs per attack, and they pen almost everything (except stuff like Sinop turret roofs), likely cause fires (69% chance stock) and do about 2k per bomb - which seems like a bit, until you remember the Weser's does 7k per bomb on a cit. The problem is the tiny reticle. It means you'll almost never start more than one fire because both bombs will hit the same fire region. And it also means that you'll miss entirely if you misjudge the enemy's speed or drift when they're turning. 

Oh, and while the planes are a little tankier than the Weser, your hangar space is somehow lower despite having a ship significantly bigger. And they're not nearly tanky enough to deal with tier 7-8 AA.

The fighters seem similar to the Weser. Meh coverage, with fine effectiveness.

Secondaries and stuff

Part of the appeal of playing a KM CV is being able to brawl a little when the time comes. At first glance, having Zeppelin guns at their 6 seems highly fun (and probably overpowered!). Sorry to spoil that for you. The guns are the same sort of effectiveness, but they max out at 7.6k rather than 9.4k like the Zeppelin. That is fine-ish. It's tier 6 after all, and the concealment improvement can make up for some of that. The bigger problem is the Loewnhardt doesn't have the Zeppelin accuracy buff. So instead of melting things at 7k you're shooting fireworks into the ocean while the enemy sinks you. I mean, they're still better than the Weser by a lot, but you can't rely on them like you can in the Zeppelin.

The AA is fine. The stats say it's a teeny bit better than Weser, but it's hard to tell. It seems to be on par with other tier 6 CVs - enough to stop a second attack but not the first.

It is a pretty fast cv (35 kts), which lets you run effectively, and in a better ship would let you chase down and brawl with enemies. 

Verdict

Hey game designers - people should be rewarded for high skill play. Making the Loewenhardt way harder to play than the Weser just so you can do less damage seems backwards...

i have the same feeling a mix of Zeppelin and Weser.

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13 hours ago, Telastyn said:

and they pen almost everything (except stuff like Sinop turret roofs), likely cause fires (69% chance stock) and do about 2k per bomb

I thought they were supposed to do a lot more than that.

I'm interested in this ship, but that #@#$% rocket reticle and the curious placement of the bomb reticle are a major adjustment from the other carriers. I'm tempted to put my secondary-specced Bismarck captain in her for LULS and drive her as a cruiser if I get into Tier 8 battles where I'm effectively deplaned. 

@Wolfswetpaws If you take her into Killer Whale, let me know if she can target the land installations with her secondaries. That would be hilarious, as would driving into the midst of the transports and shooting them all up (just watch out for the Konig Albert). 

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20 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

 

@Wolfswetpaws If you take her into Killer Whale, let me know if she can target the land installations with her secondaries. That would be hilarious, as would driving into the midst of the transports and shooting them all up (just watch out for the Konig Albert). 

I enjoy doing that with all my other Tier-6 CV's.  Getting hits on shore installations and pill-boxes with a CV's secondary battery is something I'm looking forward to with the Erich Loewenhardt, too.

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I played one game in it last night.     It still has no appreciable weapons against DDs short of spotting.. A DD would have to be a literal paralyzed potato in a DD to get hit by its HE DBs.   I do like the DBs a lot better than Weser's due to HE and giving you some more options against cruisers as well.  It's HE DBs are a much more consistent perfromer against BBs, but due lack the AP alpha of the Weser.   Rockets may to be  bit better as well as my quick impression is it is delivering more ordinance per stike?   Again i need to look and see if I am correct.   It's planes feel a bit more fragile to me than the Weser,?  But speed is real good for t6 and regen seems pretty generous.   i'll probably put it away for a while..  grinding some other stuff and frankly with the CV spam at the tier and  wait time, is pretty awful.  Grinding Weser,  so one nightly win at T6 CV will be enough for me.    

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7 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:


I like that I can use the Erich Loewenhardt in Tier-6 Scenario Operations and I'm looking forward to sailing it in "Killer Whale".
 

Eh Killer Whale is probably the least suitable op for Erich Loewenhardt due to the lack of cruisers you can citadel with using AP rockets and the abundance of BBs and DDs that Erich Loewenhardt is not capable to wiping out quickly or as devastatingly.

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I like how no one mentions the speed of Loewenhardt's planes. I guess people simply don't understand the advantages of having T10 plane speeds in a T6 MM. 

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