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ReleaseTheKaren

German Destroyers: Forgotten?

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I've been playing through a few DD lines (American, Japanese, German), and I have previous experience with Pan-Asian and British DDs as well (lost the username and password though) It seems to me that German destroyers do nothing well? They have massive a massive turn radius, their detection is on par with the most visible counterparts of other nations, and the hydro-accoustic search is neither exclusive to German DDs, nor competitive with radar (tier 7+).

Am I missing something? Otherwise, I'd like to suggest that the German DD line get a bit of love... Maybe better surface detection? Or a slight buff to maneuverability? Really: anything to make German DDs more than a mediocre jack-of-all-trades.

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2 hours ago, Shrayes_Bhagavatula said:

Nothing too serious

I agree! The German DD line perpetually feels like it's on the cusp of being relevant, but always falls short. German DDs are close to being worthwhile, and don't need a major adjustment to become so. However, they still fall short in their current state.

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started playing French DDs, after giving up on US and IJN, not into the Russian DDs. with the French, there are similarities... the detection range can be crippling, no smoke to bail out, but the burst damage from those guns, and useful torps, stupidly bad AA, but mostly because of the speed, i can get them to work. at least thru T6 so far. :o)

what would it take for the German DD line to be at least as useful? AA seems better, turning circle can't be worse than the French or Russians (is it?) HP pool seems ok, RoF seems slow, German hydro has been crept to death, bottom line nobody seems scared when you are going head to head in one.

want to get a T10 in each major line, dreading the German line. it does need some love.

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Forgotten??!?!?!

They got a buff in Jun 20.  How fast people forget   :Smile_popcorn:

 

 

 

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They already got buffed this patch or the previous one (the one that opened the Odin dockyard). They received a penetration boost, meaning all German lines were unified with a 1/4 HE penetration. Meaning all 128mm ships get a 32mm penetration (capable of damaging all extremities in the game) and all 150mm ships get 38mm penetration (penetrating even the deck armor of the american BBs). The HE damage is still lackluster, but at least it is much more versatile than throwing AP at everything.

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You don't need IFHE to penetrate 32mm armor. That means you can either keep your full fire chance or go crazy and pen a lot of BBs.

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4 hours ago, madgiecool said:

Forgotten??!?!?!

They got a buff in Jun 20.  How fast people forget   :Smile_popcorn:

 

 

 

Well, boosting the he pen on a dd with HE dpm similar to Shima will not boost it a lot. 

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8 hours ago, Y_Nagato said:

Well, boosting the he pen on a dd with HE dpm similar to Shima will not boost it a lot. 

So it got a buff maybe not a great one about 2 months ago.... that is not my point,  my point is WG did do something, so clearly not forgotten.  Shame on the OP for suggesting it was forgotten when it was auctioned (how well is debatable - not my point) about 2 months ago.

if you want to post on the value of the buff, and I see you agree as you do state it is a boost. perhaps you can start a new thread?

 

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2 minutes ago, madgiecool said:

So it got a buff maybe not a great one about 2 months ago.... that is not my point,  my point is WG did do something, so clearly not forgotten.  Shame on the OP for suggesting it was forgotten when it was auctioned (how well is debatable - not my point) about 2 months ago.

if you want to post on the value of the buff, and I see you agree as you do state it is a boost. perhaps you can start a new thread?

 

More than a proper boost, it was just making German line coherent since the same gun on a cruiser or a battleship had more pen. So does it make them better? arguably in some situation. Does that make them on par with the other line? No.

  • Boring 1

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A lot of good replies.

I checked the maneuverability of German DDs versus USSR and France equivalents: Germans are more maneuverable. My very "un-scientific" comparison of ship length also seems to marginally favor the Germans.

The observation about German AP's penetration is fair. I suppose part of playing the German DDs is giving up "harder" targets, and focusing only on the squishy ones.

I don't have any proper counter-points, except to say that without a gun reload booster, ship repair, worthwhile smokescreen: the German DDs feel... poor? That being said, I am not sufficiently experienced to consider the global balance of the game, so I won't bring any further arguments to the table. Thank you for the replies though: they have given me food for thought.

Edited by ReleaseTheKaren
Typo

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On 8/4/2020 at 11:55 PM, Shrayes_Bhagavatula said:

I would just argue for either an RoF buff or an AP shell buff

Nothing too serious

-Shrayes

I'd suggest something that doesn't involve stat buffs to the existing German DDs. I say "existing" because my solution is a line split. Everything from Maass down would get moved down by 1 tier. Gaede and Z-23 would lose the ability to mount 128mm guns and get moved into the new line. Thus no need for awkward switching of playstyle between normal guns and CL caliber guns as people grind out the line.

Personally, I though most of the German DDs were a tier higher than would've made sense to begin with, but back then the German hydro and fast torp reload made up for it. The game has changed though, and moving them each a tier lower would counteract the powercreep. I suspect only marginal nerfs would be needed in most cases (illustrating just how powercreeped German DDs are), giving them the standard upgrade slots, consumables and torps for their new tiers.

So what would the vacated tiers be filled with and what would be the new big-gun like look like? It'd look like this:

Tier 12.8cm gun DDs 15cm gun DDs
6 Leberecht Maass Ernst Gaede
7 Diether von Roeder (Zerstörer 1936) Z-23
8 Z-46 Z-40 (Zerstörer 1938A/Ac)
9 Z-52 SP-1 (Spähkreuzer 1938)
10 Z-57 (Zerstörer 1945) SP-4 (Spähkreuzer 1940)

Diether von Roeder would pretty much be the current Maass but with some extra HP and a half knot faster. Tier for tier I don't think Maass is in as bad a shape as some of the German DDs.

Z-57 would be like Z-52 but with an extra turret and nearly 2.5 knots faster. 8 guns would guarantee her relevance against other DDs, even with the weak German HE.

Z-40 is slower than Z-23 but makes up by having a bigger armament (3x2 150mm, a turret each forward, aft and amidships, plus quintuple instead of quad torps) and a good deal more HP. German DDs already have large HP pools but the 15cm line would take that up to 11. These are big ships. The Zerstörer 1938A/Ac design has a full load displacement of 4902 tons, which should translate to 25500 HP. Being able to absorb more damage is part of how these ships will compensate for their inferior DPM. Given their low DPM, I'd give the 15cm line the same 1/4 HE pen as German CL/CAs and BBs.

The Spähkreuzers are (as the name implies) nominally "scout cruisers", but like the currently in development hell Italian Paolo Emilio they're really just big DDs. Really big DDs. 5713 tons for Spähkreuzer 1938 and 7500 tons for Spähkreuzer 1940. This gives estimated HP pools of 29150 for SP-1 and a frankly absurd 37150 for SP-4. (These ships wouldn't be remotely feasible to implement as CLs since they have effectively no armor and would be made out of citadel if put in a class that actually has a citadel.) Spähkreuzer 1938's design called for an 18mm belt, which is thinner than the standard 19mm DD plating, so I guess round that up to 20mm so that it least would show up in the armor viewer. Spähkreuzer 1940 would have a 25mm belt and thus it'd have at some relevance as protection against other DDs' HE shells.

Most likely they would (especially SP-4) have to take the full 33% damage of BB AP pens on account of those giant HP pools, like with Khabarovsk and Harugumo. They wouldn't get any special damage mitigation like Soviet DDs' heal or French DDs' special damage saturation, they'd just have lots of HP that can be sacrificed. WG could also of course tone down the HP pools to less than what their displacement would suggest.

Both ships would have the same 3x2 150mm guns as Z-40 but in an A-XY layout (1 forward, 2 superfiring aft). They're in larger turrets (similar to those of München but without the armor) so that could justify some increased reload speed to deal with the stronger competition at top tier. They'd also have the same 2x5 torps. SP-4 would also get a spotting aircraft, for what little that's worth in a DD with short-duration smoke.

The problem with this idea is that we just had another German line debut in the last month. So a German DD line split isn't going to be next in the queue.

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