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Ensign_Cthulhu

It's battles like this one that make me understand why some BB captains fire only HE.

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29 hits for ~ 32,000 damage from Amagi-type 410mm guns. (Replay attached.)

This is an infuriating level of non-performance.

@Hapa_Fodder, IIRC the torpedo protection hit category was supposed to fix the non-damaging pen problem. I can assure you that it has not. I should not be getting non-damage penetrations (signalled as pens, not torp-protection hits) from FOUR HUNDRED AND TEN MILLIMETRE SHELLS.

I suspect the Devs have some work to do.

20200804_183337_PJSB878-Ignis-Purgatio_46_Estuary.wowsreplay

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4 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

29 hits for ~ 32,000 damage from Amagi-type 410mm guns. (Replay attached.)

This is an infuriating level of non-performance.

@Hapa_Fodder, IIRC the torpedo protection hit category was supposed to fix the non-damaging pen problem. I can assure you that it has not. I should not be getting non-damage penetrations (signalled as pens, not torp-protection hits) from FOUR HUNDRED AND TEN MILLIMETRE SHELLS.

I suspect the Devs have some work to do.

20200804_183337_PJSB878-Ignis-Purgatio_46_Estuary.wowsreplay

Yup, been complaining on and off about this for a long time, no damage penetrating hits on brand new targets with no damage saturation. Always got poo pooed, lol.

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12 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

IIRC the torpedo protection hit category was supposed to fix the non-damaging pen problem

No, it was never supposed to magically generate more damaging penetrating hits. It was supposed to improve transparency by separating non-damaging 'penetrations' into their own ribbon category.

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Yeah, AP on armor is kind of broken. Pens doing no damage, pens doing overpen damage, overpens doing pen damage. I would just like to know how much damage I'm going to do based on how my shells penetrated (which WG added a handy set of ribbons for). But I want to throw my mouse through my monitor when I aim correctly, get a bunch of pens, and do fuckall damage. Getting the game to figure out what the shells do when they hit a ship is kind of important, get it right. But I guess it's easier to slap a shiny camo on an existing ship, rename it, and sell it for twice the original price.

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5 minutes ago, Lert said:

No, it was never supposed to magically generate more damaging penetrating hits. It was supposed to improve transparency by separating non-damaging 'penetrations' into their own ribbon category.

Except it's not doing that. I'm getting full penetrations that score absolutely NO damage. I'm getting penetrating hits that knock out major calibre turrets on battleships and getting NO damage. By all means let them score as shatters and TPS hits, but a pen is a pen is a pen. 33% damage or go home.

Also, tell me this is a reward for good gunnery. Just over 25% of my hits were full pens. Over a third were completely ineffectual. Like I said, I can understand why some BB captains just say F it, shoot HE at everything and at least there's a fire chance even if the shell breaks.

image.thumb.png.cdf07510a5583a6bec6fc23577aab7aa.png

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1 minute ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Except it's not doing that. I'm getting full penetrations that score absolutely NO damage. I'm getting penetrating hits that knock out major calibre turrets on battleships and getting NO damage. By all means let them score as shatters and TPS hits, but a pen is a pen is a pen. 33% damage or go home.

The new ribbon does exactly what it's supposed to. Separate torpedo belt shatters from the normalpens. If we got a separate ribbon for incaps, that would help. Unfortunately those are still shown as pens, and you're very upset about that it seems.

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46 minutes ago, AJTP89 said:

Yeah, AP on armor is kind of broken. Pens doing no damage, pens doing overpen damage, overpens doing pen damage. I would just like to know how much damage I'm going to do based on how my shells penetrated (which WG added a handy set of ribbons for). But I want to throw my mouse through my monitor when I aim correctly, get a bunch of pens, and do fuckall damage. 

It helps to think of this as a RPG (it is not a shooter). Roll the dice to hit, roll the dice to damage, thats it, a very random process. I get less frustration and my monitor is safer.

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The whole over pen thing is kind of a joke and it is being exploited IMO.  I understood the issue DD's were having back when all you had to do was clip a DD with a BB shell and they lost 90% of their health but now we have DD's and some cruisers sitting full broadside to BB's doing more damage to the BB with their guns than the BB gets in return due to over penns.  I mean I get it, there are some places that a shell might pass all the way through due to armor profiles but is should not be the entire length of the ship.  The ships do have engine rooms, interior walls, etc all of which would slow a shell down allowing it time to arm.  Furthermore if you over pen a ship below the waterline it should cause flooding.  Besides that even if they do just pass through, a ship the size of an asashio eating 12 shells from a montana at 5km would break the ship in half, over pen or not.

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7 minutes ago, HallaSnackbar said:

The whole over pen thing is kind of a joke and it is being exploited IMO.  I understood the issue DD's were having back when all you had to do was clip a DD with a BB shell and they lost 90% of their health but now we have DD's and some cruisers sitting full broadside to BB's doing more damage to the BB with their guns than the BB gets in return due to over penns.  I mean I get it, there are some places that a shell might pass all the way through due to armor profiles but is should not be the entire length of the ship.  The ships do have engine rooms, interior walls, etc all of which would slow a shell down allowing it time to arm.  Furthermore if you over pen a ship below the waterline it should cause flooding.  Besides that even if they do just pass through, a ship the size of an asashio eating 12 shells from a montana at 5km would break the ship in half, over pen or not.

Eh...if you want overpen examples from real life, check out the Battle of Samar, Several times if the IJN had not been so prideful and realized that what they saw weren't Fleet Carriers but Escort Carriers and thus the ships with them were Destroyers and not Cruisers, we wouldn't have had the legendary rampage of the Tin Can Sailors. Several times Yamato shells completely overpenned an Escort Carrier, doing nothing much but punching a sizeable hole in it but not catastrophic damage. Heck the Johnston herself sustained 10 hits from a mixture of 356mm and 152mm AP and that's IRL and not in an Arcade shipgame.

The moment some of the fleet realized they were up against DDs and switched to HE, they quickly blew apart some of the DDs but those were few and far between.

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16 minutes ago, Yandere_Roon said:

Eh...if you want overpen examples from real life, check out the Battle of Samar, Several times if the IJN had not been so prideful and realized that what they saw weren't Fleet Carriers but Escort Carriers and thus the ships with them were Destroyers and not Cruisers, we wouldn't have had the legendary rampage of the Tin Can Sailors. Several times Yamato shells completely overpenned an Escort Carrier, doing nothing much but punching a sizeable hole in it but not catastrophic damage. Heck the Johnston herself sustained 10 hits from a mixture of 356mm and 152mm AP and that's IRL and not in an Arcade shipgame.

The moment some of the fleet realized they were up against DDs and switched to HE, they quickly blew apart some of the DDs but those were few and far between.

The DD flotilla did but unlike pretty much every other navy where the TBS (talk between ships) would have been flooded with that information the Japanese deference to authority left it up to each ship.

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Me;  Doc, I fell on a piece of rebar and it went all of the way through my side.

Doctor;  Don't worry no damage done, it went right through your torpedo bulge and didn't hit any vital parts.

Me;  My wife calls them love handles and It still hurts.

Doctor;  No it doesn't.

Edited by Sovereigndawg
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1 minute ago, Sovereigndawg said:

Me;  Doc, I fell on a piece of rebar and it went all of the way through my side.

Doctor;  Don't worry no damage done, it went right through you torpedo bulge.

Me;  It still hurts.

Doctor;  No it doesn't.

Yes but you're not a ship with lots of empty spaces AP shells could pass through, you're a squishy person whose insides are very compact and severing things like Arteries is a major issue. Ships have no such issue. The best example would be if humans had hollow legs an arms, stuff passing through would still leave a hole but the body as a whole would continue to function safely.

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1 hour ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

IIRC the torpedo protection hit category was supposed to fix the non-damaging pen problem. I can assure you that it has not. I should not be getting non-damage penetrations (signalled as pens, not torp-protection hits) from FOUR HUNDRED AND TEN MILLIMETRE SHELLS.

@Sovereigndawg as well:

The torpedo belt pen does no damage because all it does is penetrate the torpedo belt and then, if the angle is enough, ricochet off the belt and, if the angle is not enough, shatters on the belt armor.  If it penetrates the torpedo belt and goes on to penetrate the belt it is no longer shown as a torpedo belt penetration and is instead an overpenetration, penetration or citadel depending on what it does.

49 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

It helps to think of this as a RPG (it is not a shooter). Roll the dice to hit, roll the dice to damage, thats it, a very random process. I get less frustration and my monitor is safer.

The only RNG part of damage is if the angle of impact is enough to have a chance of penetrating or a chance to bounce.  Every other aspect of damage in the game follows hard rules.

Edited by Helstrem

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If a sailor leaves a mop bucket on the deck and your 16" shell lands in it, no damage. I get that.

But what's funny to me is when I clip the top of the conning tower, and get a torpedo protection ribbon.

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2 hours ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

29 hits for ~ 32,000 damage from Amagi-type 410mm guns. (Replay attached.)

This is an infuriating level of non-performance.

@Hapa_Fodder, IIRC the torpedo protection hit category was supposed to fix the non-damaging pen problem. I can assure you that it has not. I should not be getting non-damage penetrations (signalled as pens, not torp-protection hits) from FOUR HUNDRED AND TEN MILLIMETRE SHELLS.

I suspect the Devs have some work to do.

20200804_183337_PJSB878-Ignis-Purgatio_46_Estuary.wowsreplay

Try using 510mm AP shells, they burn right though torpedo protection and keep going deep into the target. The victim of such hits are luck if they don’t get citadel hits to top it all off... :Smile_trollface:

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Good ol' 0 damage pens, always been with us, always will. WG wont fix it.

Nice to have 24 hits with 356/410mm and caused a little over 9k damage...

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3 hours ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

the torpedo protection hit category was supposed to fix the non-damaging pen problem. I can assure you that it has not. I should not be getting non-damage penetrations (signalled as pens, not torp-protection hits) from FOUR HUNDRED AND TEN MILLIMETRE SHELLS.

Off the top of my head, this sounds like a main battery pen. They do penetrate the armor and explode inside the target and do damage, but they don't count toward sinking the ship because turrets are their own thing (and can be disabled or permakilled accordingly). Is there a particular timecode where I should be looking?

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2 hours ago, Yandere_Roon said:

Eh...if you want overpen examples from real life, check out the Battle of Samar, Several times if the IJN had not been so prideful and realized that what they saw weren't Fleet Carriers but Escort Carriers and thus the ships with them were Destroyers and not Cruisers, we wouldn't have had the legendary rampage of the Tin Can Sailors. Several times Yamato shells completely overpenned an Escort Carrier, doing nothing much but punching a sizeable hole in it but not catastrophic damage. Heck the Johnston herself sustained 10 hits from a mixture of 356mm and 152mm AP and that's IRL and not in an Arcade shipgame.

The moment some of the fleet realized they were up against DDs and switched to HE, they quickly blew apart some of the DDs but those were few and far between.

While I agree with you, overpenning citadels should not be a thing. I've done a few tests and watched shells go right into the above water citadels and get overpens. the whole point of a citadel is that there is lots of very solid things in there that don't react well to shells.

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6 minutes ago, Nicoli_Voldkif said:

While I agree with you, overpenning citadels should not be a thing. I've done a few tests and watched shells go right into the above water citadels and get overpens. the whole point of a citadel is that there is lots of very solid things in there that don't react well to shells.

agree!! a 16" shell passing thru the waterline on the close side, and under the waterline on the far side, should at the very least cause flooding.

have you ever slapped the water as hard as you can?? it hurts, the fast something is moving when it hits the water, the more like solid it gets. if you consider a shell connecting with even thin armor, with water on the back side of it, that shell should detonate. with medium armor?? overpen?? just NO.

and even on the ships with 'no citadel' do have an engine in there somewhere, yes?? a shell can pass thru one of those and do no damage?? how? why? oh, the humanity.

Edited by Spud_butt

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A few weeks ago I hit a fully broadside Kremlin in my Thunderer with AP from 7 km's, a full salvo scored 7 penetrations for 3,200 dmg, but incapacitated his B turret . I have no idea how it was even possible, unless 6 of the 7 shells all impacted the exact same spot on his turret, which absorbed 6 Thunderer AP shells worth of damage. It happens extremely frequently, from what I've seen. 

I would say I get 0 damage "penetrations" in pretty well every game I play, at least once, with AP shells of all calibres. Add that to the tremendous amount of overpens you get vs pretty much all targets and AP shells can be extremely frustrating to use, in my experience anyways. I do use them a majority of the time in all my BB's, but having cruisers stop fully broadside to you, completely unaware you are there engaging a different target, and hitting their ship between the funnels at the waterline with 5-7 shells for 6,000 dmg in 5-7 overpens is extremely taxing. 

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As far as I'm concerned you should almost never be using HE in a BB unless you are playing british tech line BBs. Some other exceptions I can think of would be Lyon against T9s and Alsace/ Bourgogne when they only have angled BBs and some CAs to shoot at. Even with Thunderer, which has amazing HE, I still fire AP at least 60% of the time. Generally, unless you hit and angled bow or belt, I've found in my 5 years of playing that AP will typically do alot more damage almost all the time, again, except for the particular ships I mentioned above. In something like Montana, even multiple overpens in the superstructure is going to do more damage than the HE usually ever will. 

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4 minutes ago, admiralsexybeast said:

As far as I'm concerned you should almost never be using HE in a BB unless you are playing british tech line BBs. Some other exceptions I can think of would be Lyon against T9s and Alsace/ Bourgogne when they only have angled BBs and some CAs to shoot at. Even with Thunderer, which has amazing HE, I still fire AP at least 60% of the time. Generally, unless you hit and angled bow or belt, I've found in my 5 years of playing that AP will typically do alot more damage almost all the time, again, except for the particular ships I mentioned above. In something like Montana, even multiple overpens in the superstructure is going to do more damage than the HE usually ever will. 

I almost always start with HE loaded and switch to AP as I'm assuming a DD will be my first visible target. Some BBs AP at range is really not that good so HE is useful in those circumstances too.

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51 minutes ago, admiralsexybeast said:

As far as I'm concerned you should almost never be using HE in a BB unless you are playing british tech line BBs. Some other exceptions I can think of would be Lyon against T9s and Alsace/ Bourgogne when they only have angled BBs and some CAs to shoot at. Even with Thunderer, which has amazing HE, I still fire AP at least 60% of the time. Generally, unless you hit and angled bow or belt, I've found in my 5 years of playing that AP will typically do alot more damage almost all the time, again, except for the particular ships I mentioned above. In something like Montana, even multiple overpens in the superstructure is going to do more damage than the HE usually ever will. 

Dunkerque has good results changing between the two  ammo types. Her HE is effective vs angled targets.

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These changes and this garbage all started when they updated the AP - DD hits.  After that, over pens, no damage pens became common place for ALL ship classes.  WG Screwed it up and refuse to admit it.

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15 hours ago, HallaSnackbar said:

The whole over pen thing is kind of a joke and it is being exploited IMO.  I understood the issue DD's were having back when all you had to do was clip a DD with a BB shell and they lost 90% of their health but now we have DD's and some cruisers sitting full broadside to BB's doing more damage to the BB with their guns than the BB gets in return due to over penns.  I mean I get it, there are some places that a shell might pass all the way through due to armor profiles but is should not be the entire length of the ship.  The ships do have engine rooms, interior walls, etc all of which would slow a shell down allowing it time to arm.  Furthermore if you over pen a ship below the waterline it should cause flooding.  Besides that even if they do just pass through, a ship the size of an asashio eating 12 shells from a montana at 5km would break the ship in half, over pen or not.

*Gulio Cesare enters the chat*

Honestly. I swear to god 80% of broadside shots on cruisers from my GC are overpens. It's so frustrating not being able to punish Teh Stoopid. :Smile_sad:

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