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Admiral_Bingo

Rhein AA

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Lol, did anyone notice that the Rhein is one of the few ships, if not the only ship that has actual AA in its tier? She has weak long range DPS plus strong mid range DPS on her AA guns but that's far more potent than anything else at her tier.

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Most of her AA is concentrated in the 3.5 ish km bubble so even though it doesn't have enough AA DPS to stop a full attack, it wipes out squadrons with ease after their first run.

Man, putting a secondary build on it make the AA even more ridiculous.

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I put secondary build, BFT & AFT on both the tier 4 & 6....

 

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Taking away CV control opened the door for sniping, so they had to make AA stupid powerful to curtail it, which also means CV vs CV is a boring slug match or who has better secondaries. One of many reasons I detest the rework.

really need to buff AA at those tiers for other ships though, ot to that level but more tan what they got now.

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All of the CVs have the best AA, especially at tier 4. This was done to prevent CV vs CV sniping.

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1 hour ago, Admiral_Bingo said:

Lol, did anyone notice that the Rhein is one of the few ships, if not the only ship that has actual AA in its tier? She has weak long range DPS plus strong mid range DPS on her AA guns but that's far more potent than anything else at her tier.

 

Most of her AA is concentrated in the 3.5 ish km bubble so even though it doesn't have enough AA DPS to stop a full attack, it wipes out squadrons with ease after their first run.

Man, putting a secondary build on it make the AA even more ridiculous.

well its a secondary meme CV line, If you dont build for secondarys then why play it, cant wait for the t10 with BFT+auxiliary armament mod 2

 

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Rhein’s AA in reality though is so badly positioned it’s not even funny. All aft or on the starboard side of the island.

Port bow attacks ftw baby!

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20 minutes ago, pepe_trueno said:

well its a secondary meme CV line, If you dont build for secondarys then why play it, cant wait for the t10 with BFT+auxiliary armament mod 2

 

Actually, it's not a secondary meme CV line. Graf Zep is a secondary monster; but the tech tree line isn't. Players who build this way are going to get very frustrated when they are routinely less effective than the red CV  because of a crappy ship/captain build but still don't have good secondaries. 

The tier 4-8 German CVs  have better secondaries than the other CV lines but not by a lot.They use the 105mm guns, which don't have the punch that the Graf Zep's 150mm secondaries have because they don't have penetration..They generally have fewer guns than the Graf Zep does. Parseval has comparable range, but without the same penetration or volume of fire she's not going to come close to GZ's secondary performance. 

The tier 10 has good armor, you can *almost* stealth-fire secondaries with a stealth build, but even with 12 105mm guns per side, she's going to struggle to do direct damage to anything but DDs without using IFHE, which kills your fire chance. 

It *might* be worth investing in AFT and the secondary mod  just to maximize your range, especially since that buffs your AA too, and since you can spare four points for it without hurting your primary CV build. However, a full secondary meme build is going to hurt you since you have to invest so many captain points in it that you won't be able to pick up other skills you need (manual secondaries, BFT, AFT, and IFHE are a total of 15 points, leaving you with only 4 points and no other 3 or 4 point skills available since you need a 1 and 2 point skill.)  And you'll need IFHE to get the most out of the 105mm at tier 8 and 10, but the nerf to your firestarting makes it a sidegrade at best. 

TLDR: the  tech tree CVs are not anywhere near as monstrous as Graf Zep, and the meme secondary build will not be nearly as effective. You'll get your share of secondary kills at low-tier; I got a couple with my Rhein and one with my Weser by brawling in co-op for the missions. But they're not good enough to save you from more than the occasional CV-sniping DD.

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12 hours ago, Axiomaticranger said:

All of the CVs have the best AA, especially at tier 4. This was done to prevent CV vs CV sniping.

Eh, not really. Hosho, Langley, and Hermes rely entirely on their fighters to defend themselves. Their AA DPS is almost nonexistent. I found that if you kept baiting their fighting consumable with your planes (since it activates automatically upon detection), you can actually deplete all their fighter consumables, meaning that you have free reign over the skies to nuke them. So yes technically all the CVs have the best AA, but Rhein is the only CV that does not rely solely on her fighters to shoot down planes.

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34 minutes ago, Admiral_Bingo said:

Eh, not really. Hosho, Langley, and Hermes rely entirely on their fighters to defend themselves. Their AA DPS is almost nonexistent. I found that if you kept baiting their fighting consumable with your planes (since it activates automatically upon detection), you can actually deplete all their fighter consumables, meaning that you have free reign over the skies to nuke them. So yes technically all the CVs have the best AA, but Rhein is the only CV that does not rely solely on her fighters to shoot down planes.

Anti air is anti air.  It doesn't really matter if the damage comes from ship mounted guns, planes that launch themselves or space aliens, it shoots down planes.  CVs have some of the best AA in the game.

If you are wasting a bunch of time baiting out the CV AA planes until they are depleted, you are wasting all manner of time doing damage to the rest of the red team. 

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13 hours ago, WanderingGhost said:

Taking away CV control opened the door for sniping, so they had to make AA stupid powerful to curtail it, which also means CV vs CV is a boring slug match or who has better secondaries. One of many reasons I detest the rework.

really need to buff AA at those tiers for other ships though, ot to that level but more tan what they got now.

The problem with that logic is the other tier 4 carriers have almost no aa. Its all in their fighters. I was taking torps in a hosho just last night. They got bored and gave up, but it is pretty easy to strike through low tier cv strikes. In that same game I was sending strikes through the rhein aa. I was taking loses but still getting damage in. 

I will agree tier 3-5 need SOME kind of aa on their ships. Kaiser has some amount but you need to stack a few kaisers or Wyoming to get full effect.

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10 minutes ago, Burnsy said:

Anti air is anti air.  It doesn't really matter if the damage comes from ship mounted guns, planes that launch themselves or space aliens, it shoots down planes.  CVs have some of the best AA in the game.

If you are wasting a bunch of time baiting out the CV AA planes until they are depleted, you are wasting all manner of time doing damage to the rest of the red team. 

That is true, but keep in mind it doesn't take much to bait out the CV AA planes. The CV only has to be detected in order to get the AA planes launched and that can be achieved by planes or ships either on purpose or inadvertently. I had games where stuff kept messing with my detection (probably planes) but it was not uncommon for me to run out of fighters at the end of a game. This happened several times in my Hosho and Hermes and I had attacks where my fighters were either on cooldown or ran out because I was detected too many times. Now this probably only speaks for tier 4 games where I had a bunch of game where it ended up with a CV vs CV match. 

Yes, I agree that planes are considered anti air but keep in mind that planes take a while to react and aa guns deal immediate damage. Rhein's AA is so ridiculous that you can shoot down a good part of a squadron before the planes arrive. Other tier 4 carriers simply cannot do that with the AA they have. If the attacking squadron is recalled right after the first run, the AA planes then shoot some more planes down.

The difference between Rhein and other tier 4 CVs is that the rest of the tier 4 CVs have garbage AA guns and good fighters while the Rhein has great AA guns AND fighters. So yes, even though tier 4 carriers have good AA, Rhein still has the best AA suite if you include her fighters too. 

 

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26 minutes ago, Admiral_Bingo said:

That is true, but keep in mind it doesn't take much to bait out the CV AA planes. The CV only has to be detected in order to get the AA planes launched and that can be achieved by planes or ships either on purpose or inadvertently. I had games where stuff kept messing with my detection (probably planes) but it was not uncommon for me to run out of fighters at the end of a game. This happened several times in my Hosho and Hermes and I had attacks where my fighters were either on cooldown or ran out because I was detected too many times. Now this probably only speaks for tier 4 games where I had a bunch of game where it ended up with a CV vs CV match. 

Yes, I agree that planes are considered anti air but keep in mind that planes take a while to react and aa guns deal immediate damage. Rhein's AA is so ridiculous that you can shoot down a good part of a squadron before the planes arrive. Other tier 4 carriers simply cannot do that with the AA they have. If the attacking squadron is recalled right after the first run, the AA planes then shoot some more planes down.

The difference between Rhein and other tier 4 CVs is that the rest of the tier 4 CVs have garbage AA guns and good fighters while the Rhein has great AA guns AND fighters. So yes, even though tier 4 carriers have good AA, Rhein still has the best AA suite if you include her fighters too. 

 

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter.  No CV player spends the time trying to sink the red CV, unless it's one of the last ships on the red time.  It's a gigantic waste of damage that is much more valuable, to be used to sink red surface ships.

I have had a few (a very few) red CV players that spend a massive chunk of the game spent solely trying to sink my CV.  I welcome it, please, do so.  By the time they are actually close to sinking me or have done so, I have done all manner of damage to the other ships on their team and the game is basically over.

If the red CV is lit up and in range, your teams ship based guns will send it to the bottom, in a fraction of the time that it will take you to do it. As a CV player, don't bother trying to sink the red CV.  You can do it, but it's a gigantic waste of team and does nothing but hurt your team.

WG made very sure that after the rework, CV vs CV warfare, is a dead mechanic.

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9 minutes ago, Burnsy said:

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter.  No CV player spends the time trying to sink the red CV, unless it's one of the last ships on the red time.  It's a gigantic waste of damage that is much more valuable, to be used to sink red surface ships.

I have had a few (a very few) red CV players that spend a massive chunk of the game spent solely trying to sink my CV.  I welcome it, please, do so.  By the time they are actually close to sinking me or have done so, I have done all manner of damage to the other ships on their team and the game is basically over.

If the red CV is lit up and in range, your teams ship based guns will send it to the bottom, in a fraction of the time that it will take you to do it. As a CV player, don't bother trying to sink the red CV.  You can do it, but it's a gigantic waste of team and does nothing but hurt your team.

WG made very sure that after the rework, CV vs CV warfare, is a dead mechanic.

Yeah for sure, I definitely agree with the above. Its only when for those moments when the CVs are the only ships alive is when the AA comes handy. And surprisingly that happens with tier 4 CVs more than I would expect from my experience. Tier 4 carriers brawling in a secondary match off at the end of a game is not a healthy sign.

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