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MEANN

Happy Thoughts

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Well, it has been a bit since i chimed in with my unwanted opinion. 

It seems that the forums are still ablaze with cv love and hate. 

The primary issue in forum's really falls under the ideology that people have forgotten that you cannot win in an argument. Argument is simply the vehicle that debate and influence moves in. The real object an argument or discussion is to influence, to get an individual to see a different perspective or point of view. If you go out with the objective of changing someone's mind or belief, it's a fool's errand. You can only help someone see the truth. The truth however can be subject to the perspective of the individual experiencing it. I would encourage people to to see a different perspective versus attempting to influence someone's belief. Because if you can influence their perspective or permit them to see the particular topic from their vantage point you then allow for the other person to come to a similar conclusion as you. The truth is fact-based and is always the truth. However our lens that we view the world through is tainted by our life experience, the books we choose to read, the people we choose to listen to, this lens is what frames our reality. That reality is true in the context of how we experience the world around us. It doesn't change the truth, the  lens that you're viewing  the cv debate with in the context of this post. Or any post in which are you arguing with someone. If you first adopt the idea that you will attempt to understand the perspective of the current poster, it will allow you the ability to share ideas in The pursuit of Truth on both sides of the particular topic. And sometimes the topic is very personal, and that lens will have a incredible amount of influence on their vantage point of any experience in the game. Perhaps when after a very unpleasant experience in a match with a cv player. They move that experience to the forums. Maybe. Seeking to understand vs argue would be a better course of action. 

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Could you take off the italics if possible? just hard to read it for some reason. 

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11 minutes ago, Ensign_Pulver_2016 said:

"Seek first to understand."

Steven Covey

i will look that up as i have not read him before, thanks

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It's especially true that "no one wins an argument" when neither party doing the arguing actually has the power to implement change. 

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15 minutes ago, Merc_R_Us said:

Could you take off the italics if possible? just hard to read it for some reason. 

done

 

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43 minutes ago, Ensign_Pulver_2016 said:

"Seek first to understand."

Steven Covey

"THEN hit them with that big stick!"

Teddy Roosevelt

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1 hour ago, Umikami said:

"THEN hit them with that big stick!"

Teddy Roosevelt

Admiral Fisher: Hit first, hit hard, and keep hitting

I like Admiral Fisher's sayings. One of my favorites is "Hit first, hit hard, and keep hitting". He was a believer in the idea that "A good offense is a good defense". That idea provides part of the rationale for the battlecruiser.

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2 hours ago, MEANN said:

you cannot win in an argument.

Sure you can. That's why we have debate stages. And as long as I 'feel' like I won the argument, that counts for something.

2 hours ago, MEANN said:

The truth is fact-based and is always the truth.

I can make a case against almost any 'fact' that someone wants to bring up. Lawyers who are good at it make big money.

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1 minute ago, z9_ said:

Sure you can. That's why we have debate stages. And as long as I 'feel' like I won the argument, that counts for something.

I can make a case against almost any 'fact' that someone wants to bring up. Lawyers who are good at it make big money.

  2 hours ago, MEANN said:

you cannot win in an argument.

!Sure you can. That's why we have debate stages. And as long as I 'feel' like I won the argument, that counts for something."

I disagree. (argument never ends)! How you feel is immaterial to winning. in order to win both sides have to come to a consensus and agree that your presentation is the correct perspective. how you feel about the interaction has nothing to do with the outcome of the debate.  

"I can make a case against almost any 'fact' that someone wants to bring up. Lawyers who are good at it make big money." 

Your own words confirm the fact that an argument is not a winnable event.

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There is a difference between winning an argument, and influencing someone's belief.

You can win an argument by getting votes from the debate audience, likes on social media,
or a roar from the crowd in a street argument.

To influence someone's belief requires an extended amount of time, and could easily require
weeks of personal interaction, with sometimes having the outcome of never swaying them.

12 minutes ago, MEANN said:

How you feel is immaterial to winning

This is a definition that 'you' have created.
How someone feels is important in a lot of aspects.
If you wish to delve into the complexities of what winning is, I recommend you talk to women.
They have an entirely different viewpoint of what winning means.

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3 minutes ago, z9_ said:

There is a difference between winning an argument, and influencing someone's belief.

You can win an argument by getting votes from the debate audience, likes on social media,
or a roar from the crowd in a street argument.

To influence someone's belief requires an extended amount of time, and could easily require
weeks of personal interaction, with sometimes having the outcome of never swaying them.

This is a definition that 'you' have created.
How someone feels is important in a lot of aspects.
If you wish to delve into the complexities of what winning is, I recommend you talk to women.
They have an entirely different viewpoint of what winning means.

the last line made me laugh! 

understand women argue not for right and wrong, but for irritation and duration. they want to punish you for the idea of arguing with them  

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The whole CV argument will never go away.

Skill of player vs enemy CV skill.

Individual ship AA 

Group AA 

Individual CV differences.

.....

With so many variables it will never come down to everything but skill is balanced.

A good CV player will constantly make players hate carriers, while terrible CV players will make players hate CV players.

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3 hours ago, MEANN said:

Well, it has been a bit since i chimed in with my unwanted opinion. 

It seems that the forums are still ablaze with cv love and hate. 

The primary issue in forum's really falls under the ideology that people have forgotten that you cannot win in an argument. Argument is simply the vehicle that debate and influence moves in. The real object an argument or discussion is to influence, to get an individual to see a different perspective or point of view. If you go out with the objective of changing someone's mind or belief, it's a fool's errand. You can only help someone see the truth. The truth however can be subject to the perspective of the individual experiencing it. I would encourage people to to see a different perspective versus attempting to influence someone's belief. Because if you can influence their perspective or permit them to see the particular topic from their vantage point you then allow for the other person to come to a similar conclusion as you. The truth is fact-based and is always the truth. However our lens that we view the world through is tainted by our life experience, the books we choose to read, the people we choose to listen to, this lens is what frames our reality. That reality is true in the context of how we experience the world around us. It doesn't change the truth, the  lens that you're viewing  the cv debate with in the context of this post. Or any post in which are you arguing with someone. If you first adopt the idea that you will attempt to understand the perspective of the current poster, it will allow you the ability to share ideas in The pursuit of Truth on both sides of the particular topic. And sometimes the topic is very personal, and that lens will have a incredible amount of influence on their vantage point of any experience in the game. Perhaps when after a very unpleasant experience in a match with a cv player. They move that experience to the forums. Maybe. Seeking to understand vs argue would be a better course of action. 

That was very bold of you.

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Are you having an argument or are you presenting an argument?  They are two different things.  The first is a heated discussion about opposing views.  The second is a presenting of thoughts in an attempt to persuade others.  Most people go into an argument with one thought in mind, to persuade the others that their thought is the only correct one.  The proper way to go into an argument is to present your thoughts in an attempt to persuade others, but to be open to their thoughts as a counter argument.  If both parties have open minds, then a lot can be accomplished.  I have had many good discussions with others where we both had opposing points of views.  I have influenced others to think more towards my way, and I have had others provide compelling arguments that caused me to change my view.  It is quite enlightening to admit there are better ideas out there.  It allows others to see you as a reasonable and professional person that has objective points of views that aren't set in stone no matter what evidence is presented.

As a summary, some argue to win while others argue to teach and learn.

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1 hour ago, Murcc said:

Are you having an argument or are you presenting an argument?  They are two different things.  The first is a heated discussion about opposing views.  The second is a presenting of thoughts in an attempt to persuade others.  Most people go into an argument with one thought in mind, to persuade the others that their thought is the only correct one.  The proper way to go into an argument is to present your thoughts in an attempt to persuade others, but to be open to their thoughts as a counter argument.  If both parties have open minds, then a lot can be accomplished.  I have had many good discussions with others where we both had opposing points of views.  I have influenced others to think more towards my way, and I have had others provide compelling arguments that caused me to change my view.  It is quite enlightening to admit there are better ideas out there.  It allows others to see you as a reasonable and professional person that has objective points of views that aren't set in stone no matter what evidence is presented.

As a summary, some argue to win while others argue to teach and learn.

if only that were true about the cv debate.lol

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Nice thread, missed it yesterday. Never ceases to amaze me how people find rationality boring and prefer the "joy of being irrational". Lets bump this to the front page.

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18 hours ago, MEANN said:

Well, it has been a bit since i chimed in with my unwanted opinion. 

It seems that the forums are still ablaze with cv love and hate. 

The primary issue in forum's really falls under the ideology that people have forgotten that you cannot win in an argument. Argument is simply the vehicle that debate and influence moves in. The real object an argument or discussion is to influence, to get an individual to see a different perspective or point of view. If you go out with the objective of changing someone's mind or belief, it's a fool's errand. You can only help someone see the truth. The truth however can be subject to the perspective of the individual experiencing it. I would encourage people to to see a different perspective versus attempting to influence someone's belief. Because if you can influence their perspective or permit them to see the particular topic from their vantage point you then allow for the other person to come to a similar conclusion as you. The truth is fact-based and is always the truth. However our lens that we view the world through is tainted by our life experience, the books we choose to read, the people we choose to listen to, this lens is what frames our reality. That reality is true in the context of how we experience the world around us. It doesn't change the truth, the  lens that you're viewing  the cv debate with in the context of this post. Or any post in which are you arguing with someone. If you first adopt the idea that you will attempt to understand the perspective of the current poster, it will allow you the ability to share ideas in The pursuit of Truth on both sides of the particular topic. And sometimes the topic is very personal, and that lens will have a incredible amount of influence on their vantage point of any experience in the game. Perhaps when after a very unpleasant experience in a match with a cv player. They move that experience to the forums. Maybe. Seeking to understand vs argue would be a better course of action. 

Warhammer 40k Memes | Page 437 | Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade ...

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22 hours ago, Ensign_Pulver_2016 said:

Steven Covey

There was one who was very good at separating people from their money.

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6 hours ago, ArIskandir said:

Nice thread, missed it yesterday. Never ceases to amaze me how people find rationality boring and prefer the "joy of being irrational". Lets bump this to the front page.

people only like it when they are agreed with

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