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Zaydin

Enough with the overpowered fake Russian ships

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Enough with overpowered fake Russian ships, WG. Nerf the Petro. Nerf the Kremlin. Nerf the Stalingrad. Nerf the Smolensk (thickening it's armor would ironically probably amount to a nerf since it would remove its troll armor scheme).

The Petro has absurd AP penetration values; read that the Russian 220mm guns have the same penetration ability as German 380mm guns. Nothing absurd about that, right?

Main defense I saw people making of the Petros OP AP was 'well, if you angle it's useless'. That same argument applies to most AP shells in the game. A weakness shared by every ship is not a specific weakness of something like the Petro.

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nerf cv at the same time as they are clearly broken.

petro is a nerfed moskva once it cant use its AP it has tier 6 h.e dpm its bad and then add on top the wonky dispersion at range plus gimped radar its really just a 1 trick moskva.

take a step back and have a look without your RusHaN BiaS glasses on.

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2 minutes ago, ITZ_ACE_BABY said:

nerf cv at the same time as they are clearly broken.

petro is a nerfed moskva once it cant use its AP it has tier 6 h.e dpm its bad and then add on top the wonky dispersion at range plus gimped radar its really just a 1 trick moskva.

take a step back and have a look without your RusHaN BiaS glasses on.

CVs are enjoyable if you try them. Changes are coming too.

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2 minutes ago, Sumseaman said:

CVs are enjoyable if you try them. Changes are coming too.

well i have about 750 cv games at super unicum level so i kind of know cv pretty well.

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6 minutes ago, ITZ_ACE_BABY said:

nerf cv at the same time as they are clearly broken.

petro is a nerfed moskva once it cant use its AP it has tier 6 h.e dpm its bad and then add on top the wonky dispersion at range plus gimped radar its really just a 1 trick moskva.

take a step back and have a look without your RusHaN BiaS glasses on.

"IT's bad because it's AP shells are weak against angled targets" isn't a weakness specific to the Petro. It's shared by every ship that carries AP shells! Nothing absurd about a Petro scoring 9k AP hits from 16km against a GK, right?

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2 hours ago, Zaydin said:

Enough with overpowered fake Russian ships, WG. Nerf the Petro. Nerf the Kremlin. Nerf the Stalingrad. Nerf the Smolensk (thickening it's armor would ironically probably amount to a nerf since it would remove its troll armor scheme).

The Petro has absurd AP penetration values; read that the Russian 220mm guns have the same penetration ability as German 380mm guns. Nothing absurd about that, right?

Main defense I saw people making of the Petros OP AP was 'well, if you angle it's useless'. That same argument applies to most AP shells in the game. A weakness shared by every ship is not a specific weakness of something like the Petro.

Petro and Stalingrad are garbage

Smolensk is a worse Worcester

Kremlin has received so many nerfs its a meme at this point.

 

Meanwhile USN ships are actually overpowered and WG can not nerf them because the USN boomers will cry to no end.

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2 hours ago, Zaydin said:

Nothing absurd about a Petro scoring 9k AP hits from 16km against a GK, right?

That's nothing I haven't been doing with Hindenburg for years.

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Kremlin is too the point she need only move forward a bit at the start and tank, tank, tank. It seems to take an inordinate amount of time to get her moving. Maybe they can buff her in that area? 

She's at a decent point right now... I like her so she must be right at the edge of OP? Her health pool is rather amazing. 

Of all the RU ships, I despise the Smole the most. Honestly, in my biased opinion on this subject, the Smole is beyond OP. She's an absolute, out of control ship design that needs a lot more random, internal explosions causing unexpected detonations. 

If my opinion counted, I'd also say we should be expecting a new tier within the next year, for ships of the more modern era. Imagine if tiers related to periods in history... 

I figure they have to go to new modes/eras or else the game will lose all semblance of RL  ships. I don't think they can bake any more cakes in this oven, it's already full. 

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4 hours ago, Zaydin said:

"IT's bad because it's AP shells are weak against angled targets" isn't a weakness specific to the Petro. It's shared by every ship that carries AP shells!

It is a notable weakness when you take into consideration her alternatives.

Petro does not have the HE performance to compensate in such scenarios. If say a Moskva faces an angled target, she can resort to her HE and still do decently. Petro however has about the worst HE performance you can get from a T10 cruiser except maybe Minotaur or Venezia (duh), combining bad firesetting capabilities with bad dpm, and her damage output nosedives to the point where you would wish to be any other T10 cruiser.

Spoiler

Not kidding about that btw, here is the HE performance of T10 Tech Tree cruisers in comparison, no upgrades or modules except IFHE where obviously required:

  HE dpm HE pen Fires/minute
Petro 126.7k 37mm 5.8
Moskva 162.5k 37mm 8.9
A. Nevsky* 200k 37mm 5.2
Des Moines 274.9k 34mm 13.7
Worcester* 344.3k 37mm 9.4
Zao 180k 34mm 10.1
Henri** 141.2k 40mm 9.1
Hindenburg 183.7k 51mm 9.6

* including IFHE as it's basically mandatory
** excluding MBRB, so practical values will be noticably higher

Note how Petro lags behind every other cruiser except for fires against Nevsky. The HE pen over 203mm armed cruisers is irrelevant since there is to my knowledge no plating in the 35-37mm range (USN BBs have 38mm, such a shame~). The closest one to her HE dpm can catapult herself to way higher values at the press of a button, so realistically speaking the next closest would be Moskva with ~35k HE dpm difference, or if you prefer relative numbers, 28% more HE dpm.

When your competition can compensate for a weakness far better than you can, this weakness hurts you far more than the others. That is what this angling argument is about. And it very much holds true, both from the standpoint of game mechanics as well as from my experience when playing her.

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The incidence of OP Russian paper ships does seem that much higher than other lines, but not enough to get too worked up about. The over abundance of Russian ships relative to other nations in competitive is a bit disappointing.

 

I personally find it more annoying that the Russians are at 62 ships in the game, of which 37 are paper, while the RN is at only 53 of which 11 are paper, the Italians have but a single line, the Dutch and Spanish have barely a ship.

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You realize that you will get what you want right?

How this game works/makes money from us. 

Step 1. Release clearly OP ship.

Step 2. Let ship run around for a bit and gather data. Meanwhile people spend money to get said ship.

Step 3. Once money stream stops going BRRRRRRR release nurfs to said ship.

Step 4. Release new OP ship, repeat process.

----

Most of the people going on about OP stuff don't realize this has been WG's strategy for years and years and years. 

*look at my right hand, you wont see what the left one is doing*

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7 hours ago, Zaydin said:

"IT's bad because it's AP shells are weak against angled targets" isn't a weakness specific to the Petro. It's shared by every ship that carries AP shells! Nothing absurd about a Petro scoring 9k AP hits from 16km against a GK, right?

You can angle against all AP, but if a ship angles against you there are three things you can do:

You can switch to HE. Petropavlovsk has the worst HE at tier 10 including battleships, so if you do that it's just bad.

You can shoot parts of the ship that you overmatch. Petropavlovsk doesn't overmatch anything so this is moot.

You can shoot AP at the superstructure and hope for some pen damage, like a Minotaur would. But Petropavlovsk has nowhere near Minotaur dpm (its AP dpm isn't even that good for a heavy cruiser), it doesn't have the UK fuse timer that lets Minotaur AP get full pens on superstructure, and it doesn't overmatch the superstructure like super cruisers or BBs.

 

9k AP salvos at 16 km on a GK aren't unusual, the GK upper belt is easy to full pen with cruiser AP. A Moskva does that with no problem at all, on a faster reload.

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Fake, Russian, overpowered... 

Well, you got 2/3 right, they are fake and Russian. 

There aren't any real OP lines or nations in this game, most of it is confirmation bias and cherry-picked stats.  

Edited by KilljoyCutter

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8 hours ago, Zaydin said:

Enough with overpowered fake Russian ships, WG. Nerf the Petro. Nerf the Kremlin. Nerf the Stalingrad. Nerf the Smolensk (thickening it's armor would ironically probably amount to a nerf since it would remove its troll armor scheme).

The Petro has absurd AP penetration values; read that the Russian 220mm guns have the same penetration ability as German 380mm guns. Nothing absurd about that, right?

Main defense I saw people making of the Petros OP AP was 'well, if you angle it's useless'. That same argument applies to most AP shells in the game. A weakness shared by every ship is not a specific weakness of something like the Petro.

Yeah I love that absurd justification argument for all soviet ships : 'buuuut if you angle or are broadside you get deleted quickly!' ... which is 100% true for ANY ship in the game regardless ...and even then the soviet ships have it NOWHERE near as bad as IJN ships with their hate-coded gigantic citadels that practically reach the deck and can be cit'd even from extremely acute angles. Soviet ships have to be hit when near flat 90 degrees broadside to you or the AP shells get bounced off... because MAGIC. 

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8 hours ago, Zaydin said:

"IT's bad because it's AP shells are weak against angled targets" isn't a weakness specific to the Petro. It's shared by every ship that carries AP shells! Nothing absurd about a Petro scoring 9k AP hits from 16km against a GK, right?

so there's nothing absurd about every other T10 heavy cruiser being able to do the same thing at the same range (save Nevesky but more through lack of alpha strike than lack of pen) 

And the only Russian ships that you can really say are OP and by far the best choice at their tier is probably Gremy, Nicolai, and Sinop. Everything else either isn't as OP as most people think (Stalin) or another non-Russian ship exists at that tier just as busted or better (Peter the Great and OR have to deal with Cesar at T5, Izmail is close with Warspite as top of T6 BBs and Thunderer is a similar concept to Champagne and Slava, OP snipers and poor game design, yet no one talks about Thunderer being OP.)

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4 hours ago, SireneRacker said:

It is a notable weakness when you take into consideration her alternatives.

Petro does not have the HE performance to compensate in such scenarios. If say a Moskva faces an angled target, she can resort to her HE and still do decently. Petro however has about the worst HE performance you can get from a T10 cruiser except maybe Minotaur or Venezia (duh), combining bad firesetting capabilities with bad dpm, and her damage output nosedives to the point where you would wish to be any other T10 cruiser.

  Reveal hidden contents

Not kidding about that btw, here is the HE performance of T10 Tech Tree cruisers in comparison, no upgrades or modules except IFHE where obviously required:

  HE dpm HE pen Fires/minute
Petro 126.7k 37mm 5.8
Moskva 162.5k 37mm 8.9
A. Nevsky* 200k 37mm 5.2
Des Moines 274.9k 34mm 13.7
Worcester* 344.3k 37mm 9.4
Zao 180k 34mm 10.1
Henri** 141.2k 40mm 9.1
Hindenburg 183.7k 51mm 9.6

* including IFHE as it's basically mandatory
** excluding MBRB, so practical values will be noticably higher

Note how Petro lags behind every other cruiser except for fires against Nevsky. The HE pen over 203mm armed cruisers is irrelevant since there is to my knowledge no plating in the 35-37mm range (USN BBs have 38mm, such a shame~). The closest one to her HE dpm can catapult herself to way higher values at the press of a button, so realistically speaking the next closest would be Moskva with ~35k HE dpm difference, or if you prefer relative numbers, 28% more HE dpm.

When your competition can compensate for a weakness far better than you can, this weakness hurts you far more than the others. That is what this angling argument is about. And it very much holds true, both from the standpoint of game mechanics as well as from my experience when playing her.

Not to mention it also has worse dispersion than "standard" cruisers, which further eats into its effective damage output as it loses effectiveness at longer ranges.  On top of that the strength of the AP is largely concentrated on its penetration and auto bounce angles which are more situational than raw alpha or DPM.  For instance, against a broadside cruiser at close range the extra pen, auto bounce angles, and muzzle velocity is really just overkill, and guns with superior alpha (like the Zao) or superior DPM (like the Des Moines) would still perform better....and at longer ranges the dispersion starts to become an increased factor while there are other ships, like the Moskva, that are still capable of citadeling most cruisers out to max range.  

The one area where the Petropavlovsk's guns are truly in a league of their own (not including CBs) is against broadside BBs at close to medium range.

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9 hours ago, ITZ_ACE_BABY said:

nerf cv at the same time as they are clearly broken.

petro is a nerfed moskva once it cant use its AP it has tier 6 h.e dpm its bad and then add on top the wonky dispersion at range plus gimped radar its really just a 1 trick moskva.

take a step back and have a look without your RusHaN BiaS glasses on.

Wen I see a Petro-plappy in my Moskva I turn around, go silent, whatever it takes. They take 25K at a time from Moskva, and a Stalingrad has taken 50K once at high AP angle. My Moskva 220 AP shells do not even closely equal the penetration power and fuse-arm times of the new shells. 

Edited by Ericson38

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*double post*

Edited by yashma

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1 hour ago, WernerHerzdog said:

You can angle against all AP, but if a ship angles against you there are three things you can do:

You can switch to HE. Petropavlovsk has the worst HE at tier 10 including battleships, so if you do that it's just bad.

You can shoot parts of the ship that you overmatch. Petropavlovsk doesn't overmatch anything so this is moot.

You can shoot AP at the superstructure and hope for some pen damage, like a Minotaur would. But Petropavlovsk has nowhere near Minotaur dpm (its AP dpm isn't even that good for a heavy cruiser), it doesn't have the UK fuse timer that lets Minotaur AP get full pens on superstructure, and it doesn't overmatch the superstructure like super cruisers or BBs.

 

9k AP salvos at 16 km on a GK aren't unusual, the GK upper belt is easy to full pen with cruiser AP. A Moskva does that with no problem at all, on a faster reload.

No Moskva doesn't do that with no problem with a faster reload or any reload.

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41 minutes ago, Ericson38 said:

No Moskva doesn't do that with no problem with a faster reload or any reload.

The Moskva has 242mm of AP pen at 21km.  It will pen the 150mm upper belt of the Kurfurst if it hits it....

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26 minutes ago, Ericson38 said:

Wen I see a Petro-plappy in my Moskva I turn around, go silent, whatever it takes. They take 25K at a time from Moskva, and a Stalingrad has taken 50K once at high AP angle. My Moskva 220 AP shells do not even closely equal the penetration power and fuse-arm times of the new shells. 

The only way a Petropavlovsk or Stalingrad will do that much damage on a Moskva is if you broadside them. Maybe try angling?

Penetration and arming time are basically irrelevant shooting at a Moskva, since it has a flat 155 mm belt and it's wide enough that nothing will overpen the citadel.

21 minutes ago, Ericson38 said:

No Moskva doesn't do that with no problem with a faster reload or any reload.

The GK has a 150 mm upper belt and large 120 mm bow and stern sections at the waterline. Those are enough to arm AP, and any tier 10 heavy cruiser has enough penetration for 150 mm at 16 km.

Here's Moskva AP on a broadside GK for 10.7k. The main thing limiting your damage is getting the shells to hit the upper belt instead of overpenning superstructure (the previous salvo was only 8k because of superstructure overpens) but Petropavlovsk will have an even harder time with that since it has worse dispersion.

image.thumb.png.5a56a3902d06ed034243ebe97a7252c6.png

Zao AP for 10.5k:

image.thumb.png.c490a3117f22326da6650895882efed2.png

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10 hours ago, Zaydin said:

Enough with overpowered fake Russian ships, WG. Nerf the Petro. Nerf the Kremlin. Nerf the Stalingrad. Nerf the Smolensk (thickening it's armor would ironically probably amount to a nerf since it would remove its troll armor scheme).

The Petro has absurd AP penetration values; read that the Russian 220mm guns have the same penetration ability as German 380mm guns. Nothing absurd about that, right?

Main defense I saw people making of the Petros OP AP was 'well, if you angle it's useless'. That same argument applies to most AP shells in the game. A weakness shared by every ship is not a specific weakness of something like the Petro.

Within reasonable bounds, a higher velocity, smaller caliber AP round of a given density can, at least theoretically, have higher penetrating performance than a lower velocity, larger caliber AP round of the same density.  So, no; the idea isn't totally absurd.

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1 hour ago, WernerHerzdog said:

The only way a Petropavlovsk or Stalingrad will do that much damage on a Moskva is if you broadside them. Maybe try angling?

 

We were pointed in the same direction  (parallel tracks), him in front, about 45 degree impacts off the long axis. I posted this in another thread also. It was incredible.

Edited by Ericson38

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6 minutes ago, Ericson38 said:

We are parallel, him in front, about 45 degree impacts off the long axis. I posted this in another thread also. It was incredible.

At a 45° angle Moskva's 155mm belt is worth around 220mm of armor, give or take. At all ranges for which the fitting tool provides armor penetration data Moskva could poke into the citadel. Just keep in mind that you do not aim for the waterline, but for the exposed citadel belt. Otherwise you would just make your life more difficult.

image.thumb.png.2ec7398bd70511790242acbc0fa70618.png

You should look into angling more in any case. Moskva has the turret angles to get a 60° angle going, and between the reloads you can sharpen that to 70° or more and not have to fear overmatch because Petro won't overmatch your bow. Defeat the shells through bouncing, that's what you should rely on. Not raw armor values.

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28 minutes ago, SireneRacker said:

At a 45° angle Moskva's 155mm belt is worth around 220mm of armor, give or take. At all ranges for which the fitting tool provides armor penetration data Moskva could poke into the citadel.

 

44 minutes ago, Ericson38 said:

We were pointed in the same direction  (parallel tracks), him in front, about 45 degree impacts off the long axis. I posted this in another thread also. It was incredible.

I don't think Moskva has the same auto bounce angles as Petro, so that might have actually been the difference here. Above 45 degree up to 60 degree (0 being flat broadside) Moskva AP starts has increasing chances of just auto-ricocheting without penetration test (if I understood the mechanism correctly) whereas for Petro these angles are 50 - 65 degrees. Therefore, Petro can pen ships at better angles than Moskva making angling against it harder.

For reference, the one thing US CAs have going for their AP, especially Des Moines with that insane DPM, are the very good auto-bounce angles: 60-67.5 degrees. This allows them to get shots in with AP other cruisers might not, despite their average penetration values.

Stalingrad has 55-65 degrees and should therefore be better than Petro in that regard.

I think the combination of just extreme shell velocity, pen, and good angles make Petro AP so scary at times. Knowing the limitations of this however it can be largely mitigated by proper angling, if possible.

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