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Herr_Reitz

Balance changes

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Rocket's aiming reticle turned by 90 degrees, and now it is elongated horizontally. 

Yes, this is from the https://blog.worldofwarships.com/blog/51 entry posted a bit back. I fully admit having to read this a number of times.

You see, this is the justification for changing the aiming reticle to horizontal. 

Quote

... will let destroyers to adhere to the same tactics to dodge attack aircraft

If this isn't the most backward way of thinking and explaining something, I don't know what would be a better example. 

They are changing a carrier's aiming reticle so destroyers can use their same tactics to dodge attack aircraft? Ponder on this in amazement. 

I have. I'm bedazzled. 

Poor DDs, need to have aiming reticles changed so they can use the same tactics for all attack aircraft. Now of course, this won't be enough of a further handicap to carriers. 

Of course I've been insisting for a few weeks the cruisers really should be killing DDs, carriers doing it only as a last resort. 

Here's a thought - LIMIT DDS TO THREE MAX per team at any tier. Gives them a bit more room to fan out .Tied to your reduction (future) of DD by carrier aircraft by another, what, fifty percent, why those nasty old CV's won't hardly pester DDs again. 

Cruisers. Cruisers will become the new DD killers. Which of course, is what they should have been all along. Thing is, carriers have been so effective (other than me) at swatting DDs since the rewrite, cruisers moved to battleships and carriers. If you snip the carrier's abilities far enough, they'll abandon the target and find the next best targets - cruisers, then bbs and finally carriers. Cruisers will of course, move DDs back on the menu as their prime meals. 

So in a round-about way, you're doing me a favor, because you are promoting what I've been preaching the past few weeks. 

DDs are cruiser targets, not carrier targets. tia cya

 

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Actually it isn't backward because currently Tiny Tim's have a different pattern which requires a different maneuver to dodge. By making all rocket patterns the same they don't have to guess what kind of rocket is coming.

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1 hour ago, Herr_Reitz said:

They are changing a carrier's aiming reticle so destroyers can use their same tactics to dodge attack aircraft? Ponder on this in amazement. 

I have. I'm bedazzled. 

Poor DDs, need to have aiming reticles changed so they can use the same tactics for all attack aircraft. Now of course, this won't be enough of a further handicap to carriers. 

What's so hard to understand? There ought to be consistency in rocket attacks considering they can take half of a DD's hp in one successful pass. There's consistency with torpedo plane approaches as well as bombers, why should attack aircraft be any different?

Are you saying that CVs are useless now against them? Just because you don't know how to aim with a horizontal ellipses doesn't mean you can't learn. Besides, planes can still spot DDs allowing them to be focused by other ships even if you can't finish the job.

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2 hours ago, Herr_Reitz said:

Poor DDs, need to have aiming reticles changed so they can use the same tactics for all attack aircraft. Now of course, this won't be enough of a further handicap to carriers.

Personally, I liked that each CV line had its own quirks worth remembering so you could try to outplay as appropriate.  That being said, many in this game have either not tried carriers or tried them and found the gameplay to be too different from their expectation and stopped.

If Wargaming has found that a significant number of the playerbase are not getting the concepts about the different lines from the game experience, then they either have to try to make the gameplay itself scream loudly what the mechanic is as it's happening (which would be remarkably hard in this game, I feel)... or just try to homogenize basic mechanics to allow for a more easily understandable knowledge download.  This is the latter, and removes flavor from the game, but if it allows better player to player interaction based on the surface ship knowing what to expect and plan for... then it makes for a better game.

All the shots in this game are "skillshots" (player aimed predictive fire).  While torpedoes have a white line indicator, playerskill still factors whether to use the line, lead the line, or ignore the line completely.  CVs have (I believe) the most consistent Shoot -> Hit, which is why the damage is fairly low and infrequent (one or two passes then fly back to resume firing).

In general, you want some choice in the skillshot situation both from the shooter and the target.  In many cases, you're going to get hurt some amount, but you can decide how you want to take the hurt at least.

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If Monty can balance a witch and a duck.

 

WG should be able to balance CVs in their game

 

 

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7 hours ago, BrushWolf said:

Actually it isn't backward because currently Tiny Tim's have a different pattern which requires a different maneuver to dodge. By making all rocket patterns the same they don't have to guess what kind of rocket is coming.

Fair enough.

But changing the recticle orientation is just avoiding dealing with the main issue altogether.....the power of the rocket strike on the DD.  Twist the recticle all you want, but if the CV lines it up right, at least 1/3 of your health is toast in one pass.

Wish they would have considered only allowing a certain percentage of rocket damage to be dealt to DDs, just like battleship AP is limited on its impact against them.

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5 hours ago, Ahskance said:

Personally, I liked that each CV line had its own quirks worth remembering so you could try to outplay as appropriate.  That being said, many in this game have either not tried carriers or tried them and found the gameplay to be too different from their expectation and stopped.

I too enjoy(ed) the quirks worth remembering. The plane types each have a unique symbol in game to help in differentiating them. Add to that the national quirk. Apparently, "Know Thy Enemy" is too much for carriers but just a-okay with all other ship type/class. 

Wonder if there's gonna be a huge cry out from carrier players when this hits, tied to the reduced visibility, I really do think targeting will shift away from DDs until they are absolutely the main target. 

Add to this mixture the increased AA(A) for USN destroyers and who knows what else they are changing, it seems inevitable DDs will fall back to the realm of carriers. 

 

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42 minutes ago, Herr_Reitz said:

I too enjoy(ed) the quirks worth remembering. The plane types each have a unique symbol in game to help in differentiating them. Add to that the national quirk. Apparently, "Know Thy Enemy" is too much for carriers but just a-okay with all other ship type/class. 

Wonder if there's gonna be a huge cry out from carrier players when this hits, tied to the reduced visibility, I really do think targeting will shift away from DDs until they are absolutely the main target. 

Add to this mixture the increased AA(A) for USN destroyers and who knows what else they are changing, it seems inevitable DDs will fall back to the realm of carriers. 

 

To DDs that learn to keep their AA off, DDs will become nearly invisible to CVs.  If the CV wants to harry them, they'll have to drop a fighter consumable which will stay in spotting range of the DD for one or two passes at most.

While the CV can update the DD's location on the map, it's going to come down to surface ships to hard spot them so CVs can help.

Well, except to the 20 sec detection spot linger from DDs that forget to turn off their AA.

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4 hours ago, Ahskance said:

To DDs that learn to keep their AA off, DDs will become nearly invisible to CVs.  If the CV wants to harry them, they'll have to drop a fighter consumable which will stay in spotting range of the DD for one or two passes at most.

While the CV can update the DD's location on the map, it's going to come down to surface ships to hard spot them so CVs can help.

Well, except to the 20 sec detection spot linger from DDs that forget to turn off their AA.

With AA off and not firing their guns they are nearly invisible now. At least for the faster monoplanes which can't keep them spotted while turning around for their attack. What I am waiting for is the DD players still blaming the CV for spotting them when it is other ships.

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5 hours ago, Ahskance said:

To DDs that learn to keep their AA off, DDs will become nearly invisible to CVs.  If the CV wants to harry them, they'll have to drop a fighter consumable which will stay in spotting range of the DD for one or two passes at most.

While the CV can update the DD's location on the map, it's going to come down to surface ships to hard spot them so CVs can help.

Well, except to the 20 sec detection spot linger from DDs that forget to turn off their AA.

I maintain that while this is a buff for the average destroyer, it's a serious nerf to AA destroyers.

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47 minutes ago, RainbowFartingUnicorn said:

I maintain that while this is a buff for the average destroyer, it's a serious nerf to AA destroyers.

I don't necessarily agree.  To my mind, AA-focused DDs are designed to operate with other ships.  It would be different if they were alone, but why would an AA destroyer waste their potential just derping around away from teammates they could be supporting with fires/floods/damage cons and incredible AA.

I think of them as playing the flycatcher role of "Surprise Mutha-trucka"ing planes that have gotten too close to line a shot on the DD, but are too far to comfortably just eat the plane losses on the way to their intended target.

Once the AA is lit up, the DD is lit... which is exactly what happens on live.  Many Hallands will keep their AA running well past their aerial detection for the obnoxious levels of flak that make the retreating planes have to bob and weave.  Some will cut the AA early and the 20 second "shot penalty" will keep them lit after the change... but if they're playing with other ships that have their AA left on the planes aren't going to be able to reasonably hover the DD. 

Once the planes leave AA range, the DD goes dark.

Edited by Ahskance

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1 hour ago, Ahskance said:

I don't necessarily agree.  To my mind, AA-focused DDs are designed to operate with other ships.  It would be different if they were alone, but why would an AA destroyer waste their potential just derping around away from teammates they could be supporting with fires/floods/damage cons and incredible AA.

I think of them as playing the flycatcher role of "Surprise Mutha-trucka"ing planes that have gotten too close to line a shot on the DD, but are too far to comfortably just eat the plane losses on the way to their intended target.

Once the AA is lit up, the DD is lit... which is exactly what happens on live.  Many Hallands will keep their AA running well past their aerial detection for the obnoxious levels of flak that make the retreating planes have to bob and weave.  Some will cut the AA early and the 20 second "shot penalty" will keep them lit after the change... but if they're playing with other ships that have their AA left on the planes aren't going to be able to reasonably hover the DD. 

Once the planes leave AA range, the DD goes dark.

It's limiting to AA destroyers because it forces them to either play like non-AA destroyers, turning off their AA and relying on their now-improved stealth while lone wolfing... or to stay with other ships for mutual AA defense. But that is also  what non-AA destroyers have to do in a CV-heavy environment. So now you have erstwhile AA destroyers that play identically to non-AA destroyers. But the AA destroyers all have tradeoffs for their relative AA power - the pan-Swedish ships have no smoke, Kidd loses Fletcher's second torpedo launcher, Friesland doesn't get torpedoes at all... and now they're chained to the main fleet as supporting AA only? I think that's a nerf. I am probably hyper-sensitive to this change because there's a near total overlap between "RFU's favorite ships" and "Ships negatively impacted by this AA change."

Edited by RainbowFartingUnicorn

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3 minutes ago, RainbowFartingUnicorn said:

It's limiting to AA destroyers because it forces them to either play like non-AA destroyers, turning off their AA and relying on their now-improved stealth while lone wolfing... or to stay with other ships for mutual AA defense. But that is also  what non-AA destroyers have to do in a CV-heavy environment. So now you have erstwhile AA destroyers that play identically to non-AA destroyers. But the AA destroyers all have tradeoffs for their relative AA power - the pan-Swedish ships have no smoke, Kidd loses Fletcher's second torpedo launcher, Friesland doesn't get torpedoes at all... and now they're chained to the main fleet as supporting AA only? I think that's a nerf. I am probably hyper-sensitive to this change because there's a near total overlap between "RFU's favorite ships" and "Ships negatively impacted by this AA change."

Why would an AA destroyer go off and lone wolf, though?  The guns and torps are not as strong as other DDs as a matter of game balance.

EDIT:  The Kidd has great brawling guns, and the Freisland has the same... both of which can be used while farming from smoke.  When you say "AA Destroyer", I see the non-smoke euro DDs which don't excel on wide flanks anyway.

Edited by Ahskance

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2 minutes ago, Ahskance said:

Why would an AA destroyer go off and lone wolf, though?  The guns and torps are not as strong as other DDs as a matter of game balance.

EDIT:  The Kidd has great brawling guns, and the Freisland has the same... both of which can be used while farming from smoke.  When you say "AA Destroyer", I see the non-smoke euro DDs which don't excel on wide flanks anyway.

It's nice to have the option to do that. Basically my complaint boils down to this - there is less incentive to turn your AA on in an AA destroyer. As we both mentioned, all AA destroyers have some tradeoffs in exchange for their AA power as a matter of balancing. Now, if the situations in which they can use their effectively AA are reduced or are made more dangerous (as a result of the new AA firing bloom detection penalty being identical to the main battery firing penalty in duration),  then the value of their AA strength is reduced while the tradeoff they made to get it is just as severe as it was in the first place.

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