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tm63au

German Naval Aviation and CV Rhein

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First let me say when the details of the ships and particularly the aircraft were announced I had a cursory look at the planes and was troubled by them being so old as they were in there design.

Finally got KMS Rhein two days ago and have played a few games in her, I found her torpedo Bombers solid, the Dive bombing system sucks need to be right the target then attack and the fighter rocket attack system just wow.

Anyway just finished a couple of games in her and decided to do a thorough once over of ship and revisit the plane models again.

Now I looked through Wikipedia its one of the most modern places to look up stuff of course its not the only place anyway looking over all the designs there nothing stands out to me to even be close to this ship unless its a amalgamation of two ships.

And I don't intend to go digging around trying to unearth its origins, WG states this ship is a 1942 designed Light Carrier which was going into serial production, lets move on for the moment look at the planes it carries and then I will come back and address the ship again.

For those who may or may not know during the inter war years Germany was leading the way in Naval Aviation and Naval Aviation Technology, some might say they were still in front for the first year of WWII but Great Britain overtook them in that field as the war went on and we know what happened.

Ok now to the planes 

AR 68

   The Ar 68 entered service with the Luftwaffe in 1936 and one of the first units was stationed in East Prussia. Soon, the fighter was sent to fight in the Spanish Civil War, where it was outclassed by the Soviet Polikarpov I-16. Arado responded by upgrading the engine of the Ar 68E, which soon became the Luftwaffe's most widely used fighter in 1937–38, before being replaced by the Messerschmitt Bf 109. The last Ar 68s served as night fighters up to the winter of 1939–40, after which they served as fighter-trainers until 1944.  

AR 95B

 The Arado 95 was designed in 1935 as a two-seat seaplane, for coastal patrol, reconnaissance and light attack roles. The first prototype, an all-metal biplane powered by a BMW 132 radial engine, flew in 1936, while a second prototype was powered by a Junkers Jumo 210 liquid-cooled engine. The two prototypes were evaluated against the similar Focke-Wulf Fw 62. The BMW-powered version was considered worthy of further study, and a batch of six was sent for further evaluation with the Legion Condor during the Spanish Civil War

The A model Float plane were designated by the Luftwaffe as the Ar 95A, and were used for training and for coastal reconnaissance operations in the Baltic Sea, operating off the coast of Latvia and Estonia in 1941, and in the Gulf of Finland. They continued operating until late 1944

HE 50

The He 50aL was redesignated He 50 V1 and demonstrated to the German Defence Ministry in 1932. This resulted in an order for three development aircraft, and a production batch of 60 He 50A-1 aircraft, which were built during the summer of 1933. The Republic of China placed an order for 12 He 50As, but modified with an engine cowling added and designated He 66b. These aircraft were commandeered by the Luftwaffe and redesignated He 50B. In 1935, the He 50 was delivered to the Luftwaffe's first dive bomber unit, and later partially equipped nine other dive bombing units. The He 50, however, was steadily replaced by the Henschel Hs 123 and Junkers Ju 87, after which He 50s were transferred to dive bomber training units.

In spring 1943, following the success of the Soviet VVS's Night Witches units against the Wehrmacht Heer's frontline encampments while flying their Polikarpov Po-2 biplanes on nocturnal harassment raids, surviving He 50s were rounded up from training schools and delivered to night ground attack units operating on the Eastern Front. The He 50 was used to conduct night harassment sorties on the Eastern Front until September 1944, when the units were disbanded.

If you look at the history of these planes you don't have to be blind billy to see that they are outdated antiquated aircraft used as trainers and last ditch night harassment bombers, some of them 10 years old in design does anyone really believe that The Luftwaffe and or The Kriegsmarine would have these planes on a modern Aircraft carrier of 1942 design.

If this ship were Pre WWII then I could understand, but this is a stretch for a modern designed ship even for the Germans.

If they wanted these planes on the  Tier 4 German CV why didn't we get this ship

       

 German aircraft carrier I (1915)

The first planned aircraft carrier came about in 1918, late in World War I; the German Kaiserliche Marine (Imperial Navy) had previously experimented with seaplanes operated from ships such as the armored cruiser Friedrich Carl. A major step forward came in 1918, when the light cruiser Stuttgart was converted into a dedicated seaplane tender. That same year, the Navy decided to convert the passenger ship Ausonia, then under construction, into a flush-deck aircraft carrier. Construction priorities in the last year of the war, however, meant that the ship would never be completed. What shipyard capacity that was available was devoted to building U-boats for the commerce raiding campaign. Without any conversion work having been done, the plan was abandoned. The never-finished Ausonia was broken up for scrap in 1922.

World War 1 Carrier Battle. | alternatehistory.com

 

     

Edited by tm63au
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The Rhein has those planes because it is a tier 4 CV. More modern planes would be stupidly over powered against the tier 3, 4, & 5 ships those CV's see.

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4 hours ago, tm63au said:

If this ship were Pre WWII then I could understand, but this is a stretch for a modern designed ship even for the Germans.

If they wanted these planes on the  Tier 4 German CV why didn't we get this ship

Me and someone else, though it got deleted for being 'off topic' discussed the origins of the CV - it seems it may actually be based on either or a mix of a German CVL found on an alternate history site (absolutely no historical data yet found to back it up) or even more irritating to me a Flugdeckkreuzer or 'flight deck cruiser' - a hybrid ship minus the hybrid. Namely E V. 

e5.gif

Tier 4 (that I've always said should have been skipped for Germany but with the evens only nonsense they wont) was always going to have 'worse' aircraft because 1915 I doesn't quite work. Though if you think that's bad the stock tier 8 TB is a biplane - the ones intended for GZ that should be tier 4/5 from around 1938, filling in the TB and DB slot while another bi-plane fighter fills out the attack plane slot - The Ar-197 which was intended for GZ before the 109 and 155. Being Biplanes of the mid-late 30's they still fit at the tier range, and were in fact naval planes.

Went on a rant in the feedback thread on airplanes used, then got told off it's 'technical feedback only' down he road. I have no earthly clue what the hell the dev team or researchers were doing with this line. 

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Well, as much as the aircraft choices annoy me as well. It's important to keep in mind that since aircraft in this game are really just an extension of ordnance, that just makes them skins. So the only depart who might care about more historical planes on each carrier is the art department. In short; yeah they'll take it under consideration, but only after they model and skin everything else on their plate.

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so i'm not the only one that see the tier4 german CV too "modern" for the tier4 timeline.

the ship lack those unusual designs of ww1 aircraft carriers.

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I have an e-book on German carrier designs. You can get it on Amazon pretty cheap. https://smile.amazon.com/German-Aircraft-Carriers-World-ebook/dp/B01HN25AZ2/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=The+German+Aircraft+Carriers&qid=1595792524&sr=8-2

According to Mr. Beerbaum the author, Germany came up with a series of escort carrier designs based on conversions of small Hansa freighters. No one really knows why they thought they needed such a design, but Rhein looks like it is likely based on one of those. 

Like others said the particular choice of planes is just a skin and is based on them fitting in the very early 20th century naval era that T4 represents. Old Bogue for example (the former T5 USN CV before the rework) used to operate TBD Devastators that the real ship never operated. 

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Agree she is far to "Modern" for T4, even the planes are too modern and streamlined

I also agree that the Divebombing reticule on them sucks I am not sure what munitions you are supposed to use against DDs in this thing but nothing works well as with only 2 AP bombs DDs are damn near unhitable and the rocket planes are anti cruiser weapons. Admitedly getting 4 citadels on a single rocket pass on a Danae was kinda fun though.

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This is all interesting & TY, OP, & others for providing some information/opinions. However, you are all missing the most germaine point (I think).

The real point of having the Rhein along with all the other T4 CVs is simply to terrorize T4 play.

WF allows this terrorization to happen so I say exploit this. After all, WF allows up to 2 CVs per side in T4 battles where there is barely any AA.

LOL. As if having decent AA makes any difference to a competent CV player. LOL.

& WF took over a year to remove up to 3 CVs a side in T4 play. Remember that!

This whole CV rework is a JOKE, a sick WF farce (in actuality).

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6 hours ago, BrushWolf said:

The Rhein has those planes because it is a tier 4 CV. More modern planes would be stupidly over powered against the tier 3, 4, & 5 ships those CV's see.

I don't disagree with you Brush on the fact matching the planes for this CV would be way OP for the Tiers in question, simple solution keep the planes change the CV, maybe the one I put up or something else but Rhein as a 1942 design is way to modern, I don't even think you could make it for Tier 5 if we had odd numbers again.

cheers    

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6 hours ago, WanderingGhost said:

Me and someone else, though it got deleted for being 'off topic' discussed the origins of the CV - it seems it may actually be based on either or a mix of a German CVL found on an alternate history site (absolutely no historical data yet found to back it up) or even more irritating to me a Flugdeckkreuzer or 'flight deck cruiser' - a hybrid ship minus the hybrid. Namely E V. 

e5.gif

Tier 4 (that I've always said should have been skipped for Germany but with the evens only nonsense they wont) was always going to have 'worse' aircraft because 1915 I doesn't quite work. Though if you think that's bad the stock tier 8 TB is a biplane - the ones intended for GZ that should be tier 4/5 from around 1938, filling in the TB and DB slot while another bi-plane fighter fills out the attack plane slot - The Ar-197 which was intended for GZ before the 109 and 155. Being Biplanes of the mid-late 30's they still fit at the tier range, and were in fact naval planes.

Went on a rant in the feedback thread on airplanes used, then got told off it's 'technical feedback only' down he road. I have no earthly clue what the hell the dev team or researchers were doing with this line. 

Well I wont deny I wanted more KMS CV's in game but this ship is to modern for her planes at the very least, fine keep the planes but change the ship so it matches them, the 1915 design ( above ) would have sufficed for me anyway.

WG should have stuck to there plan when The Graf came out which was that there would be no German tech tree line, however they could of instead released a number of well known designs as premiums Seydlitz / Weser model and one or two bigger designs just my view of course.

cheers

 

    

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Remember this is the same company where people had to fight tooth and nail in order to get the Ark Royal to actually HAVE Swordfish TBs...despite them being the most famous TBs for WW2 RN.

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1 hour ago, tm63au said:

Well I wont deny I wanted more KMS CV's in game but this ship is to modern for her planes at the very least, fine keep the planes but change the ship so it matches them, the 1915 design ( above ) would have sufficed for me anyway.

WG should have stuck to there plan when The Graf came out which was that there would be no German tech tree line, however they could of instead released a number of well known designs as premiums Seydlitz / Weser model and one or two bigger designs just my view of course.

cheers

 

    

Problem is the 1915 design isn't really a CV, it's more a floatplane tender with a couple wheeled aircraft, Flugdeckkreuzer E V is more an actual CV than it. Despite a 1942 design - two things to keep in mind - 1 is that it's not till 1942 that the Fi 167 was passed over for the Ju-87 in the TB role and even then was still in development at that time while the Fi 167 was ready, 2 is that the Luftwaffe wasn't exactly up on turning planes over to the Navy - so they may have used them to fill out 'lesser' ships if they were going to have to keep fighting over planes. 

The Fi 167 would in essence still be modern enough for German naval aviation at that time. Fighter is a little more complex - however given Wargaming decided to go with speed they MIGHT be able to get away with the Bf-109B/T design as the BF-109B - which was one of the variants tested to become the T model - topped out at 292 mph, only about 30 MPH faster than the F3F I believe Langley uses. Also could play off the fact RTS IJN did use at low tiers higher tier aircraft - perhaps despite being tier 4 using the 109B/T is maybe a tier 5 plane and that were an odd tier inserted would have no upgrade. At which point the 109E/T is the tier 6 (that they have the E as 6 and the T as 7 irks me to no end because they are the same damn plane), they can put the Me 155 at tier 7 (it would have been close to the 109G), and then either 2 tiers of Fw-190's and the Ta-152 at the top or 8 is fw-190, 9 is Ta-152, 10 is Me-410.

Also - they should have given Germany a tech tree, they have the ships - but they should have listened to us because their researchers are apparently not that good. 

Looking at a full tech tree -

Weser honestly can go down to tier 5

6/7 you have Elbe/Jade class and De Grasse conversion - or make up a tier 7/use something else

8 still has the Europa conversion over what is supposedly a GZ redesign they used

9 you have the actual mid build redesign of GZ that would have removed the 15 cm guns and added even more DP 10.5 cm guns just below the flight deck. 

10 as is is fine other than aircraft. 

Right there 5/6 actual designed/planned/work started ships if we count tier 4, 4/6 if we don't use De Grasse and 5.5 or 4.5/7 if we count Rhein at tier 4. They could have even with even's only, much as I despise it to no end and want odd tiers back, use Europa at tier 8, and then taken the GZ change, tweaked it to a potentially terrifying number of 12.8 cm guns instead, and boom - no actual fakes, even go as far as putting Weser at tier 4 and Elbe/Jade at 6. But yeah, tier 10 having 12.8 cm with /4 pen, definitely some lethal secondaries. As far as DB/TB, not that they should have much in TB, there are 2 variants of Stuka (C and E - naval variant of D that saw some work it seems) that are easily 6 and 7, Fw-190 can fill the role as needed for 8 and/or 9, and still leaves the Me-410 and Ju-88 as options for twin engine planes that could carry both a torpedo or bombs. 

Anyone competent and/or giving a damn could have done that just by searching google or wikipedia, to say nothing using actual sources like books and documents (That's not directed at you tm, but at the people who's actual job i is to make these lines). The line is at best a joke - and not a particularly good one. But I bet they wanna cash in on the damn actual ships/designs as premiums instead of putting odd balls out like Flugdeckkreuzer E V. Not that they wouldn't still have the other of Jade/Elbe  which had slightly different designs, De Grasse conversion, and Alt GZ depending on full tree/evens only.

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16 minutes ago, WanderingGhost said:

but they should have listened to us because their researchers are apparently not that good. 

This ^^^^^^^ never a more spoken truth

Yeah cant disagree with you of course The Germans had plenty of designs sadly we got these as tech tree ships.

As for books with background on this subject there is to many to throw a stick at, one of my favourites is this book I have stashed away in storage somewhere that I need to get out it has a extensive look at The Graf and other designs. 

German Capital Ships of World War Two by M.J. Whitley (1989-09-28 ...

Its a great read ( like many others ) as are the other two books on Cruisers and Destroyers, maybe we should pass a hat around and buy the Book for LESTA

On a side subject I have always had this evil wish WG would design HMS Argus for really low tier matches I reckon she would be fun.

 

   HMS Argus (I49) - Wikipedia

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biplanes on a tier 6 carrier is a bit painful

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12 hours ago, tm63au said:

On a side subject I have always had this evil wish WG would design HMS Argus for really low tier matches I reckon she would be fun.

Pretty sure I had Argus at 4 or 5 on my second full UK branch in the previous version of my mega thread. Probably end up in it again when I get back to working on the 2.0 version. Between missions/directives, CV's on multiple fronts, USN BB split, and more I have a lot of axes to grind. 

11 hours ago, DevilD0g said:

biplanes on a tier 6 carrier is a bit painful

Oh it's even better if you don't get the tier 8 while it's early access or burn free xp on it - it's stock tier 7 TB planes are biplanes. Cause apparently they forgot that 5 years ago when Ranger had them at tier 7 they were way too underpowered against AA meant to deal with jets - and while the systems changed the AA on some of those ships remains the same. To say nothing of Biplane vs Worcester and Minotaur. 

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On 7/26/2020 at 8:43 AM, tm63au said:

If you look at the history of these planes you don't have to be blind billy to see that they are outdated antiquated aircraft used as trainers and last ditch night harassment bombers, some of them 10 years old in design does anyone really believe that The Luftwaffe and or The Kriegsmarine would have these planes on a modern Aircraft carrier of 1942 design.

If this ship were Pre WWII then I could understand, but this is a stretch for a modern designed ship even for the Germans.

If they wanted these planes on the  Tier 4 German CV why didn't we get this ship

Your frustration is understandable. However if you look at the USS Langley's current WOWS flight, then you'll see that none of WOWS naval aviation decisions at this tier correlate to anything the vessels in consideration would have realistically onboard during the war. In fact, the USS Langley was so obsolete by late-1930s, she was converted to a Seaplane carrier and would have never launched any CAP as she does in game. In fact, when the IJN sank her in 1942, she was doing cargo duty with 32 P-40s onbaord that were designated to fight in south Asia. Had the Langley had any capacity to actually launch any of those P-40s off her deck, the 16 Mistubish G4Ms and the 15 A6Ms that were in the attack formation might have had real trouble sinking her. But the reality is, they never stood a chance because the P-40s were never designed to launch off of the deck of the Langley or land on said deck. 

Back to WG's decision on Langley's flight compliment, they're also all late-20s to mid-30s designs. But at least they were onboard of actual CVs at one point or another (none of them Langley's by the way so cue the said trombones), and were designed to be able to take off and land on said CVs' decks (again, not Langley's small runway). 

Now as for the Rhein, a paper ship with Luftwaffe planes the question for realism isn't whether she would fly 1942 German aircraft, but rather if her deck could ever allow for said aircraft to consistently launch and land. We'd have to look at runway requirements and flight elevator capacities.

However, WG is also concerned with "balance", and to pit Hosho and Langley's 1930s built aircraft against 1942 spec'd aircraft is going to get players to start flaming on these very forums, very quickly. 

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