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Taylor_Wraith

T2-3 Ships with no AA in 2x CV matches

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This should not happen.  The current state of CVs in general is arguably cancer and has been covered ad nauseum, but at least give the lowbies that don't even have AA a break.  I'd much rather wait longer for a match or deal with a team full of :Bots: rather than spend 5-10 minutes as some giddy seal-clubber's torpedo pinata when you don't even have so much as a slingshot to shoot back at them to defend yourself with.  Imagine what sort of impression this leaves new people with in their first few days here.

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Tier 2 ships can only see tier 4 ships if they are in a division with a tier 3 aka a fail division.

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47 minutes ago, Taylor_Wraith said:

This should not happen.  The current state of CVs in general is arguably cancer and has been covered ad nauseum, but at least give the lowbies that don't even have AA a break.  I'd much rather wait longer for a match or deal with a team full of :Bots: rather than spend 5-10 minutes as some giddy seal-clubber's torpedo pinata when you don't even have so much as a slingshot to shoot back at them to defend yourself with.  Imagine what sort of impression this leaves new people with in their first few days here.

If you want bot's instead of CV's, go play Co-Op, If you find a bot CV, it'll be laughable anyway.

It's also highly unlikely that an actual new player is going to see a seal clubber in their first few days, as it will be a few days to get out of "noob protected matchmaking" where they can see players that could be construed as seal clubbers. The only CV's they will see are either gonna be extremely green, or bots.

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So you're okay with driving a T3 Bogatyr with 0 AA and getting tag-teamed by a pair of CVs?  Or do you guys just reflexively snipe at all the suggestions on the forums here?  Fixate on that T2 and ignore the larger issue, go ahead.

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While basic hulls of Tier 4 ships SHOULD have aa (most of them doesnt have), a tier 3 or even tier 2 cant face a tier 4 cv. The +2-2 only apply after tier 5, so if they form a division with a tier 4 ship is their problem, not the mm of those tiers

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28 minutes ago, SgtBeltfed said:

It's also highly unlikely that an actual new player is going to see a seal clubber in their first few days, as it will be a few days to get out of "noob protected matchmaking" where they can see players that could be construed as seal clubbers. The only CV's they will see are either gonna be extremely green, or bots.

I don't think this is true. First, there are plenty of instances where a tier 3 rookie player could run into a tier 4 CV; and Second, no ship without AA should ever have to face a CV at all. I don't see a big difference between being chased across a map for 20 minutes by a veteran player and being chased around a map for 20 minutes by a rookie player. I mean seriously, how do CV players even enjoy playing against players who can't shoot back? Where is the skill in that? The challenge? That's like showing up at work on Monday and bragging about how many animals you shot at the zoo. Be proud!

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16 minutes ago, Umikami said:

I don't think this is true. First, there are plenty of instances where a tier 3 rookie player could run into a tier 4 CV; and Second, no ship without AA should ever have to face a CV at all. I don't see a big difference between being chased across a map for 20 minutes by a veteran player and being chased around a map for 20 minutes by a rookie player. I mean seriously, how do CV players even enjoy playing against players who can't shoot back? Where is the skill in that? The challenge? That's like showing up at work on Monday and bragging about how many animals you shot at the zoo. Be proud!

Getting chased around as a new tier 3 player by a CV isn't going to be common, as the CV player should be close to the end of noob protected match making.  Having a double CV game at that point should be exceedingly rate.

Now if you, just like me, hop in a tier 3, you aren't going to see actual new players. We're going to see people who have played whatever number of games it is to get out of noob protected match making.

It's not like when we were new players, and got tossed into the deep end on day one, as shallow as the deep end may have been back then.

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43 minutes ago, wraithd0g said:

So you're okay with driving a T3 Bogatyr with 0 AA and getting tag-teamed by a pair of CVs?  Or do you guys just reflexively snipe at all the suggestions on the forums here?  Fixate on that T2 and ignore the larger issue, go ahead.

I have problems with people that outright lie and exaggerate. It tends to shoot one's credibility full of holes.

Now, as far as ships with 0 AA facing CV's, that's a two part problem.

1) If WG gave you whatever AA would actually be appropriate for a Bogatyr, you' d have a couple of machine guns that would do nothing but tell you that you're about to be bombed. You're better off using your rudder and dodging, the slow ships at that tier have ok rudders, and very tight turning circles, even if they are slow.

2) Tier 4 CV's should have been fully functional, and more learning tool than effective ship, not the semi-effective, half functional ships we have right now. They should not added the second torpedo bomber, one was fine to learn how torps work, and how to dodge them. They should have also have on summon fighters, so that players can learn the mechanics of all the roles of a CV at tier 4, instead of being clueless at tier 6, where they're gonna be flying into tier 8 flak.

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1 hour ago, Umikami said:

Second, no ship without AA should ever have to face a CV at all.

Wow... does this mean my Ark B can keep all six slots and get some killer AA soon? :cap_haloween:

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1 hour ago, SgtBeltfed said:

Getting chased around as a new tier 3 player by a CV isn't going to be common

What makes you think this, as I think a new tier 3 CV player would be doing nothing but chasing ships around the map. It's not like he's going to be getting the kill shots a vet would.

1 hour ago, SgtBeltfed said:

Having a double CV game at that point should be exceedingly rate.

I know this isn't true, for both new and vet players.

1 hour ago, SgtBeltfed said:

If WG gave you whatever AA would actually be appropriate for a Bogatyr, you' d have a couple of machine guns that would do nothing but tell you that you're about to be bombed.

And if WG gave you whatever CVs you'd have faced in a Bogatyr, you'd win every game, because Bogatyr was scrapped in 1922, before any CVs were commissioned. So why don't you go ahead and tell me how a ship that was turned into razor blades before the first CV ever sailed was supposed to fight one? 

1 hour ago, SgtBeltfed said:

I have problems with people that outright lie and exaggerate. It tends to shoot one's credibility full of holes.

How ironic that this should come from you.

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10 minutes ago, Herr_Reitz said:

Wow... does this mean my Ark B can keep all six slots and get some killer AA soon? :cap_haloween:

No, it means you can put whatever you want into your Ark Beta slots, and that it SHOULD have some kind of AA if it's going to face CVs. 

This was her 1942 refit:

Armament:

12 × 12 in/50 cal Mark 7 guns

6 × 5 in/51 cal guns

10 × 3 in/50 cal AA guns

4 × 3-pounder saluting guns

9 × quad 40 mm (1.6 in) Bofors guns

26 × 20 mm (0.79 in) AA guns

You'll notice that, because she's a premium ship, you have no access to her wartime refit, which, FYI, isn't all that impressive when compared to say Texas or New Mexico. Still, it is much better than nothing, and WG should offer us the upgrade considering how many CVs you see at tier 4, and that they are introducing a German premium at that tier. 

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I’d personally love to play my HMS dreadnaught and be farmed by something other than CV’s.   I enjoy the historical ships most of all in the game and it saddens me that it gets abused so by ships not relevant to its era.

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44 minutes ago, Umikami said:

Still, it is much better than nothing, and WG should offer us the upgrade considering how many CVs you see at tier 4, and that they are introducing a German premium at that tier. 

Well, she's never had AA, they said never will, so I accept her as she is... they've always said she'd be too much for her tier. 

I'd much prefer she stay where she is, as she is, at the reward ship she was meant to be... I could see another version of her, with five slots and AAA. Probably move a lot of them. 

NOTE: I reread your post and thank you for the specs. It also makes sense really, that no T4 ships should be without AA these days. None. But they wouldn't agree with that statement, you think? 

Edited by Herr_Reitz

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11 minutes ago, Herr_Reitz said:

But they wouldn't agree with that statement, you think?

Obviously not, as Ark Beta was released to us when the game went live and we already had CVs then. 

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9 hours ago, Umikami said:

What makes you think this, as I think a new tier 3 CV player would be doing nothing but chasing ships around the map. It's not like he's going to be getting the kill shots a vet would.

I know this isn't true, for both new and vet players.

And if WG gave you whatever CVs you'd have faced in a Bogatyr, you'd win every game, because Bogatyr was scrapped in 1922, before any CVs were commissioned. So why don't you go ahead and tell me how a ship that was turned into razor blades before the first CV ever sailed was supposed to fight one? 

How ironic that this should come from you.

Finding an actual new CV player in noob protected match making should be pretty rare, By the time you're running a CV, you have ground out 5 ships and gotten into a 6th. I'm not entirely sure it's possible, you may run out of games, as I've never rolled another account to try it, as that would really be seal clubbing.

Ships started sporting anti-aircraft armaments in WWI, around 1915 and 1916, usually consisting of a couple of machine guns, up to something like 1 and 2 pounder automatic guns, for dealing with seaplanes, land based aircraft, ect...  (which were just starting to carry torpedoes and bombs) Some of the battleships were actually starting to sport handfuls of heavy anti-aircraft guns, like 75 and 88mm guns (not the famous WWII 88, it's actually just a common caliber in Germany).. HMS Argus and HMS Furious were both in commission before the end of the war in 1918, and HMS Furious had already attacked something (Zeppelin Hangars) before her aircraft few on to a land base. HMS Hermes and HMS Eagle were both laid down or undergoing conversion at this time,, though they would not be completed until 1924.

As far as calling out people for lying, that's what the OP did, outright lie as tier 2 ship can't see a carrier without fail platooning, which is where a hard lesson should be learned, by slapping someone upside the head.

 

 

Edited by SgtBeltfed

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2 hours ago, SgtBeltfed said:

HMS Argus and HMS Furious were both in commission before the end of the war in 1918, and HMS Furious had already attacked something (Zeppelin Hangars) before her aircraft few on to a land base.

This is stretching the truth to almost breaking. HMS Argus, while being in commission, was undergoing tests of her overall shape (decisions on keeping or removing her dual islands, which were both eventually scrapped in favor of an integral control station) and her arresting gear. Her first actual combat deployment wasn't until September 1922, when she was sent to the Dardanelles during the Chanak Crisis. Up to that time, she was basically still being worked up.

Furious is a different story, actually performing a combat strike in July of 1918, attacking the Zeppelin sheds at Tondern. She had only half a flight deck, could only carry fighters (and only 7 of those), but did indeed act in the role of a fleet carrier for that time. Of course, after that she was almost immediatly pulled from service, completely refitted, and didn't reappear again until 1925. 

Neither HMS Hermes nor HMS Eagle were commissioned until 1924, 2 years after Bogatyr was scrapped.

None of which is the point, just as it is also not the point that land based aircraft were attacking ships during and right after WW1. The point is that a cruiser that was put into service in 1903 and scrapped in 1922 would never have seen combat against a CV. Certainly Furious, the only CV to carry out a strike in WW1, would never have attacked her with 7 fighters. So expecting such a ship to face a 1930s vintage CV, or even 2 of them, with her 1900 armament and 1900 speed and maneuverability is ludicrous. She was never designed to do so, had no resources to do so, and WG putting her, and most of the other tier 3 and 4 ships in the game with little or no functioning AA, in a position where she has to is promoting seal-clubbing of the worst kind; the kind where only one side gets a gun. Like I said, this is the equivalent of going hunting at the zoo. But obviously there are players out there who enjoy, and brag about, how many defenseless ships they sunk. How courageous!

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1 hour ago, Umikami said:

This is stretching the truth to almost breaking. HMS Argus, while being in commission, was undergoing tests of her overall shape (decisions on keeping or removing her dual islands, which were both eventually scrapped in favor of an integral control station) and her arresting gear. Her first actual combat deployment wasn't until September 1922, when she was sent to the Dardanelles during the Chanak Crisis. Up to that time, she was basically still being worked up.

Furious is a different story, actually performing a combat strike in July of 1918, attacking the Zeppelin sheds at Tondern. She had only half a flight deck, could only carry fighters (and only 7 of those), but did indeed act in the role of a fleet carrier for that time. Of course, after that she was almost immediatly pulled from service, completely refitted, and didn't reappear again until 1925. 

Neither HMS Hermes nor HMS Eagle were commissioned until 1924, 2 years after Bogatyr was scrapped.

None of which is the point, just as it is also not the point that land based aircraft were attacking ships during and right after WW1. The point is that a cruiser that was put into service in 1903 and scrapped in 1922 would never have seen combat against a CV. Certainly Furious, the only CV to carry out a strike in WW1, would never have attacked her with 7 fighters. So expecting such a ship to face a 1930s vintage CV, or even 2 of them, with her 1900 armament and 1900 speed and maneuverability is ludicrous. She was never designed to do so, had no resources to do so, and WG putting her, and most of the other tier 3 and 4 ships in the game with little or no functioning AA, in a position where she has to is promoting seal-clubbing of the worst kind; the kind where only one side gets a gun. Like I said, this is the equivalent of going hunting at the zoo. But obviously there are players out there who enjoy, and brag about, how many defenseless ships they sunk. How courageous!

1) at low tiers, you're best defense against aircraft, is your rudder. Not trying to shoot down the handful of aircraft a tier 4 CV can launch, which aren't fast enough to bother you more than once every couple of minutes anyway.

2) It is a fact that warships in WWI were starting to sport a smattering a AA guns, not the massive arrays of WWII, but they did carry AA guns none the less. Navies knew that dealing with aircraft was on the horizon, even if they didn't know that aircraft carriers were going to be quite the thing they would become. They started to carry the AA gun fairly early in the war as well.

3) Hermes and Eagle were completed in 1924, they began construction and conversion in 1918, and it's not like this was a secret. Navies have a history of looking over the fence at whatever the other guy is building, and planning accordingly. 

4) Bogatyr was not scrapped in 1922 because she was at the end of her designs useful life. She was scrapped because the newly communist Russian's didn't have the resources to maintain a fleet. She was also in horrid condition. Had the Russians actually had the resources to constitute a fleet, she would have probably hung around until 1930 in some secondary role, and have received a smattering of anti-aircraft guns at the cost of some of her other armament. 

5) and most important, I have already stated repeatedly that I do not approve of how WG handled the tier 4 aircraft carriers, they should have been more learning tools than effective warships, because players need to learn how to use and deal with CV's at the lowest possible level, instead of finding out the hard way when they get to tier 5 and are on the receiving end of a tier 6 carrier, or get the tier 6 carrier, and get thrown at tier 8 AA.

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1 hour ago, SgtBeltfed said:

at low tiers, you're best defense against aircraft, is your rudder.

First, at ANY tier, your best defense against aircraft is your rudder, because AA just plain sucks regardless of tier! Second, you have, again, totally missed the point; ships with no AA should not have to face CVs at any time.

1 hour ago, SgtBeltfed said:

It is a fact that warships in WWI were starting to sport a smattering a AA guns, not the massive arrays of WWII, but they did carry AA guns none the less. Navies knew that dealing with aircraft was on the horizon, even if they didn't know that aircraft carriers were going to be quite the thing they would become. They started to carry the AA gun fairly early in the war as well.

While some ships might have carried AA during WW1, they did not face the types of aircraft that fly off of tier 4 CVs, those being planes from the 30s and 40s. If you want to equip tier 4 CVs with planes made from wood and fabric, with HP pools to match, then we can talk, but till then, again, apples and oranges.

1 hour ago, SgtBeltfed said:

Hermes and Eagle were completed in 1924, they began construction and conversion in 1918, and it's not like this was a secret. Navies have a history of looking over the fence at whatever the other guy is building, and planning accordingly. 

It doesn't matter when they were laid down, as by the time they were completed, Bogatyr had long since been turned into tin cans. The point here being that even the first CVs built were a complete decade or two beyond the ships at tier 3, and only contemporary with the ships at tier 4 because of their many years of testing.A good example of this is Ark Beta, which has NO AA. It was built prior to WW1, and served in both world wars, but the ship we get in the game never gets the 1942 AA refit, but still sees the WW2 planes.

1 hour ago, SgtBeltfed said:

 Bogatyr was not scrapped in 1922 because she was at the end of her designs useful life. She was scrapped because the newly communist Russian's didn't have the resources to maintain a fleet. She was also in horrid condition. Had the Russians actually had the resources to constitute a fleet, she would have probably hung around until 1930 in some secondary role, and have received a smattering of anti-aircraft guns at the cost of some of her other armament. 

Sorry, but not buying this at all. The Russians had unfinished ships sitting in construction areas waiting to be finished for 20 years, so finding a place for one itty bitty cruiser wouldn't have been that big a deal. So if she was scrapped, it was because they wanted her scrapped because she was too antiquated to refit.

1 hour ago, SgtBeltfed said:

and most important, I have already stated repeatedly that I do not approve of how WG handled the tier 4 aircraft carriers, they should have been more learning tools than effective warships, because players need to learn how to use and deal with CV's at the lowest possible level, instead of finding out the hard way when they get to tier 5 and are on the receiving end of a tier 6 carrier, or get the tier 6 carrier, and get thrown at tier 8 AA.

Since the AA has been removed from these tiers, the tier 4 CVs should be removed as well. Start CVs at  tier 6 and go from there.

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54 minutes ago, Umikami said:

First, at ANY tier, your best defense against aircraft is your rudder, because AA just plain sucks regardless of tier! Second, you have, again, totally missed the point; ships with no AA should not have to face CVs at any time.

While some ships might have carried AA during WW1, they did not face the types of aircraft that fly off of tier 4 CVs, those being planes from the 30s and 40s. If you want to equip tier 4 CVs with planes made from wood and fabric, with HP pools to match, then we can talk, but till then, again, apples and oranges.

It doesn't matter when they were laid down, as by the time they were completed, Bogatyr had long since been turned into tin cans. The point here being that even the first CVs built were a complete decade or two beyond the ships at tier 3, and only contemporary with the ships at tier 4 because of their many years of testing.A good example of this is Ark Beta, which has NO AA. It was built prior to WW1, and served in both world wars, but the ship we get in the game never gets the 1942 AA refit, but still sees the WW2 planes.

Sorry, but not buying this at all. The Russians had unfinished ships sitting in construction areas waiting to be finished for 20 years, so finding a place for one itty bitty cruiser wouldn't have been that big a deal. So if she was scrapped, it was because they wanted her scrapped because she was too antiquated to refit.

Since the AA has been removed from these tiers, the tier 4 CVs should be removed as well. Start CVs at  tier 6 and go from there.

The aircraft you're seeing in game on the tier 4 CV's are WWI aircraft is you look at the speeds they're going. (right around 100 knots for non-fighters in 1918) Doesn't matter what skin and name WG puts on them. HP pools are arbitrary anyway.

The Russians had a lot of unfinished ships laying around, that remained unfinished for 20 and 30 years just to get scrapped. Keeping a cruiser around they didn't have the personnel for to begin with, especially after they had gone and drummed out or shot most of the leadership, just didn't make any sense. A ship on the slipway didn't cost much to maintain (especially if you didn't), a ship in service in poor condition sitting in salt water is another story, especially when they did nothing with the lot of them. The Russian fleet kept what it could, and worn out wrecks of cruisers were not high priorities, especially when they had battleships that in theory made them somebody. (In reality, everyone knew the Russian fleet could do nothing with what they had, and promptly ignored them) The Russians did retain other cruisers of the same age, like Aurora, and she was functional until WWII.

Tier 3 ships never had spectacular AA, and many of them had none back under RTS. It's not like it was magically removed. RTS CV's were a lot more dangerous than what we have today.

You're starting to sound like someone who had their seal clubbing session interrupted by an aircraft carrier.

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19 hours ago, Nabucodonosor21 said:

a tier 3 or even tier 2 cant face a tier 4 cv.

What? Tier 3 ships fight Tier 4 ships all the time.

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5 hours ago, Umikami said:

Neither HMS Hermes nor HMS Eagle were commissioned until 1924, 2 years after Bogatyr was scrapped.

None of which is the point, just as it is also not the point that land based aircraft were attacking ships during and right after WW1. The point is that a cruiser that was put into service in 1903 and scrapped in 1922 would never have seen combat against a CV. Certainly Furious, the only CV to carry out a strike in WW1, would never have attacked her with 7 fighters.

Someone is forgetting the CV HMS Vindictive, which certainly did have the striking force to sink the Bogatyr and was in service well before Bogatyr was scrapped. 

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Ok, I'm going to try and end this thread right here: if your ship has no AA, it's the fault of the designers for forgetting something and of the developers for putting it in. Try to stick close to ships with AA for protection, like the CV on your team.

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42 minutes ago, black_hull4 said:

Someone is forgetting the CV HMS Vindictive, which certainly did have the striking force to sink the Bogatyr and was in service well before Bogatyr was scrapped. 

I suppose, by the broadest definition possible, you might consider the HMS Vindictive a working CV, overlooking the British Admiralty considering it too dangerous to land planes on her when she was moving due to the turbulence created by her "island" when she was sailing; considering her flight deck had to be extended to 118 feet in order to get the one and only strike she ever launched off her flight deck, considering that after that her planes were sent to ground bases and she was subsequently reconverted into a cruiser. But, yes, she did indeed launch one strike, though honestly I would have thought a better example would have been Japan's sea plane attack. 

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1 hour ago, SgtBeltfed said:

The aircraft you're seeing in game on the tier 4 CV's are WWI aircraft is you look at the speeds they're going.

No, I think not. Here are the aircraft you get with the tier 4 CVs before upgrades, and the year they first entered service

IJN: A4N, 1934; B4Y, 1936; D1A, 1934.

USN: F3F, 1936; T4M, 1927; SBU, 1935.

KM: Ar68, 1934; Ar95b, 1936; He50, 1931.

RN: Sea Gladiator, 1934; Albacore, 1938; Swordfish, 1934.

NONE of these planes saw service in WW1, and only one, the American T4M, flew in the 20s. These are almost all aircraft from the 30s being sent against ships built 20 to 30 years before the planes they are facing were designed. 

The big upgrade in aircraft speed happened during the heydays of airplane racing, which happened during the 30s. Before that almost all planes were bi-planes and flew at much reduced speeds than their monoplane counterparts. So your argument that they were WW1 planes based on their speed is nothing more than you mistaking the reason for the speeds being slow. Airspeed increased because airplane racers lost a wing to cut down drag, and warplane designers learned the lessons of the Spanish Civil War and went with monoplane designs.

2 hours ago, SgtBeltfed said:

You're starting to sound like someone who had their seal clubbing session interrupted by an aircraft carrier.

At least I know what I'm talking about, and have my facts straight, like what year planes are from, and why they fly as fast as they do.

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