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dEsTurbed1

Why I hate Carriers

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So why would I hate Carriers after living through RTS and double carriers in the beginning?

Within 1 minute my destroyer can loose over half it's  health.

All AA under tier 8 is useless and puts your ship at the mercy of enemy carriers skill.

Being able to take a Des Moines and stop a push while hugging an island, to suddenly loosing 20l health to a midway bomb attack with def AA on....

...

It is real simple, skill gap still exists, but now it's fun for noobs to fly planes.

A good CV player dictates a match, a bad one is worse than an afk dd....

....

Dealing with, dodging and being focused is still no fun, but now it takes less skill to do it.

Now that we have AP rockets, I'm going to learn to love my carriers again.

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WG had a system that worked, had established mechanics, and was tolerated to a certain extent; but because of still extant whining and complaining, and not enough CV divers, chose to rework the entire system.

There were various steps they could have taken to make the old system less onerous and accessible; but WG instead opted for an entire rework.

Effectively, the only positive change was carriers did become more accessible.

Everything else was changes in mechanics that basically lead to no change at all. The skill gap is still real, and carriers are, if anything, MORE hated than before.

Hooray?

Basically 3-1/2 years of (wasted?) effort, if you count back to 2017, the ‘Year of the Carrier,’ for results that could be argued, did little to improve gameplay as a whole.

dE; don’t necessarily agree with everything you said, but +1 anyway.

Edited by Estimated_Prophet
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2 hours ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

So why would I hate Carriers after living through RTS and double carriers in the beginning?

Within 1 minute my destroyer can loose over half it's  health.

All AA under tier 8 is useless and puts your ship at the mercy of enemy carriers skill.

Being able to take a Des Moines and stop a push while hugging an island, to suddenly loosing 20l health to a midway bomb attack with def AA on....

...

It is real simple, skill gap still exists, but now it's fun for noobs to fly planes.

A good CV player dictates a match, a bad one is worse than an afk dd....

....

Dealing with, dodging and being focused is still no fun, but now it takes less skill to do it.

Now that we have AP rockets, I'm going to learn to love my carriers again.

The ONLY way to stop the CV from being too powerful with strikes and spotting is to limit its total reach.  Reach time is plotted and planes have to com eback when it reched the 50% mark and they head back to the CV.   This model would be very powerful and devastating to enemy ships within the radius but as you can see..the CV cannot reach you as long as you are not within the deadly radius kill zone.   Will it be a reality ?   Probably not but then it would make it more FUN and FAIR for other of the majority of the players.  What a concept eh? 

Another idea is also if the CV captain could choose the munitions load it can alter the travel time. In other words if you equip the plane full you get the smallest time in the air. Load LESS and you get more time. 

Also each plane has its own spotting parameter so its a spot radius also. If it flies to the end of the attack radius cycle it could spot you but cannot attack you as it has to turn back.  In that case you are warned and should turn back to avoid being attacked as the enemy has intel on you or another enemyship  has intel on you as well.   

cv-reach.png

Edited by dionkraft
typo
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1 hour ago, dionkraft said:

The ONLY way to stop the CV from being too powerful with strikes and spotting is to limit its total reach.  Reach time is plotted and planes have to com eback when it reched the 50% mark and they head back to the CV.   This model would be very powerful and devastating to enemy ships within the radius but as you can see..the CV cannot reach you as long as you are not within the deadly radius kill zone.   Will it be a reality ?   Probably not but then it would make it more FUN and FAIR for other of the majority of the players.  What a concept eh? 

Another idea is also if the CV captain could choose the munitions load it can alter the travel time. In other words if you equip the plane full you get the smallest time in the air. Load LESS and you get more time. 

Also each plane has its own spotting parameter so its a spot radius also. If it flies to the end of the attack radius cycle it could spot you but cannot attack you as it has to turn back.  In that case you are warned and should turn back to avoid being attacked as the enemy has intel on you or another enemyship  has intel on you as well.   

cv-reach.png

At one point WG discussed not being able to launch planes at start of battle.....

Every other ship has to load its ORDNANCE including a long torpedo load, but a CV can insta launch a flight....

Give them a 1 min load time for prep.... 

Hell, givecthem sny sorta balance delay, like recover last flight before launching a new squad.

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Remember folks, thisvis a why I hate....

Not ment to fix a system.

There are a few matches where the CV driver on my team outright owned the reds or played a strong team support thatvitxwas great....

Unfortunately,  in my short memory,  bad outweighs the good as far as sticking in the memory banks...

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1 minute ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

At one point WG discussed not being able to launch planes at start of battle.....

Every other ship has to load its ORDNANCE including a long torpedo load, but a CV can insta launch a flight....

Give them a 1 min load time for prep.... 

Hell, givecthem sny sorta balance delay, like recover last flight before launching a new squad.

Which was basically what RTS was, but too much kvetching about instadeath murder drops...

...which, golly gee, WG could have fixed for the most part immediately by completely removing manual attacks. But hey; guess the spreadsheets said Death by a Thousand Continuous Cuts was the better option.

3 minutes ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

Unfortunately,  in my short memory,  bad outweighs the good as far as sticking in the memory banks...

Therein lies a difference between us dE.

To quote Joe Rosey (Humphrey Bogart,) early in ‘Action in the North Atlantic;’ “You remember the bad things Captain; I remember the fun.”

I hate the damned rework like you wouldn’t believe. I love calling it ‘a burning dumpster full of summer fermented cafeteria slops;’ because WG took away the fun I had playing carriers.

For the most part, such fun was had in Co-op, where my weaknesses as a CV driver didn’t matter as much, and I wouldn’t bother other players with what I knew was a disliked mechanic:

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29 minutes ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

At one point WG discussed not being able to launch planes at start of battle.....

Every other ship has to load its ORDNANCE including a long torpedo load, but a CV can insta launch a flight....

Give them a 1 min load time for prep.... 

Hell, givecthem sny sorta balance delay, like recover last flight before launching a new squad.

Yeah I can see that as a good measure initially but after the delay...the same scenario holds true in that the CV reach is unlimited to search the map and spot the map for their team.  To me thats way too arcady.  It would be like playing the Game "BAttleship",  with a transparent board in between players.  There has to be some element of diagnosis where the enemy is like the plots on the mini map showing the last know position of the enemy ship.   But my ideas run counter to what WG wants as well as other players. Thats the name of the game...and so far...I have quit playing...don't miss it at all as more time elapses...Funny when one breaks the cycle of habit and this is one.  Oh well..months from now we will probably see CV topics sunk by SUB topics as they will be the new kid on the block!  

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1 hour ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Which was basically what RTS was, but too much kvetching about instadeath murder drops...

...which, golly gee, WG could have fixed for the most part immediately by completely removing manual attacks. But hey; guess the spreadsheets said Death by a Thousand Continuous Cuts was the better option.

Therein lies a difference between us dE.

To quote Joe Rosey (Humphrey Bogart,) early in ‘Action in the North Atlantic;’ “You remember the bad things Captain; I remember the fun.”

I hate the damned rework like you wouldn’t believe. I love calling it ‘a burning dumpster full of summer fermented cafeteria slops;’ because WG took away the fun I had playing carriers.

For the most part, such fun was had in Co-op, where my weaknesses as a CV driver didn’t matter as much, and I wouldn’t bother other players with what I knew was a disliked mechanic:

Was up to T6 ijn and finally upgraded my beloved Bouge.

Ijn was tough for me because of all the flights....

AND YES, I ran fighter Bouge....

Now I dabble in cv. Not very good, but getting to really like germans.

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1 hour ago, dionkraft said:

Yeah I can see that as a good measure initially but after the delay...the same scenario holds true in that the CV reach is unlimited to search the map and spot the map for their team.  To me thats way too arcady.  It would be like playing the Game "BAttleship",  with a transparent board in between players.  There has to be some element of diagnosis where the enemy is like the plots on the mini map showing the last know position of the enemy ship.   But my ideas run counter to what WG wants as well as other players. Thats the name of the game...and so far...I have quit playing...don't miss it at all as more time elapses...Funny when one breaks the cycle of habit and this is one.  Oh well..months from now we will probably see CV topics sunk by SUB topics as they will be the new kid on the block!  

Halland is your answer to carriers....

Only a very very good driver can strike you.

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2 minutes ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

Halland is your answer to carriers....

Only a very very good driver can strike you.

Thanks for the recommendation...I will keep that in mind...

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I used to hate Arty in WOT as much as I hate CV in WOWS.  

 

How I hate the CV in WOWS alot more.

  1. Arty generally does not move.  Shots are predictable in that they will arrive from a specific direction, making cover easier to find. 
    1. CV: Planes are more flexable and attack from any angle
  2. Good arty will CB and try to eliminate the red arty before they can inflict repeatable damage
    1. CV: Only tier 6 and above CVs can drop fighters, and most choose not to
  3. Very hard for arty to defend itself when surprised
    1. CV: Automated fire control, map plotting, secondaries and re-generating planes

 

5 hours ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

Halland is your answer to carriers....

Only a very very good driver can strike you.

 

So you're saying I need to div with a Halland player so I can play the ships that I want to grind/level?

How does that help me at tier 5, 6 and 7? 

 

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12 hours ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

Halland is your answer to carriers....

Only a very very good driver can strike you.

Fully AA equipped Shikishima is proving more than a match for CVs, in part thanks to the fact you can safely mount the auxiliary armaments Mod in slot 1 instead of main armaments mod, so AA and secondary mounts are not so easily destroyed. This allowed for you to far more likely wear down the CV squadrons into having nothing instead of your ship ending up in that category.

But the biggest drawback to this is the massive steel cost rendering it out of reach to most players. Without +10% Steel earnings bonuses from our clan, and my saving steel for a long time with only having used some on the Flint, plus the resources coupon I would not have gotten Shikishima. And had to carefully research I would get the most out of her including not only any ship combat, but also AA combat.

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56 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Fully AA equipped Shikishima is proving more than a match for CVs, in part thanks to the fact you can safely mount the auxiliary armaments Mod in slot 1 instead of main armaments mod, so AA and secondary mounts are not so easily destroyed. This allowed for you to far more likely wear down the CV squadrons into having nothing instead of your ship ending up in that category.

But the biggest drawback to this is the massive steel cost rendering it out of reach to most players. Without +10% Steel earnings bonuses from our clan, and my saving steel for a long time with only having used some on the Flint, plus the resources coupon I would not have gotten Shikishima. And had to carefully research I would get the most out of her including not only any ship combat, but also AA combat.

There is less than 10 ships that can solo defend vs a carrier.

Most ships cannot defend themselves from a carrier 2 tiers lower than them

 

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6 minutes ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

There is less than 10 ships that can solo defend vs a carrier.

Most ships cannot defend themselves from a carrier 2 tiers lower than them

 

Naw that's a bit of an exaggeration. CVs two tiers lower have much harder time, especially against US BBs CAs, EU DDs, and UK CAs. 

I can average 95k in a Weser same tier, but I'll be lucky to hit +50 in a up tier match

Edited by Merc_R_Us

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A tier 8  N. CAROLINA can get hit by a T6.  The whole flight will die though.

A tier 6 us cruiser cannot stop a T4 carrier.

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Russians cant build carriers that aren’t a dumpster fire.  WG can address carriers without fking them up.  It’s the natural order of things.

Edited by LastSamurai714

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On 7/25/2020 at 2:58 PM, dionkraft said:

The ONLY way to stop the CV from being too powerful with strikes and spotting is to limit its total reach.  Reach time is plotted and planes have to com eback when it reched the 50% mark and they head back to the CV.   This model would be very powerful and devastating to enemy ships within the radius but as you can see..the CV cannot reach you as long as you are not within the deadly radius kill zone.   Will it be a reality ?   Probably not but then it would make it more FUN and FAIR for other of the majority of the players.  What a concept eh? 

Another idea is also if the CV captain could choose the munitions load it can alter the travel time. In other words if you equip the plane full you get the smallest time in the air. Load LESS and you get more time. 

Also each plane has its own spotting parameter so its a spot radius also. If it flies to the end of the attack radius cycle it could spot you but cannot attack you as it has to turn back.  In that case you are warned and should turn back to avoid being attacked as the enemy has intel on you or another enemyship  has intel on you as well.   

cv-reach.png

Besides a spotting mechanic change, I can see this as the next best thing. Planes and shells both have range. Limit them to about 18km at T10, and scale for the tier. 

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I am seriously considering quitting this game forever due to cv's. I have been playing for over 4 years and play 15-20 matches daily. Yeah, it's getting that bad. I played 7 battles today in DD's and did not last more than 1 minute in any battle because of planes either spotting or attacking me

 

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I'm not sure about the balance of CV's, but they seem fairly good to me. I haven't played WoWS for a while and actually found this forum while learning what the fighters consumable was that each squadron carries. Now I can feel a lot more helpful to my team. Anyways, to me it feels like CV's are somewhat well balanced, but I don't have any carriers above tier 6. There is rarely a battle where I reach 50k damage with my tier 6 cv. The game will start out ok with full squadrons, I'll get some good early hits in, then as the game goes on, I lose more and more planes until I can't keep any squad full. then I'm launching less and less planes. There are a lot of times when the entire squad gets eliminated to get a few measly rockets into an enemy. Yay, I did 3k damage and now I have to wait a minute to get another squadron within range of the enemy again.

I'll admit that part of my problem, is that I don't know the ships well, I don't know what has weak AA and what will eliminate my squad before I can drop a single weapon. Still, even when I'm doing well, I can get a few attack runs in against  a cruiser and might do 8k damage if he's bad at dodging and has weak AA. Then I have to launch another squad. It doesn't seem OP to me.

The biggest problem though, is that CV's are just a bit disappointing overall. I liked the RTS feel. It felt like I was a proper commander of an actual Aircraft carrier. Planning attack runs with different mixes of planes. Sending different types of squads to different parts of the map depending on what was needed.  Trying to rush my fighter squad to defend an ally while trying to not get my attacking torpedo bombers wiped out.  Sending out all the squads with a fighter escort to try and get as many planes through the enemy defenses as I could. It felt like a proper Air Wing Commander. 

The realism also felt pretty cool even in other ships. I remember starting battles in tier 7 or 8 (I only got up to a tier 7 ship) and I would just watch the waves of neat air squadrons flying out over my ship as the battle started. Even when I wasn't watching, I could hear all the different engines (some with different pitches) roaring over my ship. It felt realistic and got me kinda hyped for the battle. Then there would be huge air battles over my ship as I fought. Sometimes I would get distracted watching planes dogfight overhead while tracers flew everywhere. Admittedly, this was all when I was pretty new and didn't understand how well the system worked or how to use it very well. Now there are no dogfights. If there are enemy fighters, the entire squadron of my planes will get wiped out almost right away. The only part about the new system (visually) that I still enjoy, is when I first launch a squad and watch them form up.  With the old system, I could still do this with the cinematic mode thing, but I didn't have much time for it while managing all the different squads.

I also remember noticing a few problems with the old system's game-play. Mainly, some people were really good with manual air attacks, I felt like my poor cruiser or bb would lose half it's hp to unblock-able air attacks. It felt like they could predict my every move and drop all the torps in the perfect spot to get a full broadside. Or maybe i needed to learn how to dodge.  There were also people who were too good at dodging. They could avoid any attack completely if it was not manually aimed. Then if I tried to manually aim my air attack, they would keep dodging in circles making me re-position so many times my planes all died before I figured out how to attack. (I didn't play enough to learn manual attacks very well)

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On 7/25/2020 at 11:49 PM, Pebcac said:

Very hard for arty to defend itself when surprised

  1. CV: Automated fire control, map plotting

 

Said map plotting will make your ship stop on the ocean map.

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On 7/27/2020 at 12:52 AM, LastSamurai714 said:

Russians cant build carriers that aren’t a dumpster fire.

True, half the naval news is about the Kuznetsov and Kiev setting themselves on fire.

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the problem with cv as it is right now is the fact that they turned fighters into a meme. the reason the old system worked is cause if you couldn't play the fighter game then you weren't gonna be playing that match. on top of that you had really large aa bubbles from dm and worcester and ships like that who could panic at any range with def aa. all the big aa bubbles are gone so it is harder to play off of your aa ships and of course fighters are an absolute joke now. but the real problem is this is exactly how wargaming wanted it. now some neanderthal cant get shut down by a better cv player or get locked out by everyone sticking in an aa bubble. this was literally designed to be "accessible" from the start, which in reality means your iq can match the number of planes in your squad and you won't get made a fool of by the other cv. imo if you are trash then you should get shut down and if you don't have the nerve to get good than you should never come back. the cv rework was designed around a bad philosophy and at this point i am convinced the only reason it doesn't get scraped is so whoever came up with this doesn't get fired.  

Edited by Rough_rooster

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What has been done to the Carrier mechanics is heinous, awful, and for me, makes the game unplayable. Whoever came up with this reworking had to work at SOE during the NGE in Star Wars Galaxies. Complete garbage.

 

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