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Praise_Ashley_Sky

Unintended Consequences or Working as Intended | You Decide

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Things to consider before reading further:  I was listening to a podcast by Synpax with a guest named Fem, who apparently is a former WG employee.  One of her comments was that constructive criticism will go a lot farther than derogatory statements.  So, with the idea that I will attract more flies with honey than vinegar, I am presenting this thread.  Second, I have unhidden my stats.  Apparently, in my first post, I was accused of being a fake account.  This is not a fake account, new yes, fake no.  I am a lifetime gamer and have played numerous games that involve WASD, and experience with that initially guided my decision to hide my stats, it was not out of malice or an attempt to deceive as others have asserted.  Third, this is a constructive thread, if you have nothing constructive to provide or experience in what I am about to discuss please do not hijack or undermine the intent of this thread.

Argument/Introduction:  World of Warships Gaming Staff have recently made some decisions to alter how new players are brought into the game and the opponents they will face.  As long as your first 200 games are Tier IV and below, you will likely only encounter bots along the way (average 10+ bots per a match).  For exact wording here is what Wargaming have provided;

"When playing low-tier ships (Tiers I through V) in Random Battles, teams often entered battle with an incomplete roster. Such a situation could occur due to the fact that most of the activity in our game take place at higher tiers. Now, if the waiting time spent by the first player in the queue exceeds 3 minutes, the remaining places in the teams will be occupied by bots."

  • In Tier I–IV battles, bots are equal in strength to the bots in Co-op Battles.
  • In Tier V battles, bots have received improved AI and fight at the skill level of those in Operations.

"In Tier I - V Random Battles, bots will be added until complete teams are formed if the waiting time spent by the first player in the queue exceeds 3 minutes. A battle will only be matched if the general queue contains at least one pair of players playing ships of the same tier."

What I have found based on this decision is that there may have been unintended consequences unforeseen by Wargaming Staff who implemented these changes.  Some of these consequences include inflated stats and ego, limited to no interaction with the most dangerous class in the game or real breathing humans, achievements earned at a pace beyond what is normally seen past Tier IV game play, a reason to remain low tier, unwillingness to participate in cooperative play format, and counterproductive to the idea that players would want to grind out of the safety of a cradled environment.  For these reasons, Wargaming may have sunk their own design intentions.

Issue #1:  I am clearly not the best player in the game, nor would I probably stack up to be in the top 50 against real players in the game using the same ship type.  I am decent based on overall experience with other games, but that should not translate to immediate super-unicum status.  Needless to say, my ego is at an all time high and my stats support it.  A review of wows-numbers.com revealed that I now have the #1 Charleston stats in the world across all servers with 20 or more games.  This, because I faced bots and not real players, who can think and make decisions.  My destruction ratio is nearing top tier CV play holding at an unrealistic 37.5.  Getting nine kills in a game when there are only 12 enemies seems a bit overboard as well, but I did it in just over 100 battles.

Issue #2:  I had a 95.0 percent win rate, and my only loss came to you guessed it, the one match where CVs were in it the game and I was double stuffed by two of them at the same time, like Chinese Finger Cuffs.  (Reference:  Chasing Amy movie)  Otherwise, I have steamrolled as a premium Tier III Cruiser, even when placed against Tier IV bots and some live players.  There has been no real threat to my ship and because of I have had no interaction with CVs it has made the game sadly, more enjoyable.  Most of my other 150+ games were at Tier V and up, and against CVs my light cruisers and destroyers stood no chance.  My overall destruction ratio in random battles is closer to 3.0.  Removing the inflated 20 Charleston games and it is likely around 1.5 or so.  Needless to say, without encountering CVs, steamrolling bots is actually fun.

Issue #3:  The point here is not to bash CVs but again build on the perspective and general thought of, why would I play at a higher tier when I can do and achieve everything at this tier?  The rewards and general incentives (to include working at least one Campaign: Science of Victory) make me believe that there is almost no need to play beyond Tier III.  In fact, past Tier IV, I was earning hardly any achievements.  Now, as a Tier III, I am average about three to four achievements per a battle.  (see attachment for proof). 

Issue #4:  I seem to make more or at least I am on par with cash earned at higher tiers, there is less stress in battles, and I am rewarded for less effort.  While I as a player am all about this novel idea, I think for Wargaming long-term, there will be undesirable second and third order effects.  For me, the first impact for me was to remain within the low tier gameplay.  I feel encouraged to do so.  Perhaps this is working as intended if newer players such as myself are to remain there for at least 200 games before spoiling the games of more experienced players with our poor/novice/noob decision-making.  As my thread title suggests, this could be the very effect Wargaming is looking for, but the unintended consequence could be that players decide not to invest in higher tier game play. 

Issue #5:  I have no plans to play in cooperative format.  In "coop" I cannot earn the experience or achievements I receive in random battles.  As such, if I am to face bots, I would rather face them and get rewarded in excess for it.  Needless to say, this has made it possible for me to avoid the system almost entirely outside of the first three games I played on the NA server.  I suspect others will quickly draw the same conclusions.

Issue #6:  I feel protected in my womb, cocoon, whatever safe space Wargaming wants to call this environment.  Why would I want to leave it?  I see no reason other than the incentive of getting new ships and ruining my stats.  And if that is the trade-off for getting to a few US Navy ships that I would love to see but do not own, I will simply resort to watching others play them on YouTube and Twitch for visual appreciation.

Gaps/Conclusion:  One of the key gaps that I cannot speak to is how my battles will change once I am past the threshold of "200" battles.  If it is anything like I am experiencing now, I will have zero incentive to play past Tier IV because I can earn good credits, achievements, and have a sense of accomplishment without ever having to face aircraft carriers, really good players or the machinations of complex decision making found in high tier game play.  Second, I did not play the game prior to update 0.9.6., so I cannot speak to how things were before.  Third, I still have under 200 battles and this is a very small and selective sample size, I need to be up front with that, in that the data is very limiting for broad decision making and critical thinking.  Lastly, I am only one player and other newer players with less experience in WASD may not have the same experience as me; I could be a fluke.  If other players begin to show improvement however, that to me, would indicate a trend and an unrealistic performance in random battles.  If and when players do decide to move on to other competitive formats of this game or just higher tier random battles, I see them becoming very frustrated as they have to contend with more complex gaming decisions, real players, and a massive reduction in stats/PR/win rate/etc.

Recommendations:  First, remove the achievements for players still in the cradle "200" battles and below.  Reduce experience earned to that of a cooperative match if there are over eight bots in the game on both sides.  Or, make the bots tougher if the rewards are to remain in place.  Consider other incentives such as flags and signals instead of giving new players like myself a premium Charleston at low tier.  It has been a cash cow and allowed me to build ships, without having to grind for it.

Attachments: 1 - Sourcing and Example Data.

Sourcing and Example Data.pptx

Edited by Praise_Ashley_Sky
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Well, speaking as one who is outside the protective MM bubble...who still has to grind low tier ships...

The only tiers safe from CVs is 1 and 2. In 3-5, you are likely to see 2 CVs per match...

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Hi welcome to the game and forums!

The addition of bots at lower tiers I think was a necesary evil, this of course brings about the lot of "economic" issues you are pointing out. 

Consider you are still in protected MM, this "cocoon" is really not representative of what you will face once you break free from it. Expect the change to be brutal, for starter at T4 you'll be almost guaranteed to have 2 CV human players on the red team. The protected MM is important because it gives you time to learn the basics of ship combat and gets you hooked into the game with the vaccinated positive results and rewards.

Once you leave protected MM, you'll have every incentive in game to climb out from low tiers (it is designed that way). The more important is ships evolution, the game turns more complex and involve new dynamics (hidro, radar, heals, etc) thus making the game more interesting. Then you have the daily missions, the campaigns and events that are all designed for higher tiers (not doable in low tiers). As a final incentive, low tiers outside protected MM is not a very friendly environment, as I told you before it is infested with a disproportionally high number of CVs, many of them are very experienced seal clubbers that will give you a good reason to don't linger on low tiers beyond the necessary.

I'll recommend you once you are ready to leave low tiers, plan on settling at t5-t6 to build up your experience and game knowledge before proceeding to high tiers. 

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That's too much for me to read right now.  But you get a thumbs up just for your avatar. 

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I wonder if a mixed system would do better for newer players. Rather than 200 battles then oops you're in the deep end, have it where you play 100 bot battles then 5 non bot, then 50 bot, then 10 non bot, 25 bot, 15 non bot, 10 bot, 25 non bot, 5 bot, the rest non bot. Kind of breaks the harshness as you now know what you can expect once you hit full on non bot. Though I don't know how hard that would be to program or if it needs a better more thorough mixture to make it feel right.

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First off I'll say, your post is one of the most constructive and well thought out ones I've seen in a long time (And I've been here since the beginning) I hope that other players don't just take it as the rant of a new player. You bring up good points and I KNOW, contrary to popular belief, WG staffers do read all these posts and in many cases, Use them to make changes. Thank you for taking the time...

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Hmm why does this writing look so familiar? The reroll/alt detector is going off.

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Good Post OP but ....... the change to low tier  random battle play by adding Bots is a disaster.

The previous system was working just fine. New players had a protected MM. Older veteran players could play low tiers with as low as 1 vs 1 battles. & if one wanted to, one could just stick to co-op play.

Now, all that has happened is co-op play with Bots has been forced into Random battle play which is just rediculous & unnecessary.

This is another disastrous backward step by WG,  imho.

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1 hour ago, Praise_Ashley_Sky said:

 

Gaps/Conclusion:  One of the key gaps that I cannot speak to is how my battles will change once I am past the threshold of "200" battles.  If it is anything like I am experiencing now, I will have zero incentive to play past Tier IV because I can earn good credits, achievements, and have a sense of accomplishment without ever having to face aircraft carriers, really good players or the machinations of complex decision making found in high tier game play.  Second, I did not play the game prior to update 0.9.6., so I cannot speak to how things were before.  Third, I still have under 200 battles and this is a very small and selective sample size, I need to be up front with that, in that the data is very limiting for broad decision making and critical thinking.  Lastly, I am only one player and other newer players with less experience in WASD may not have the same experience as me; I could be a fluke.  If other players begin to show improvement however, that to me, would indicate a trend and an unrealistic performance in random battles.  If and when players do decide to move on to other competitive formats of this game or just higher tier random battles, I see them becoming very frustrated as they have to contend with more complex gaming decisions, real players, and a massive reduction in stats/PR/win rate/etc.

Recommendations:  First, remove the achievements for players still in the cradle "200" battles and below.  Reduce experience earned to that of a cooperative match if there are over eight bots in the game on both sides.  Or, make the bots tougher if the rewards are to remain in place.  Consider other incentives such as flags and signals instead of giving new players like myself a premium Charleston at low tier.  It has been a cash cow and allowed me to build ships, without having to grind for it.

Well thought out, and explained post. 

I'll address the quoted sections as I believe they highlight exactly what WG was hoping to achieve.

For many players new to a PvP focused game it can be frustrating to be thrown to the wolves after a couple of "training" games, particularly in a game where the mechanics aren't as straightforward as they might first appear. Every time I have introduced a new player to WoWs I have had to explain the AP is a bad choice against a BB when you are in a DD or CL. On the surface you would think you'd shoot AP at the armoured ships, but that ensures a poor experience as a CL player. 

The idea from WG seems to be that the longer you can draw a player in with fun, easy, and profitable games, the more likely they are to remain invested in the game. Imagine having your tenth game be against a division of three players in Vampires with 19 Pt Skippers, fully flagged up for the combat bonuses. You'd maybe play a couple more games, but are likely to be stuck facing Clemsons in the same state, or if unlucky draw continuous 2 CV per team games. 

WG gives new players low tier premiums to draw them in, once you have "premium" content in a F2P game you are more likely to keep playing, and spend money.  

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5 minutes ago, Antean said:

Good Post OP but ....... the change to low tier  random battle play by adding Bots is a disaster.

The previous system was working just fine. New players had a protected MM. Older veteran players could play low tiers with as low as 1 vs 1 battles. & if one wanted to, one could just stick to co-op play.

Now, all that has happened is co-op play with Bots has been forced into Random battle play which is just rediculous & unnecessary.

This is another disastrous backward step by WG,  imho.

How exactly is it hurting the lower tier games though? It provides more meaningful xp and credit earning, while providing low tier players a chance to improve their skills against human players and bots. 

I suppose if the plan is to seal club it might be frustrating, but seal clubbing is bad for the game so I'd imagine WG isn't upset about making it less fun for the clubbers. 

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47 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

As a final incentive, low tiers outside protected MM is not a very friendly environment, as I told you before it is infested with a disproportionally high number of CVs, many of them are very experienced seal clubbers that will give you a good reason to don't linger on low tiers beyond the necessary.

On the other hand, I still feel low tiers are more friendly than higher tiers, for the following reasons:

Mechanics are simpler. It is much easier to understand when you are in danger and what you might need to be doing...

Lethality is lower. You wont be immediately killed for a small mistake...you might still die in one massive torpedo run, but usually there is time to see it coming and think through how and why you misplayed.

Finally, and most importantly...your fellow players are much friendlier. No one is trying to grind something beyond the ship itself. Lots of people are having fun...so there is much less serious try harding...which means less angry fellow players.

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7 minutes ago, VeatherVitch said:

seal clubbing is bad for the game

The addition of Bots to low tier random battle play actually ensures more Seal Clubbing. This is the hilarious part of this WG alteration.

The older veteran WoWS player who likes to either slum a bit in low tiers or seal club as it is termed actually has it easier now - they can farm Bots then fight the real players afterwards.

This change made by WG is just another exploitable joke in WoWS.  

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40 minutes ago, Antean said:

The addition of Bots to low tier random battle play actually ensures more Seal Clubbing. This is the hilarious part of this WG alteration.

The older veteran WoWS player who likes to either slum a bit in low tiers or seal club as it is termed actually has it easier now - they can farm Bots then fight the real players afterwards.

This change made by WG is just another exploitable joke in WoWS.  

True...though farming bots isnt as objectionable to some as seal clubbing.

I spent the submarine event farming bots in my Ryujo for the freexp gains.

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1 hour ago, Antean said:

The addition of Bots to low tier random battle play actually ensures more Seal Clubbing. This is the hilarious part of this WG alteration.

The older veteran WoWS player who likes to either slum a bit in low tiers or seal club as it is termed actually has it easier now - they can farm Bots then fight the real players afterwards.

This change made by WG is just another exploitable joke in WoWS.  

While the clubber is farming the new player gets a chance to shoot, and maneuver. 

When facing players that are experts at the game mechanics a new player would often die before they could learn what they did wrong. Now they have the chance to drive and shoot, maybe even shoot at the distracted clubber who is farming. 

Lets be clear, "slumming" in the low tiers is "fun" because you are beating up on players less skilled and experienced,  unless you run into other people "slumming" as well. 

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2 hours ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

On the other hand, I still feel low tiers are more friendly than higher tiers, for the following reasons:

Mechanics are simpler. It is much easier to understand when you are in danger and what you might need to be doing...

Lethality is lower. You wont be immediately killed for a small mistake...you might still die in one massive torpedo run, but usually there is time to see it coming and think through how and why you misplayed.

Finally, and most importantly...your fellow players are much friendlier. No one is trying to grind something beyond the ship itself. Lots of people are having fun...so there is much less serious try harding...which means less angry fellow players.

That's true.

But once you are done with the grind itself, there's no much reason to linger down there. The multiple CVs become a constant worry (tho, take it with a pinch of salt, my last experience there is 2 patches old), also once you get 400-500 hundred matches at basic levels, there's not much left to learn at tier 4, moving up to medium tiers is better from a learning perspective for a more diversified meta. 

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Getting players to advance it tiers is not a problem that WG has. Most players push up the tiers in my opinion in a lot of cases they actually push to fast. 

So anyway if you are having fun in low tiers more power to ya. Play the game as you wish.

Cheers.

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Unless I'm mistaken don't you still get bumped out of Protected MM after your 1st T5+ match irregardless number battles played?

Edited by bosco1111

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20 minutes ago, bosco1111 said:

Unless I'm mistaken don't you still get bumped out of Protected MM after your 1st T5+ match irregardless number battles played?

I think that is how it still works. The OP is already at T7 with the Mahan with less than 200 matches overall.

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16 hours ago, Praise_Ashley_Sky said:

Things to consider before reading further:  I was listening to a podcast by Synpax with a guest named Fem, who apparently is a former WG employee.  One of her comments was that constructive criticism will go a lot farther than derogatory statements.  So, with the idea that I will attract more flies with honey than vinegar, I am presenting this thread.  Second, I have unhidden my stats.  Apparently, in my first post, I was accused of being a fake account.  This is not a fake account, new yes, fake no.  I am a lifetime gamer and have played numerous games that involve WASD, and experience with that initially guided my decision to hide my stats, it was not out of malice or an attempt to deceive as others have asserted.  Third, this is a constructive thread, if you have nothing constructive to provide or experience in what I am about to discuss please do not hijack or undermine the intent of this thread.

Argument/Introduction:  World of Warships Gaming Staff have recently made some decisions to alter how new players are brought into the game and the opponents they will face.  As long as your first 200 games are Tier IV and below, you will likely only encounter bots along the way (average 10+ bots per a match).  For exact wording here is what Wargaming have provided;

"When playing low-tier ships (Tiers I through V) in Random Battles, teams often entered battle with an incomplete roster. Such a situation could occur due to the fact that most of the activity in our game take place at higher tiers. Now, if the waiting time spent by the first player in the queue exceeds 3 minutes, the remaining places in the teams will be occupied by bots."

  • In Tier I–IV battles, bots are equal in strength to the bots in Co-op Battles.
  • In Tier V battles, bots have received improved AI and fight at the skill level of those in Operations.

"In Tier I - V Random Battles, bots will be added until complete teams are formed if the waiting time spent by the first player in the queue exceeds 3 minutes. A battle will only be matched if the general queue contains at least one pair of players playing ships of the same tier."

What I have found based on this decision is that there may have been unintended consequences unforeseen by Wargaming Staff who implemented these changes.  Some of these consequences include inflated stats and ego, limited to no interaction with the most dangerous class in the game or real breathing humans, achievements earned at a pace beyond what is normally seen past Tier IV game play, a reason to remain low tier, unwillingness to participate in cooperative play format, and counterproductive to the idea that players would want to grind out of the safety of a cradled environment.  For these reasons, Wargaming may have sunk their own design intentions.

Issue #1:  I am clearly not the best player in the game, nor would I probably stack up to be in the top 50 against real players in the game using the same ship type.  I am decent based on overall experience with other games, but that should not translate to immediate super-unicum status.  Needless to say, my ego is at an all time high and my stats support it.  A review of wows-numbers.com revealed that I now have the #1 Charleston stats in the world across all servers with 20 or more games.  This, because I faced bots and not real players, who can think and make decisions.  My destruction ratio is nearing top tier CV play holding at an unrealistic 37.5.  Getting nine kills in a game when there are only 12 enemies seems a bit overboard as well, but I did it in just over 100 battles.

Issue #2:  I had a 95.0 percent win rate, and my only loss came to you guessed it, the one match where CVs were in it the game and I was double stuffed by two of them at the same time, like Chinese Finger Cuffs.  (Reference:  Chasing Amy movie)  Otherwise, I have steamrolled as a premium Tier III Cruiser, even when placed against Tier IV bots and some live players.  There has been no real threat to my ship and because of I have had no interaction with CVs it has made the game sadly, more enjoyable.  Most of my other 150+ games were at Tier V and up, and against CVs my light cruisers and destroyers stood no chance.  My overall destruction ratio in random battles is closer to 3.0.  Removing the inflated 20 Charleston games and it is likely around 1.5 or so.  Needless to say, without encountering CVs, steamrolling bots is actually fun.

Issue #3:  The point here is not to bash CVs but again build on the perspective and general thought of, why would I play at a higher tier when I can do and achieve everything at this tier?  The rewards and general incentives (to include working at least one Campaign: Science of Victory) make me believe that there is almost no need to play beyond Tier III.  In fact, past Tier IV, I was earning hardly any achievements.  Now, as a Tier III, I am average about three to four achievements per a battle.  (see attachment for proof). 

Issue #4:  I seem to make more or at least I am on par with cash earned at higher tiers, there is less stress in battles, and I am rewarded for less effort.  While I as a player am all about this novel idea, I think for Wargaming long-term, there will be undesirable second and third order effects.  For me, the first impact for me was to remain within the low tier gameplay.  I feel encouraged to do so.  Perhaps this is working as intended if newer players such as myself are to remain there for at least 200 games before spoiling the games of more experienced players with our poor/novice/noob decision-making.  As my thread title suggests, this could be the very effect Wargaming is looking for, but the unintended consequence could be that players decide not to invest in higher tier game play. 

Issue #5:  I have no plans to play in cooperative format.  In "coop" I cannot earn the experience or achievements I receive in random battles.  As such, if I am to face bots, I would rather face them and get rewarded in excess for it.  Needless to say, this has made it possible for me to avoid the system almost entirely outside of the first three games I played on the NA server.  I suspect others will quickly draw the same conclusions.

Issue #6:  I feel protected in my womb, cocoon, whatever safe space Wargaming wants to call this environment.  Why would I want to leave it?  I see no reason other than the incentive of getting new ships and ruining my stats.  And if that is the trade-off for getting to a few US Navy ships that I would love to see but do not own, I will simply resort to watching others play them on YouTube and Twitch for visual appreciation.

Gaps/Conclusion:  One of the key gaps that I cannot speak to is how my battles will change once I am past the threshold of "200" battles.  If it is anything like I am experiencing now, I will have zero incentive to play past Tier IV because I can earn good credits, achievements, and have a sense of accomplishment without ever having to face aircraft carriers, really good players or the machinations of complex decision making found in high tier game play.  Second, I did not play the game prior to update 0.9.6., so I cannot speak to how things were before.  Third, I still have under 200 battles and this is a very small and selective sample size, I need to be up front with that, in that the data is very limiting for broad decision making and critical thinking.  Lastly, I am only one player and other newer players with less experience in WASD may not have the same experience as me; I could be a fluke.  If other players begin to show improvement however, that to me, would indicate a trend and an unrealistic performance in random battles.  If and when players do decide to move on to other competitive formats of this game or just higher tier random battles, I see them becoming very frustrated as they have to contend with more complex gaming decisions, real players, and a massive reduction in stats/PR/win rate/etc.

Recommendations:  First, remove the achievements for players still in the cradle "200" battles and below.  Reduce experience earned to that of a cooperative match if there are over eight bots in the game on both sides.  Or, make the bots tougher if the rewards are to remain in place.  Consider other incentives such as flags and signals instead of giving new players like myself a premium Charleston at low tier.  It has been a cash cow and allowed me to build ships, without having to grind for it.

Attachments: 1 - Sourcing and Example Data.

Sourcing and Example Data.pptx

My only advice to you is Join a Clan that has open recruitment and save a fortune in time and money.

Clans are the best way to make good quality friendships and gain Exp through those friendships.

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6 hours ago, RipNuN2 said:

I think that is how it still works. The OP is already at T7 with the Mahan with less than 200 matches overall.

Negative, if I return to playing T4 ships and below, I am still in the protected zone.  I am avoiding it at this point, doesn't seem right taking top spots on leader boards by having defeated bots.

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2 hours ago, Praise_Ashley_Sky said:

 

Nope, everyone now sees bots there if there arent enough players for a full team for matches at t4 and below. This is something that was recently changed. Protected MM is long gone for you.

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2 hours ago, RipNuN2 said:

Nope, everyone now sees bots there if there arent enough players for a full team for matches at t4 and below. This is something that was recently changed. Protected MM is long gone for you.

agree to disagree (see attached)

shot-20.07.25_10.22.36-0965.jpg

Edited by Praise_Ashley_Sky

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12 minutes ago, Praise_Ashley_Sky said:

agree to disagree (see attached)

shot-20.07.25_10.22.36-0965.jpg

Holy cows... You are not even paired

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Supertester
1,114 posts
10,018 battles

Yes you can be an expert seal clubber by playing T4 and below at night and basically be guaranteed 11 bots on the enemy team and sometimes all 12. Yes you will get 4-5 flags sets(confederate/high caliber /kracken/double strike/ first blood) way easier than a normal pvp player. But you will not be advancing lines higher, you won't be doing the daily missions, or other events such as the dockyard. 

If I could talk to every new player that came to ships right now I'd tell them to rush to T5 in a single line to get the daily missions unlocked. (extra port slots/coal/steel/flags/ xp/free xp/ and biggest deal elite commander xp) the rest of their time should be grinding every line up through unlocking the t5 while they have the 200 game protection. 

  • Cool 1

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