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ArIskandir

Question about dodging TBs

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Applied to ships with long (mostly BBs) rudder times. 

When Torpedo Bombers line for the first drop, it is a no brainer you line towards them. At that moment you are committed to a full turn with your rudder fully tilted to that side. My question is what is the best next step considering there will be one or 2 following drops. By trial and error, I find most of the time it is safer to just keep turning and doing even full circles. If I need to change curse, I find it faster to just stop turning than starting to turn all over again. From a CV perspective, once you drop your first torps on the target, what type of manouvre is more problematic for you lining up your follow up attacks?

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49 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

Applied to ships with long (mostly BBs) rudder times. 

When Torpedo Bombers line for the first drop, it is a no brainer you line towards them. At that moment you are committed to a full turn with your rudder fully tilted to that side. My question is what is the best next step considering there will be one or 2 following drops. By trial and error, I find most of the time it is safer to just keep turning and doing even full circles. If I need to change curse, I find it faster to just stop turning than starting to turn all over again. From a CV perspective, once you drop your first torps on the target, what type of manouvre is more problematic for you lining up your follow up attacks?

I am an average cv player circle would be mine

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Before anything if you are grouped up near other ships, I'm only going to be able to get one drop off, so that is the most reliable way to prevent multiple torpedo strikes.

51 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

I find most of the time it is safer to just keep turning and doing even full circles

This is generally the best bet with most BB's. Though if going full circle isn't an option, i.e. it will make you broadside to the enemy team, sailing straight until the CV gets the next drop lined and then turning once he commits also seems to work.

Though I am a fairly average CV player, so better players may have better advice.

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As a CV my strat is typically to do a bit of a distance drop with the anticipation that I will get one hit on the bow; BUT, would also prevent you from making circles with the outlying fish.  I then circle around to hit you with three more fish as you are threading my down the throat shot.  

 

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9 minutes ago, lordholland4293 said:

If I need to change curse,

Yeah, I find I need to employ a variety of curses when under TB attack:Smile_trollface:

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2 minutes ago, SirPent13 said:

sailing straight until the CV gets the next drop lined and then turning once he commits also seems to work.

I've found this is a bad idea in ships with really bad rudder, there is not enough time to recover from the turning and start a new one before the planes are lined for the next drop, as consequence the second drop will catch you sailing straight. 

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Just now, Sabot_100 said:

Yeah, I find I need to employ a variety of curses when under TB attack:Smile_trollface:

sorry, Freudian lapse right there :Smile_teethhappy:

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7 minutes ago, Warped_1 said:

As a CV my strat is typically to do a bit of a distance drop with the anticipation that I will get one hit on the bow; BUT, would also prevent you from making circles with the outlying fish.  I then circle around to hit you with three more fish as you are threading my down the throat shot.  

 

Oh you cheeky, it that situation I usually trade for the outlying torp on my belt, the lesser of two evils. The problem is sometimes, if it is the first drop, it is not easy to differentiate if you are cheeky or just bad until it is too late.

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1 hour ago, ArIskandir said:

Applied to ships with long (mostly BBs) rudder times. 

When Torpedo Bombers line for the first drop, it is a no brainer you line towards them. At that moment you are committed to a full turn with your rudder fully tilted to that side. My question is what is the best next step considering there will be one or 2 following drops. By trial and error, I find most of the time it is safer to just keep turning and doing even full circles. If I need to change curse, I find it faster to just stop turning than starting to turn all over again. From a CV perspective, once you drop your first torps on the target, what type of manouvre is more problematic for you lining up your follow up attacks?

If I'm attacking you, and if you're still turning when I get turned around for a second pass, I'll drop the torps on the inside of your turn from astern, and ideally you'll turn into them before you can center your rudder. 

Better to off to try and keep your bow or stern on the TB's which ever way they go and force the TB's to fly around you to line up for another drop. Gives your AA longer to work, float fighter longer to work, and more time for help to arrive (be that a friendly CV with another fighter, a cruiser to soak up some more plane kills, ect...).

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5 minutes ago, SgtBeltfed said:

If I'm attacking you, and if you're still turning when I get turned around for a second pass, I'll drop the torps on the inside of your turn from astern, and ideally you'll turn into them before you can center your rudder. 

Better to off to try and keep your bow or stern on the TB's which ever way they go and force the TB's to fly around you to line up for another drop. Gives your AA longer to work, float fighter longer to work, and more time for help to arrive (be that a friendly CV with another fighter, a cruiser to soak up some more plane kills, ect...).

Ok, basically I need to be careful if you start align from astern to immediately break my turn. 

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It depends on the ship. Most DD's can straighten up and then react to the next pass. Many cruisers can do this too but the ones with slow rudders, BB's, and the cruiser like DD's are best off just staying in the turn to give a constantly changing aspect to the TB.

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2 hours ago, ArIskandir said:

Applied to ships with long (mostly BBs) rudder times. 

When Torpedo Bombers line for the first drop, it is a no brainer you line towards them. At that moment you are committed to a full turn with your rudder fully tilted to that side. My question is what is the best next step considering there will be one or 2 following drops. By trial and error, I find most of the time it is safer to just keep turning and doing even full circles. If I need to change curse, I find it faster to just stop turning than starting to turn all over again. From a CV perspective, once you drop your first torps on the target, what type of manouvre is more problematic for you lining up your follow up attacks?

Keep turning, do donuts, its what is most effective against me, I know that much.    

Often I use the first drop to attempt to force the ship into being straight so they get a full hit from the 2nd drop, its better to eat 1 from the first drop and 1 from the 2nd drop then zero from the first then 3 from the 2nd.

There are a bunch of factors involved though, how much space I have to work with, are there other AA ships to your right or left, which direction I turn after my first drop, etc etc.    The simplistic answer is you wanna be parallel to the drop as much as you can, but thats seems pretty obvious...

If you're heading west, and the planes come from south, and you turn south to dodge...and I turn east to circle around...you are better off continuing to turn, as if you stop turning, you will be full broadside to me again...if I turn west and you continue to turn, I can maybe get a good stern drop and get you to turn into the torps...there are many factors.

Edited by Zenn3k

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9 minutes ago, Zenn3k said:

Keep turning, do donuts, its what is most effective against me, I know that much.    

Often I use the first drop to attempt to force the ship into being straight so they get a full hit from the 2nd drop, its better to eat 1 from the first drop and 1 from the 2nd drop then zero from the first then 3 from the 2nd.

Ran out of TY, so you get the old :cap_like:

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13 minutes ago, Zenn3k said:

Often I use the first drop to attempt to force the ship into being straight so they get a full hit from the 2nd drop, its better to eat 1 from the first drop and 1 from the 2nd drop then zero from the first then 3 from the 2nd. 

Yes and no. In the first instance, IF you get a flood on the first pass and hit repair, you have to really hope he doesn't get a flood on the second pass. Or you can wait until the second pass is complete before hitting repair, taking lots of flooding damage, which probably exceeds the extra torp damage. Eating 3 torps at once means your repair will cover all the flooding. This assumes the CV can't come back for a third pass.

Best tactic would be to make whatever turn brings you into the AA bubble of another friendly good AA ship.

Edited by Sabot_100

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2 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

Yes and no. In the first instance, IF you get a flood on the first pass and hit repair, you have to really hope he doesn't get a flood on the second pass. Or you can wait until the second pass is complete before hitting repair, taking lots of flooding damage, which probably exceeds the extra torp damage. Eating 3 torps at once means your repair will cover all the flooding. This assumes the CV can't come back for a third pass.

Interesting calculation, even so, repairing while planes are still able to attack is always imo a last resort kind of move. 

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2 hours ago, ArIskandir said:

Applied to ships with long (mostly BBs) rudder times. 

When Torpedo Bombers line for the first drop, it is a no brainer you line towards them. At that moment you are committed to a full turn with your rudder fully tilted to that side. My question is what is the best next step considering there will be one or 2 following drops. By trial and error, I find most of the time it is safer to just keep turning and doing even full circles. If I need to change curse, I find it faster to just stop turning than starting to turn all over again. From a CV perspective, once you drop your first torps on the target, what type of manouvre is more problematic for you lining up your follow up attacks?

As crazy as i know people are gonna tell me this is, what i DO NOT DO is hit my priority sector on the 1st drop but wait and hit it just before the 2nd drop while still continueing the turn .

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2 hours ago, ArIskandir said:

Applied to ships with long (mostly BBs) rudder times. 

When Torpedo Bombers line for the first drop, it is a no brainer you line towards them. At that moment you are committed to a full turn with your rudder fully tilted to that side. My question is what is the best next step considering there will be one or 2 following drops. By trial and error, I find most of the time it is safer to just keep turning and doing even full circles. If I need to change curse, I find it faster to just stop turning than starting to turn all over again. From a CV perspective, once you drop your first torps on the target, what type of manouvre is more problematic for you lining up your follow up attacks?

If any ship commits a turn, as a CV player, you want to drop in the turn. Circling only allows the CV to circle with you. If he successfully hits you in the turn and the engine is hit, he will immediately attack again to get you before you get back up to full speed.

Typical attempted drops can be front offset and rear fade if you are caught recovering from a turn.

Then there is the behind the corner drop long timed to hit you as you round a corner.

Typical evasive action is offset front turn in, fade from rear left or right steer hard right or left. Opposite. Delayed corner stop tap down speed once and back to full again, this disrupts the timing.

The present danger to BBs is getting caught alone. Try to avoid that unless you have good rudder shift.

Great rudder is like Colorado since it can maintain 19 knots in a turn and the radius is quite tight.

If you know you are getting hit, it's best to get hit bow or stern repeatedly so you eventually saturate. If you get hit in middle, you run risk of engine incapacitation. Once you are dead in the water, the CV has you.

Contrary to popular myth, CVs will hit a stationary Target consistently, but a moving one is a challenge. Park die. Run fast, steer like you stole it and you will survive.

Speed is critical, you can upset a timed drop by just bumping down speed briefly and then speed up to full. I just jiggle the telegraph down and up. It's like popping the clutch.

I sail all ships and torpedo evasion is a thing to practice at. As I also CV, I Know the limitations, ranges, and arming distances that can be easily disrupted.

 

Practice CV torp dodging with a real opponent in the training room. It's the best way to learn. You both can discuss the thought process and the conclusions together. It will improve your game.

A CV is not to be feared but respected. It is no different than any other ship type. It is a ship type that came on to its own in WW2 and it forever changed the Navies around the world.

Understanding how they drop and how to evade it is trainable. And with the right ship and learning ability, you can be a force to be reckoned with.

A CV player will not waste his time on you if after two waves, you Matrix move the drops.

He will move on and spot you instead. A CV attacks targets of opportunity. But if you are not a cheap date, he gives up. LOL 😎

 

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2 hours ago, ArIskandir said:

Applied to ships with long (mostly BBs) rudder times. 

When Torpedo Bombers line for the first drop, it is a no brainer you line towards them. At that moment you are committed to a full turn with your rudder fully tilted to that side. My question is what is the best next step considering there will be one or 2 following drops. By trial and error, I find most of the time it is safer to just keep turning and doing even full circles. If I need to change curse, I find it faster to just stop turning than starting to turn all over again. From a CV perspective, once you drop your first torps on the target, what type of manouvre is more problematic for you lining up your follow up attacks?

It depends. In a vacuum, you should keep turning. The planes will turn towards your bow for the next drop, and turning makes them go further meaning they take more damage. Also, most enemies will turn back the way they were going, so that is what I expect.

Outside of a vacuum, you might want to turn back towards the way you are going if that is where your AA help is, or if it provides better angles vs surface fire (I will occasionally drop torps just to make a enemy choose between showing broadside to my teammates or eating the torps). Also, islands can influence your decision. If you're close enough to land that my return pass can't attack, then definitely turn back to the land. But if you're far enough from the land, you should continue turning since I'll use the land to cover my attack and can't always see the target while making my approach.

The bigger thing, especially at high tiers is turning into the torps on the first attack. You say it is a no brainer, but maybe a quarter of my enemies don't. And at high tiers, there's less likely to be a second attack.

Edited by Telastyn

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22 minutes ago, bosco1111 said:

As crazy as i know people are gonna tell me this is, what i DO NOT DO is hit my priority sector on the 1st drop but wait and hit it just before the 2nd drop while still continueing the turn .

It depends on what you are sailing. Some like the Texas can cause enough damage to make follow up passes suicidal even against tier 6 CV's.

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47 minutes ago, bosco1111 said:

As crazy as i know people are gonna tell me this is, what i DO NOT DO is hit my priority sector on the 1st drop but wait and hit it just before the 2nd drop while still continueing the turn .

Interested in hearing the logic/calculation behind this. Planning on the planes trying to turn around still in your AA bubble? Applying the damage to fewer planes?

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2 hours ago, ArIskandir said:

Oh you cheeky, it that situation I usually trade for the outlying torp on my belt, the lesser of two evils. The problem is sometimes, if it is the first drop, it is not easy to differentiate if you are cheeky or just bad until it is too late.

Certain CVs now can almost allow a CV to do the traditional X drop (Cross Drop) but typically it's on solo or lost red ships.

One thing I can tell you for certain is very few reds consider what's the alternative to dodging the hit? 

When I pick a target ship, I ping the map (F3) to indicate the ship I'm attacking. I try to pick cruisers or bbs for this, right. So next I'll come at you in some manner as to get you to turn to avoid my drop (doesn't matter the ordnance). 

What most reds forget is if they turn to avoid me they could potentially be turning their juicy broadside open to my team. My team has to be hungry of course, but I cannot lie, it's a great feeling seeing them flee from a HE drop right into citadels or worse yet, destroyer/cruiser torps. 

I'm suggesting then it my be better to avoid any course corrections unless you are sure you won't be opening yourself up to my team's shots. 

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There's nothing you can do, really, except turn the full circle and hope the CV isn't very good, especially if you are in a BB with a slow rudder. The whole thing is designed to ensure a minimum amount of arbitrary damage to get ships killed faster and players back in queue, so there is no real counter. 

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4 hours ago, ArIskandir said:

Applied to ships with long (mostly BBs) rudder times. 

When Torpedo Bombers line for the first drop, it is a no brainer you line towards them. At that moment you are committed to a full turn with your rudder fully tilted to that side. My question is what is the best next step considering there will be one or 2 following drops. By trial and error, I find most of the time it is safer to just keep turning and doing even full circles. If I need to change curse, I find it faster to just stop turning than starting to turn all over again. From a CV perspective, once you drop your first torps on the target, what type of manouvre is more problematic for you lining up your follow up attacks?

An ideal torpedo drop will be aimed just ahead of a ship and from +/- 90-degrees off of the ship's course.

As others, such as @Zenn3k, were describing, a ship traveling west east will turn towards planes coming from the north.

Then, which way the planes go affects the next decision process.
1.  Stronk AA Bubble = planes leave, now (or are shot down for being in the area too long)
2.  Survivable AA Bubble = second attack run possible if conditions permit and time is of the essence
3.  Weak AA Bubble = Oh yeah, I'm coming round for another attack

Which way do planes turn?
1.  Ship turned north while planes continued south.  Then planes turn west or east.  Pilot/player may use free-look to observe ship to make decision.
2.  If ship continued turn,  attempt to get the next drop from the inside of the turn and ahead of the ship.  The ship is slower and less able to make a course change because it is fully committed to a turn.
3.  Terrain may be a factor.  If islands block approaches for an attack-run, then planes may need to abort the follow-up attack and/or set-up an attack from a more ideal position.
4.  If ship continued north.   Planes may wind up attempting to make an attack from the stern of the ship and approaching from a 45 to 30 degree angle and attempting to aim ahead of the bow and hope the torpedoes impact the side of the ship.  Risk of this is that the ship has more time/distance to react to the attack and may more easily dodge by altering course to be traveling the same course as the torpedoes (so that the torpedoes pass the ship in a parallel course).  Fast ships may out-run slow torpedoes.

Crude illustration created on the spur of the moment enclosed.
1913306934_Torpedorundecisionprocessillustration_07-22-2020_.thumb.jpg.38c9bec9652224ebb548e757375a1627.jpg

Edited by Wolfswetpaws

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Other thoughts.

If the BB continues straight and has a weak AA bubble, I will likely turn towards their path of travel.

A west-bound BB that gets approached from the north will mean that the planes travel for a 1 to 3 km and turn west and complete a half-circle to line-up on the ship again.

1705530898_Torpedorunwhereinshipstaysoncourseandreceivesmultiplestrikes_07-22-2020_.thumb.jpg.da115b997c4a7228701ad9f4bbd58d9b.jpg

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2 hours ago, Sabot_100 said:

Interested in hearing the logic/calculation behind this. Planning on the planes trying to turn around still in your AA bubble? Applying the damage to fewer planes?

In a fast BB (I always use SGM1 in slot 4) the 1st run I can usually either dodge or close the distance to the torps so as they don't arm saving my P.S to disperse/disrupt their 2nd  run to where the speed bleedoff can allow me to, depending on how many torps are dropped, either slide in between them or off to the side or worst case take a torp on the bulge for min. dmg . Never thought about it but it is probably because i'm using my P.S. on fewer planes that makes it work lol. 

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