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Crij

Secondaries against ships off the bow

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When is WG going to fix the issue where secondaries refuse to shoot at a ship within ~5 degrees of the bow?  This is especially annoying when captaining ships like the Odin, Republique, Yamato and a couple other ships that have a superfiring secondary gun mount above the forward turrets (do superfiring stern secondaries fire directly off the stern???).  Especially with these ships there are no reasons for a no fire zone.  Even ships like the Massachusetts, California, Texas and New York shouldn't have this issue as the secondaries are far enough to the sides that they should be able to shoot almost up to 0 degrees off the bow. 

Nothing more annoying other than to be bow tanking another BB while your secondaries are silent, while the other ship is broadside and within range of the secondaries.  Heck Ive had a couple battles, where I rammed a fully broadsided enemy BB without my secondaries firing a shot, when there was plenty of ship that was exposed to their firing angles, maybe a solution would be to place 3 secondary targeting points to all the Cruiser, Battleships and Carriers (i.e. divide the superstructure into 3 zones, make the central one primary and when blocked the guns aim at the forward and aft zones) and 2 sections on Destroyers, so they will fire more often?

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Preach. 
 

IMO, secondaries need some attention from the devs. They’re fun to use but have so much potential to work better. 

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Just like your main guns, secondaries have firing arcs. If you want good firing arcs, use ships with good firing arcs like Mass.

That said, bow tanking isn't generally necessary and can be harmful even in certain T8+ BBs with more rounded bow plating, let alone T7 and below BBs that can have their bow plating overmatched fairly easily. Actually angle properly and secondaries will typically start to fire unless the angles are just that bad.

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1 hour ago, Crij said:

When is WG going to fix the issue where secondaries refuse to shoot at a ship within ~5 degrees of the bow?  This is especially annoying when captaining ships like the Odin, Republique, Yamato and a couple other ships that have a superfiring secondary gun mount above the forward turrets (do superfiring stern secondaries fire directly off the stern???).  Especially with these ships there are no reasons for a no fire zone.  Even ships like the Massachusetts, California, Texas and New York shouldn't have this issue as the secondaries are far enough to the sides that they should be able to shoot almost up to 0 degrees off the bow. 

Nothing more annoying other than to be bow tanking another BB while your secondaries are silent, while the other ship is broadside and within range of the secondaries.  Heck Ive had a couple battles, where I rammed a fully broadsided enemy BB without my secondaries firing a shot, when there was plenty of ship that was exposed to their firing angles, maybe a solution would be to place 3 secondary targeting points to all the Cruiser, Battleships and Carriers (i.e. divide the superstructure into 3 zones, make the central one primary and when blocked the guns aim at the forward and aft zones) and 2 sections on Destroyers, so they will fire more often?

With actual centerline secondaries, it shouldn't be an issue with them superfiring, and I didn't think it was. I seem to remember Yamato firing straight ahead, or at least so close to it that it didn't matter.

With ships with side mounted secondaries, that look like they should be able to fire straight ahead, there's two issues that can combine to stop secondaries from firing.

1) The distance between the secondary gun turrets across the beam of the ship, forms a fat line straight in front and behind of the ship that the secondaries will not fire in, assuming the they actually can traverse straight ahead or aft.

2) for targeting and visibility purposes, ships are a single point, which is at the midpoint of the ship and at the waterline.

If that point is inside the line extending in front of your ship, the secondaries making that line will not fire,, even if other parts of the target ship are in the line of fire of the guns.

The same is true if you get too close, if the secondaries can't depress far enough to hit the waterline, they will not fire, even if there's plenty of ship in view to hit. If this is happening at point blank range, this may be happening to your centerline secondaries as well. (Your own bow is blocking the line of sight to the midpoint at the waterline of the target.)

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19 hours ago, SgtBeltfed said:

With actual centerline secondaries, it shouldn't be an issue with them superfiring, and I didn't think it was. I seem to remember Yamato firing straight ahead, or at least so close to it that it didn't matter.

With ships with side mounted secondaries, that look like they should be able to fire straight ahead, there's two issues that can combine to stop secondaries from firing.

1) The distance between the secondary gun turrets across the beam of the ship, forms a fat line straight in front and behind of the ship that the secondaries will not fire in, assuming the they actually can traverse straight ahead or aft.

2) for targeting and visibility purposes, ships are a single point, which is at the midpoint of the ship and at the waterline.

If that point is inside the line extending in front of your ship, the secondaries making that line will not fire,, even if other parts of the target ship are in the line of fire of the guns.

The same is true if you get too close, if the secondaries can't depress far enough to hit the waterline, they will not fire, even if there's plenty of ship in view to hit. If this is happening at point blank range, this may be happening to your centerline secondaries as well. (Your own bow is blocking the line of sight to the midpoint at the waterline of the target.)

With the Odin, I had a battleship 8km dead ahead and the forward secondary turret was quiet.  I have him configured for 11 km secondaries.  I forget which ship I was facing but it was extra annoying as the enemy BB was under 800hp, and another player killed her while I was waiting for the main guns to reload.  The nearly 14+ lost shots would have sunk the ship (23 sec main reload, 3.4 second 2ndary reload [I forget if my Captain had AR] x 2 barrels)

The bow plating was surviving direct hits with minimal hp damage (probably ricochet into superstructure or turret) from that ship, and angling had incurred more damage from earlier shots as I was turning into her.  Sometimes it is advantageous to bow tank even if you know the other can penetrate, because of sigma and thinking thin..., aka smaller presented target receives fewer hits and you get a free ship washing...

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21 hours ago, celticboy27 said:

Preach. 
 

IMO, secondaries need some attention from the devs. They’re fun to use but have so much potential to work better. 

Why do you think I have Massachusetts, Massachusetts B, Graf Zeppelin, Graf Zeppelin B, Bismark, Tirpitz, Georgia, & Odin, all configured with long range secondaries, and half have IFHE (couple captains waiting for xp)????  :cap_rambo::cap_rambo::cap_haloween::cap_rambo::cap_rambo:

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My Odin's superfiring secondary guns were firing directly forward last night.

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4 hours ago, Crij said:

With the Odin, I had a battleship 8km dead ahead and the forward secondary turret was quiet.  I have him configured for 11 km secondaries.  I forget which ship I was facing but it was extra annoying as the enemy BB was under 800hp, and another player killed her while I was waiting for the main guns to reload.  The nearly 14+ lost shots would have sunk the ship (23 sec main reload, 3.4 second 2ndary reload [I forget if my Captain had AR] x 2 barrels)

The bow plating was surviving direct hits with minimal hp damage (probably ricochet into superstructure or turret) from that ship, and angling had incurred more damage from earlier shots as I was turning into her.  Sometimes it is advantageous to bow tank even if you know the other can penetrate, because of sigma and thinking thin..., aka smaller presented target receives fewer hits and you get a free ship washing...

Actually dead on bow tanking usually isn't advantageous, especially from tier 7 and up where you can run into 460mm guns that will just overmatch the bow plating. They can't overmatch your belt if you're well angled.

 I have to wonder how far off centerline you have to get for that not to happen. The target is clearly not in the shadow of the bow at 8km, so that shouldn't have been an issue. I'm usually at a slight angle when using secondaries, both to get a couple extra guns in and to be more durable, so I've never had that problem with centerline secondaries.

I wouldn't even start thinking that 14 extra shots from the secondaries would have done the job though, they have to hit, and hit somewhere they can actually pen. I've been brawling a lot with my Friedrich der Große in Co-Op (needed 1k secondary hits in a German ship, and wasn't going to get drunk and do it in the Zeppelin in randoms.) Most secondary hits didn't actually do damage, because they were hitting the belt, the turrets, or whatever else wasn't getting penetrated by a low performance 150mm gun.

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21 hours ago, SgtBeltfed said:

I wouldn't even start thinking that 14 extra shots from the secondaries would have done the job though, they have to hit, and hit somewhere they can actually pen. I've been brawling a lot with my Friedrich der Große in Co-Op (needed 1k secondary hits in a German ship, and wasn't going to get drunk and do it in the Zeppelin in randoms.) Most secondary hits didn't actually do damage, because they were hitting the belt, the turrets, or whatever else wasn't getting penetrated by a low performance 150mm gun.

Don't forget since Odin is a German ship he gets extra penetration, 1/4 caliber instead of the 1/5 or 1/6 everyone else has, so the 128mm will pen 32mm and the 150mm will pen 38mm, then add IFHE (+25% to penetration)... and those numbers become 40mm & 48mm, which opens up a larger can of Wh**p A**.   :fish_cute_2:.  That is what makes the GZ extra fun when top tier, no one expects how hard she can hit with extended range and IFHE.

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23 hours ago, Helstrem said:

My Odin's superfiring secondary guns were firing directly forward last night.

Will have to experiment next time I go out in her, maybe something else was going on that I didn't notice.  Do you remember if you were you pointed at the center of the ship's broadside or more towards an end?

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1 hour ago, Crij said:

Don't forget since Odin is a German ship he gets extra penetration, 1/4 caliber instead of the 1/5 or 1/6 everyone else has, so the 128mm will pen 32mm and the 150mm will pen 38mm, then add IFHE (+25% to penetration)... and those numbers become 40mm & 48mm, which opens up a larger can of Wh**p A**.   :fish_cute_2:.  That is what makes the GZ extra fun when top tier, no one expects how hard she can hit with extended range and IFHE.

I've got a GZ, and she's especially vulnerable to pumping secondary rounds into belt armor, because she's so accurate. DD's, ships with mostly submerged belts, she eats for breakfast.

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1 hour ago, Crij said:

Will have to experiment next time I go out in her, maybe something else was going on that I didn't notice.  Do you remember if you were you pointed at the center of the ship's broadside or more towards an end?

I don't recall the exact position of the enemy, just that I saw the shells fly straight forward over my bow.  I do have manual secondaries if that matters.

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