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Anij

Fixing the CV – DD interaction- 4 simple steps

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Here is how WG may want to fix the CV DD interaction

 

Fighter Consumable

It’s mostly useless and that’s why I use it as a spotting tool rather than an air defense tool. Sure in some situations I will drop a fighter over a friendly ship but that’s rare. Some DDs (the good ones) have made it clear that I am not to drop the fighter over them because all it does is tell the enemy team CV wher ethey are. I make it a point of telling the CV not to drop fighters on me unless I ask for it. I especially do not want fighters on my DD  when I am capping because now not only does the enemy CV know where I am but so do the enemy DDs who will spam torpedoes at me.

 

Why its weak

The flight circle is too small

The flight time and flight path are predictable. You time your CV strike when the fighter consumable is closest to you. Like that the fighters will be flying away when you enter the CAP radius and you can make a clean strike with no harassment from fighters. Yes they will shoot some of your planes down as you leave the target but who cares. It’s called the F key.

 

To improve the overall interaction for everyone and not just DDs here are 5 steps WG should take..

 

  1. Fix the fighter Consumable. Make it more dynamic and responsive and expand the CAP circle and if possible have them fly a oval or figure 8 path
  2. Double the number of fighter consumables per CV
  3. A fighter consumable that is dropped by a CV over a friendly ship locks on to the friendly ship and stays with it for the duration of its existence
  4. and finally reduce the Rocket loadout, lethality and preferably remove them from the game. Give all CVs 1x torpedo squadron, 1x HE bomb squadron, 1x AP Bomb Squadron

 

At some point if this was implemented WG could than adjust AA accordingly.

 

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31 minutes ago, Anij said:

Here is how WG may want to fix the CV DD interaction

 

Fighter Consumable

It’s mostly useless and that’s why I use it as a spotting tool rather than an air defense tool. Sure in some situations I will drop a fighter over a friendly ship but that’s rare. Some DDs (the good ones) have made it clear that I am not to drop the fighter over them because all it does is tell the enemy team CV wher ethey are. I make it a point of telling the CV not to drop fighters on me unless I ask for it. I especially do not want fighters on my DD  when I am capping because now not only does the enemy CV know where I am but so do the enemy DDs who will spam torpedoes at me.

 

Why its weak

The flight circle is too small

The flight time and flight path are predictable. You time your CV strike when the fighter consumable is closest to you. Like that the fighters will be flying away when you enter the CAP radius and you can make a clean strike with no harassment from fighters. Yes they will shoot some of your planes down as you leave the target but who cares. It’s called the F key.

 

To improve the overall interaction for everyone and not just DDs here are 5 steps WG should take..

 

  1. Fix the fighter Consumable. Make it more dynamic and responsive and expand the CAP circle and if possible have them fly a oval or figure 8 path
  2. Double the number of fighter consumables per CV
  3. A fighter consumable that is dropped by a CV over a friendly ship locks on to the friendly ship and stays with it for the duration of its existence
  4. and finally reduce the Rocket loadout, lethality and preferably remove them from the game. Give all CVs 1x torpedo squadron, 1x HE bomb squadron, 1x AP Bomb Squadron

 

At some point if this was implemented WG could than adjust AA accordingly.

 

There are a few things I found that people don't understand with the fighter.

1. It takes time to deploy. When you drop the marker it takes several seconds for the fighter to arrive on station and start patrolling. It needs to be dropped (or called by the ship if it is a floatplane) before the attack planes are coming in. If it is used too late the attacking planes can boost in, attack, and boost out without the fighters engaging them. 

2. The fighters have an actual speed rating. It is possible for faster planes to simply outrun them (GZ and Indom in particular can) or at least drag them from their patrol area so that they are killed by AA from the CV's team. 

3. It is a bot and has all the brains of a bot. It isn't so much the patrol pattern but the fact that it has predictable behavior. I dump enough planes from the attack wave and leave myself with just enough to lose some on the way in and still have enough to make one drop. If I have 2 planes left after the attack which are crippled, the bot fighters will still expend themselves on them even though the attack is over and the AA would've finished them. You can also send less valuable planes in as sacrifices for the fighters to expend themselves on, then bring out the ones you actually want to use. You can exploit their predictable behavior. 

4. Their capability is limited. X fighters will basically kill X attacking planes. They don't care about plane health or armor. I believe ship-launched floatplane fighters normally come in packs of 3 or 4 if I remember correctly. Carrier fighter consumables are larger and Enterprise has an enormous one of like 10 or something as I recall. You can budget your attack for those and just be prepared to accept the losses. Kaga for example doesn't care about anything but Enterprise's fighters because her groups are so big with cheap planes. Saipan, and Indom for example have tiny groups with powerful planes so fighters really hurt them and they have to be careful around them. 

That being said, they are a useful tool. I found they are more of a mild deterrent than anything else especially if not backed up by solid AA. They'll make a good CV captain think about how to attack you, or possibly come back later when the fighters are down, but that is about it. I don't think they will expand the patrol radius because then they become a very powerful anti-DD tool. I do think that the fact that Enterprise has such a huge patrol radius compared to all the others is an issue though. I think they could at least increase the patrol radius of the others to match hers even if they don't increase the actual fighter strength. 

As for the rockets I think turning the reticules so they all face the same way is a start. I've been asking for that for a while. Now at least DDs know which way to turn to reduce or avoid the attack. I think they next need to shrink some of them and make them more elongated like the Germans and the HVAR rockets so that you have to do a good job of aiming to get hits on DDs. Some of them have near circular patterns or big orvals and can just saturate the area for a handful of hits. There's no dodging that. If the reticules are elongated, however, the planes have to line up correctly over the DD and the DD can actually dodge the attack by turning. 

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I would add that Carriers should hunt Carriers FIRST....  In real life, that was the goal:  find them (Planes and Subs) and send attack aircraft to kill them - - - notice, there is no mention of surface ships in that concept.....

I would change the game dynamics that you have to achieve "air superiority" first, before you get into serious damage values.   Kill the enemy carrier first should have enormous rewards......

Why is it everyone else has to fight it out and carriers get to cherry pick??  I'd change that.  It's what really happened in history..........and, it would be a lot of fun in game because you'd have to think of ways to protect you carrier(s) right from the start.   Then, Tactics will be required to initially protect and then, to survive losing your carrier to the other carrier......

Right now, all carriers do is hide and isn't that what we hate about surface ships most game???  There is a double standard because there is no "real value" attacking a Carrier with another Carrier from moment 1......  Make that a condition for Carrier "value" and then, we have a game where ships against ships have skill and Carriers have to Fight Carriers to just break even.........if they win that fight, ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, a lot of value.  Would make carrier play more difficult, wouldn't it...!!!!  And, a lot more real........

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3 hours ago, Asym_KS said:

I would add that Carriers should hunt Carriers FIRST....  In real life, that was the goal:  find them (Planes and Subs) and send attack aircraft to kill them - - - notice, there is no mention of surface ships in that concept.....

I would change the game dynamics that you have to achieve "air superiority" first, before you get into serious damage values.   Kill the enemy carrier first should have enormous rewards......

Why is it everyone else has to fight it out and carriers get to cherry pick??  I'd change that.  It's what really happened in history..........and, it would be a lot of fun in game because you'd have to think of ways to protect you carrier(s) right from the start.   Then, Tactics will be required to initially protect and then, to survive losing your carrier to the other carrier......

Right now, all carriers do is hide and isn't that what we hate about surface ships most game???  There is a double standard because there is no "real value" attacking a Carrier with another Carrier from moment 1......  Make that a condition for Carrier "value" and then, we have a game where ships against ships have skill and Carriers have to Fight Carriers to just break even.........if they win that fight, ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, a lot of value.  Would make carrier play more difficult, wouldn't it...!!!!  And, a lot more real........

WG designed so CVs cant kill CVs ( well they made it really hard for a CV to kill a CV) and this is to address the issue of good CV players sinking a not so good CV player. I understand it from a certain point of view but I agree there needs to be more CV versus CV action and it should be encouraged. Of course if u want a CV dead just ask a BB with long range guns and spot the enemy CV till hes dead..i ve done this twice now and the enemy CV died with 5-7 minutes of game starting

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4 hours ago, Tzarevitch said:

There are a few things I found that people don't understand with the fighter.

1. It takes time to deploy. When you drop the marker it takes several seconds for the fighter to arrive on station and start patrolling. It needs to be dropped (or called by the ship if it is a floatplane) before the attack planes are coming in. If it is used too late the attacking planes can boost in, attack, and boost out without the fighters engaging them. 

2. The fighters have an actual speed rating. It is possible for faster planes to simply outrun them (GZ and Indom in particular can) or at least drag them from their patrol area so that they are killed by AA from the CV's team. 

3. It is a bot and has all the brains of a bot. It isn't so much the patrol pattern but the fact that it has predictable behavior. I dump enough planes from the attack wave and leave myself with just enough to lose some on the way in and still have enough to make one drop. If I have 2 planes left after the attack which are crippled, the bot fighters will still expend themselves on them even though the attack is over and the AA would've finished them. You can also send less valuable planes in as sacrifices for the fighters to expend themselves on, then bring out the ones you actually want to use. You can exploit their predictable behavior. 

4. Their capability is limited. X fighters will basically kill X attacking planes. They don't care about plane health or armor. I believe ship-launched floatplane fighters normally come in packs of 3 or 4 if I remember correctly. Carrier fighter consumables are larger and Enterprise has an enormous one of like 10 or something as I recall. You can budget your attack for those and just be prepared to accept the losses. Kaga for example doesn't care about anything but Enterprise's fighters because her groups are so big with cheap planes. Saipan, and Indom for example have tiny groups with powerful planes so fighters really hurt them and they have to be careful around them. 

That being said, they are a useful tool. I found they are more of a mild deterrent than anything else especially if not backed up by solid AA. They'll make a good CV captain think about how to attack you, or possibly come back later when the fighters are down, but that is about it. I don't think they will expand the patrol radius because then they become a very powerful anti-DD tool. I do think that the fact that Enterprise has such a huge patrol radius compared to all the others is an issue though. I think they could at least increase the patrol radius of the others to match hers even if they don't increase the actual fighter strength. 

As for the rockets I think turning the reticules so they all face the same way is a start. I've been asking for that for a while. Now at least DDs know which way to turn to reduce or avoid the attack. I think they next need to shrink some of them and make them more elongated like the Germans and the HVAR rockets so that you have to do a good job of aiming to get hits on DDs. Some of them have near circular patterns or big orvals and can just saturate the area for a handful of hits. There's no dodging that. If the reticules are elongated, however, the planes have to line up correctly over the DD and the DD can actually dodge the attack by turning. 

really great explanation...:Smile_great:

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5 hours ago, Tzarevitch said:

There are a few things I found that people don't understand with the fighter.

1. It takes time to deploy. When you drop the marker it takes several seconds for the fighter to arrive on station and start patrolling. It needs to be dropped (or called by the ship if it is a floatplane) before the attack planes are coming in. If it is used too late the attacking planes can boost in, attack, and boost out without the fighters engaging them. 

2. The fighters have an actual speed rating. It is possible for faster planes to simply outrun them (GZ and Indom in particular can) or at least drag them from their patrol area so that they are killed by AA from the CV's team. 

3. It is a bot and has all the brains of a bot. It isn't so much the patrol pattern but the fact that it has predictable behavior. I dump enough planes from the attack wave and leave myself with just enough to lose some on the way in and still have enough to make one drop. If I have 2 planes left after the attack which are crippled, the bot fighters will still expend themselves on them even though the attack is over and the AA would've finished them. You can also send less valuable planes in as sacrifices for the fighters to expend themselves on, then bring out the ones you actually want to use. You can exploit their predictable behavior. 

4. Their capability is limited. X fighters will basically kill X attacking planes. They don't care about plane health or armor. I believe ship-launched floatplane fighters normally come in packs of 3 or 4 if I remember correctly. Carrier fighter consumables are larger and Enterprise has an enormous one of like 10 or something as I recall. You can budget your attack for those and just be prepared to accept the losses. Kaga for example doesn't care about anything but Enterprise's fighters because her groups are so big with cheap planes. Saipan, and Indom for example have tiny groups with powerful planes so fighters really hurt them and they have to be careful around them. 

That being said, they are a useful tool. I found they are more of a mild deterrent than anything else especially if not backed up by solid AA. They'll make a good CV captain think about how to attack you, or possibly come back later when the fighters are down, but that is about it. I don't think they will expand the patrol radius because then they become a very powerful anti-DD tool. I do think that the fact that Enterprise has such a huge patrol radius compared to all the others is an issue though. I think they could at least increase the patrol radius of the others to match hers even if they don't increase the actual fighter strength. 

As for the rockets I think turning the reticules so they all face the same way is a start. I've been asking for that for a while. Now at least DDs know which way to turn to reduce or avoid the attack. I think they next need to shrink some of them and make them more elongated like the Germans and the HVAR rockets so that you have to do a good job of aiming to get hits on DDs. Some of them have near circular patterns or big orvals and can just saturate the area for a handful of hits. There's no dodging that. If the reticules are elongated, however, the planes have to line up correctly over the DD and the DD can actually dodge the attack by turning. 

 

39 minutes ago, Anij said:

really great explanation...:Smile_great:

Just as a side note that is missing here.  A couple of months ago during either a test announcement or a patch announcement  WG openly stated that fighters have a built in delay when reacting to enemy incursion into their circle.  It was 5 seconds. The delay is there and hard coded. 

 

Edit:  Ok I found reference to it here and edited in the correct number of seconds: 

https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/130155-st-patrol-fighters-consumable-loop-and-bering-sea-maps/

 

Edited by eviltane

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1 hour ago, Anij said:

WG designed so CVs cant kill CVs ( well they made it really hard for a CV to kill a CV) and this is to address the issue of good CV players sinking a not so good CV player. I understand it from a certain point of view but I agree there needs to be more CV versus CV action and it should be encouraged. Of course if u want a CV dead just ask a BB with long range guns and spot the enemy CV till hes dead..i ve done this twice now and the enemy CV died with 5-7 minutes of game starting

And, if that is the reason, there is even less reasons to play a CV or enter games with Carriers.....  Last thing I want are weapons systems I can't directly fight:  Carriers because AA is automatic ; and, Radar, since there is nothing to combat that consumable directly.   Hundreds, if not thousands of us have left Randoms.  My original clan left the game.  Carriers directly fighting Carriers at game start would help the surface battle develop and allow for "teams" or, as in reality "collections of players" time to engage in some logical manner versus having Carrier's and Radar dictate what they can do......   Won't happen but, it's cost this game a lot of lost income and driven off more people than you can imagine.....

Figured I'd suggest it versus complaining.

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6 hours ago, Asym_KS said:

And, if that is the reason, there is even less reasons to play a CV or enter games with Carriers.....  Last thing I want are weapons systems I can't directly fight:  Carriers because AA is automatic ; and, Radar, since there is nothing to combat that consumable directly.   Hundreds, if not thousands of us have left Randoms.  My original clan left the game.  Carriers directly fighting Carriers at game start would help the surface battle develop and allow for "teams" or, as in reality "collections of players" time to engage in some logical manner versus having Carrier's and Radar dictate what they can do......   Won't happen but, it's cost this game a lot of lost income and driven off more people than you can imagine.....

Figured I'd suggest it versus complaining.

There's a lot about CVs that non-CV players don't really understand and this generates a kind of mystique that isn't warranted or accurate. Carriers can attack each other just fine, it just isn't cost effective to do so most of the time unless the enemy CV moved into a vulnerable position. Getting past the other CV's CAP is no more difficult than getting past any other fighters. CVs don't attack each other much for three reasons:

1. CVs start at the back of the map so they are VERY far from each other by default. This translates to a lot of time your planes are spending traveling just to make the attack. Long flight times directly reduces the number of attacks you make and thus your score at the end of the game.

2. CVs are almost never capping therefore they are a low priority to winning a game.

3. CVs are very large and with fairly high AA. There are a couple of exceptions (Saipan is probably the biggest), but by T8 CVs are nearly as large as BBs, and are correspondingly tough to put down. 

Number 1 is the biggie. It's simply a matter of poor use of time. I'll absolutely attack the other CV if he comes close to the front but I'm not sending my planes on a fly-around to chase him if there is a better target. Helping my team spot whatever is trying to cap, attacking whatever is trying to cap, or covering my teammates trying to cap are all far more productive things for the CV to do and directly contribute to winning. Sending your planes on 2 minute chase into the back to attack the other CV in a 20 minute match is a recipe for a loss. That's basically 1/10 of the match where you did nothing useful. 

Wargaming never prevented CVs from attacking each other in the rework. People keep saying that, but that is not accurate.  What they did was make it so that CVs aren't required to counter each other like in the RTS days by taking away the need to defend your allies (and yourself) with manually controlled fighters. Back then if you had a skilled CV and the other side had a novice CV the entire side with the novice was screwed. You had no prayer. There were a couple of AA ships that could defend themselves if fully specced but everyone else was hosed because you needed your CV to be skilled enough to control his fighters to stop the other CV. They took the the direct interaction of player controlled planes against each other away, reduced the individual CV strike to about what a normal BB ship volley can do, and limited CVs to attacking with 1 squadron at a time rather than the entire strike force on the deck. That's it. CVs can attack each other much the same as with any other ship, it just usually isn't a productive thing to do because of flight time. Attacking the other CV is nearly the same as attacking any other ship. There are only 3 real differences:

1. CVs can't control their dam/con. It triggers automatically and has a lengthy immunity period. Once that period is over though the CV can catch fire and flood normally until it resets. You can attack the CV, get the dam/con to trigger, wait, then attack it again and it can't put the fire out. I've burned out in a CV before. It's rare but it happens.

2. CVs have a combat air patrol (CAP) similar to float plane fighters other ships have. The big difference is the CV's CAP is larger than the group of floatplane fighters ships normally launch, and like with the dam/con the CV player can't control it. It launches automatically when the trigger conditions are met. Like with dam/con, you can bait the automatic system to launch the fighters at an inopportune time if you know what you are doing. 

3. CVs can't manage their AA sectors without abandoning the fighters and returning to take control of the CV. In practice that means that CVs almost never boost their AA sectors like other ships do, and they run on default AA. They also almost never have captain points or upgrades boosting AA. Some have really high base AA numbers but it isn't anything that high-tier cruisers can't beat. 

Like I said, Wargaming did not make it so CVs can't attack each other. They absolutely can and do. It's just that in most games the other CV is an impractical target. 

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The proposed changes to the fighters doesn't much regarding DD vs. CV interaction. It relies on the flawed concept of CVs constantly providing protection to the DD (or anyone really).

The enemy CV can simply just fly away and strike another ship or bait the fighters with a reduced squad. 

Increasing number of fighters also practically won't do anything. Fighters shoot down bombers in a 1:1 ratio, and CV fighter squads are already good enough. T8 CVs have 5, T10 has 7 per fighter squad. An easy counterplay is to simply predrop before striking. In a 9 bomber squad, 3 planes are saved though predrop, 3 are safe once the bomb/torp is released (fighters do not chase these planes), 3 are dead to fighters. Increasing the number of fighters does nothing. In fact, the DD is nerfed since he has to shoot down more CV fighters to go unspotted. 

Removing rockets is the only step that would have a real impact, but WG won't remove rockets as they believe its part of their envisioned CV game design. I consider this an unrealistic proposal. 

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17 minutes ago, Tzarevitch said:

There's a lot about CVs that non-CV players don't really understand and this generates a kind of mystique that isn't warranted or accurate. Carriers can attack each other just fine, it just isn't cost effective to do so most of the time unless the enemy CV moved into a vulnerable position. Getting past the other CV's CAP is no more difficult than getting past any other fighters. CVs don't attack each other much for three reasons:

1. CVs start at the back of the map so they are VERY far from each other by default. This translates to a lot of time your planes are spending traveling just to make the attack. Long flight times directly reduces the number of attacks you make and thus your score at the end of the game.

2. CVs are almost never capping therefore they are a low priority to winning a game.

3. CVs are very large and with fairly high AA. There are a couple of exceptions (Saipan is probably the biggest), but by T8 CVs are nearly as large as BBs, and are correspondingly tough to put down. 

Number 1 is the biggie. It's simply a matter of poor use of time. I'll absolutely attack the other CV if he comes close to the front but I'm not sending my planes on a fly-around to chase him if there is a better target. Helping my team spot whatever is trying to cap, attacking whatever is trying to cap, or covering my teammates trying to cap are all far more productive things for the CV to do and directly contribute to winning. Sending your planes on 2 minute chase into the back to attack the other CV in a 20 minute match is a recipe for a loss. That's basically 1/10 of the match where you did nothing useful. 

Wargaming never prevented CVs from attacking each other in the rework. People keep saying that, but that is not accurate.  What they did was make it so that CVs aren't required to counter each other like in the RTS days by taking away the need to defend your allies (and yourself) with manually controlled fighters. Back then if you had a skilled CV and the other side had a novice CV the entire side with the novice was screwed. You had no prayer. There were a couple of AA ships that could defend themselves if fully specced but everyone else was hosed because you needed your CV to be skilled enough to control his fighters to stop the other CV. They took the the direct interaction of player controlled planes against each other away, reduced the individual CV strike to about what a normal BB ship volley can do, and limited CVs to attacking with 1 squadron at a time rather than the entire strike force on the deck. That's it. CVs can attack each other much the same as with any other ship, it just usually isn't a productive thing to do because of flight time. Attacking the other CV is nearly the same as attacking any other ship. There are only 3 real differences:

1. CVs can't control their dam/con. It triggers automatically and has a lengthy immunity period. Once that period is over though the CV can catch fire and flood normally until it resets. You can attack the CV, get the dam/con to trigger, wait, then attack it again and it can't put the fire out. I've burned out in a CV before. It's rare but it happens.

2. CVs have a combat air patrol (CAP) similar to float plane fighters other ships have. The big difference is the CV's CAP is larger than the group of floatplane fighters ships normally launch, and like with the dam/con the CV player can't control it. It launches automatically when the trigger conditions are met. Like with dam/con, you can bait the automatic system to launch the fighters at an inopportune time if you know what you are doing. 

3. CVs can't manage their AA sectors without abandoning the fighters and returning to take control of the CV. In practice that means that CVs almost never boost their AA sectors like other ships do, and they run on default AA. They also almost never have captain points or upgrades boosting AA. Some have really high base AA numbers but it isn't anything that high-tier cruisers can't beat. 

Like I said, Wargaming did not make it so CVs can't attack each other. They absolutely can and do. It's just that in most games the other CV is an impractical target. 

Good job....good reading....  And, I believe you are correct and it is the real problem:  Carriers need to find the enemy carrier and earn "air superiority" BEFORE they can earn meaningful ship damage potentials.   That is what happened in WW2 !  Carriers MUST COMPETE !!! 

Carriers/Subs searched for Carriers and when found, attack aircraft went after the Carriers.  Once Air Superiority was achieve, the surface ships were next.....  What we have now is a way to create a Free-For-All environment where meta's can drive sales.  Remember, we are still selling new Carriers !!!  At some point, there won't be enough players in Randoms........then, maybe, 3x3 carriers can have it out.  I won't be there though.

Thank you for the explanation !

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How about no? How about we stop this fallacy that it's ok for CVs to have planes that are suited to attacking BBs and cruisers, but not DDs? How about we stop trying to coddle what has historically been the most important and (disproportionately) influential class in the game?

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1 hour ago, SkaerKrow said:

How about no? How about we stop this fallacy that it's ok for CVs to have planes that are suited to attacking BBs and cruisers, but not DDs? How about we stop trying to coddle what has historically been the most important and (disproportionately) influential class in the game?

 

You are aware that destroyers have the highest skill floor out of any class in the game, right?

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1 hour ago, SkaerKrow said:

How about we stop trying to coddle what has historically been the most important and (disproportionately) influential class in the game?

I agree, it's ridiculous all the bonuses the developers give CVs just because they want their precious CV rework to be popular.

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