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dimzzy

Gunboating in Z-46/52

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I've finished Z-23 grind and now preparing my new shiny Z-46. I actually liked Z-23 and did rather well in this DD. I was focused on catching and outplaying enemy DDs and ultimately cap control, hence this build:

https://wowsft.com/ship?index=PGSD108&modules=22221&upgrades=124220&commander=PCW001&skills=3223502850&ar=100&consumables=1111&pos=0

Basically I was exploiting concealment+rpf+hydro+smoke to sneak on my targets.

When I watched how people play Z-46 I noticed that many pick AFT and I would assume BFT and try to maximize her guns potential. I tried to reverse engineer @DolphinPrincess build and I'm pretty sure it looks like this:

https://wowsft.com/ship?index=PGSD109&modules=12221&upgrades=123221&commander=PGW103&skills=275922945&ar=100&consumables=1111&pos=0

I think I'd like to go this way but what scares me is that I could be easily ambushed or pushed away by stealthier DDs that choose to use torps. So I'm thinking to swap SI+DE for RPF+LS. RPF enables many interesting plays for me so I value it quite high; I'm not sure how it would do with 6.6km concealment though. Here is what I have in mind:

https://wowsft.com/ship?index=PGSD109&modules=12221&upgrades=124221&commander=PCW001&skills=1343406081&ar=100&consumables=1111&pos=0

So what are your thoughts? What do you think is the best setup to unlock Z-46 potential?

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I play them both as a hybrid, the AP is great against big ships. RPF I haven't found much use for but it you plan on DD hunting then it is good. 

 

Concealment is 5.9 on the 46 and 6.1 on the Z-52. Which isn't bad , the Z-52 is a bully just have to be aware of bad guy cruisers.  

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I don't personally run AFT on Z-46, since it already has decent base range and AFT increases your overall detectability upon firing.

This is how I setup Z-46 (and Z-52):

Capture.JPG.b3eda1d9e4354a4d8c8ff8072c5bc9ad.JPG

Of course, run the additional hydro duration module for each if you have one or can afford the coal.

It's weird, but I actually prefer Z-46 to Z-52 overall.  It has 90% of the attributes of its T10 cousin, but with better concealment and agility, in a slightly smaller package.

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I finished my Z-46 grind with 142k average damage and 72% win rate, enough to be #1 global

https://na.wows-numbers.com/ship/4180555568,Z-46/

Not taking concealment expert on Z-46 is actually SAFER than taking it, here is why:

First of all, Z-46 have a DPM of 135.5k. For a comparison, the Japanese T9 torpedoboat, a line known for having weak guns, have a DPM of 135.5k.

Yes, even the Yugumo out guns the Z-46. The recent buff giving it 32mm pen is fantastic against cruisers and battleships but its irrelevant against destroyers since you pen them regardless.

So do you really want to run into something like a Friesland that have 233.3k DPM?

By not taking concealment expert, you have a detection of 6.6km instead of 6km. 

So when you run into an enemy destroyer, you will be detected at 6.6km and be able to react and turn away / smoke 

Against ships like Friesland, if you react at 6km, it will be too late and you will take much more damage than had you turned away at 6.6km.

Remember, being detected or not is critical information. Concealment is nice, but over reliance on it often leads to death. As seen by all the people who think radar is a problem.

I have 2 uploaded replays:

 

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5.9 not 6 but to each his own all points raised are valid. I just prefer torping so I like conceal.

 

The Z-46 does feel more comfortable that the Z-52 I must admit. and two rear turrets are very nice when kiting away.

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47 minutes ago, DolphinPrincess said:

Concealment is nice, but over reliance on it often leads to death.

Why not RPF though? I value it because it's possible to torp based on RPF, to angle preemptively against torps and generally avoid ambushes by other DDs/hunt them more effectively. Do you think SI+DE worth more than RPF+LS? 

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I don't think DE is better that RPF, I don't use RPF for torping.  I use it to know where the closest enemy is and tell my team mates that info, RPF also make the other DD you have located more careful.  

 

I just don't use it on German DDs, for me I will increase my torp reload or gun reload. There is no wrong in this what is your style and you preferred way to play, I like flexibly to be a gun boat sometime and a torp boat sometime so I like hybrid

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38 minutes ago, dimzzy said:

Why not RPF though? I value it because it's possible to torp based on RPF, to angle preemptively against torps and generally avoid ambushes by other DDs/hunt them more effectively. Do you think SI+DE worth more than RPF+LS? 

RPF is very costly at 4pts and only provides information. Good players will probably not need this extra info and will use the 4 skill points for combat oriented skills like DE and SI. 

DP's build heavily emphasizes firepower for a gunboat build, which is why he does not take RPF, CE, or LS. Remember, he builds his DDs for maximum firepower, not for typical DD roles. 

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5 minutes ago, vikingno2 said:

I don't think DE is better that RPF, I don't use RPF for torping.  I use it to know where the closest enemy is and tell my team mates that info, RPF also make the other DD you have located more careful.  

 

I just don't use it on German DDs, for me I will increase my torp reload or gun reload. There is no wrong in this what is your style and you preferred way to play, I like flexibly to be a gun boat sometime and a torp boat sometime so I like hybrid

But that's the whole point of this max-gunboat build: DE and BFT act as multipliers, you land more shells and each shell has higher chance to start fire, increasing the volume of damage you do. I'm pretty sure @DolphinPrincess also uses ASM1 instead of TTM1 to maximize the number of shells she can land on targets which means more damage volume. And Gunther L. is the best captain for this build because of Iron Strike.

Again, I'm pretty tempted to respec my captain like this but I'm scared of being ambushed without RPF. I guess I just have to try and stop being [edited] )))

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If I am in a German DD, I am hunting other DDs. I plan on killing them outright not burning them and because my AP is so good I will use it allot. Just don't think its worth the 3 points in my opinion .

 

I an not a great DD player but not bad in the Z-46 I have a little over 300 games, little over 55% and 41k average,  Z-52  372 games about 57% and 41k average. I have played around with the builds quite a bit and for me well I just don't get much out of DE for the Germans but that just my preference.

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9 hours ago, dimzzy said:

Why not RPF though? I value it because it's possible to torp based on RPF, to angle preemptively against torps and generally avoid ambushes by other DDs/hunt them more effectively. Do you think SI+DE worth more than RPF+LS? 

A captain have a maximum of 19 points

If you take AFT, that means you have taken a 1 point skill, a 2 point skill, and a 3 point skill for a total of 10 points with 9 remaining.

Now if you take RPF this makes 14 total with 5 remaining, which means you can only take 1 more 3 point skill

If you dont take RPF you would have 9 point remaining, giving you the ability to take 3, 3 point skills.

Which means you are sacrificing SE and SI for RPF, which is not worth at all.

But more importantly than all of this is the fact that RPF is a horrible skill. It not only costs 4 points but give the enemy more information than it gives you

RPF only gives you the direction of the enemy which counter RPF allows the enemy to know your direction AND distance.

I wouldnt take RPF even if it costs 0 points, I cant count the amount of DDs I hunted down for free because their RPF allowed me to pin point their location.

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3 hours ago, DolphinPrincess said:

RPF only gives you the direction of the enemy which counter RPF allows the enemy to know your direction AND distance.

Would you please elaborate on how they know the direction and distance to you if you’re using RPF?  

Are you meaning if 2 or more of the red team have their own RPF they can triangulate you?

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3 hours ago, DolphinPrincess said:

RPF only gives you the direction of the enemy which counter RPF allows the enemy to know your direction AND distance.

2 minutes ago, GMG2_Jester said:

Would you please elaborate on how they know the direction and distance to you if you’re using RPF?  

Are you meaning if 2 or more of the red team have their own RPF they can triangulate you?

I'm intrigued as well.  However, it can't have anything to do with other red ships, based on how RPF works.

It's probably based on map awareness of where your teammates are.  Assume the enemy DD has RPF, and you don't.  If you are "located", you are the closest enemy to the red RPF ship.  You triangulate off your two closest teammates, as neither of them can be closer.  It probably works best if you aren't the farthest out on a flank.

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56 minutes ago, GMG2_Jester said:

Would you please elaborate on how they know the direction and distance to you if you’re using RPF?  

Are you meaning if 2 or more of the red team have their own RPF they can triangulate you?

 

47 minutes ago, ZoomieG said:

I'm intrigued as well.  However, it can't have anything to do with other red ships, based on how RPF works.

It's probably based on map awareness of where your teammates are.  Assume the enemy DD has RPF, and you don't.  If you are "located", you are the closest enemy to the red RPF ship.  You triangulate off your two closest teammates, as neither of them can be closer.  It probably works best if you aren't the farthest out on a flank.

Basically, the moment you gain the "located" or you lose the "located" icon is where the information comes in

So lets look at the first case, if you werent located before, and all of a sudden you are located this means that at its exact moment you and your nearest ally are the same distance away from the enemy ship with RPF

To locate the ship, you draw a line toward your nearest ally, then at the half way point draw another imaginary line perfectly perpendicular to the line between you and your ally.

The enemy ship with RPF must be exactly on that line, and if you just gained the location icon, it means that the enemy ship is moving from your allies quadrant into your quadrant. 

image.png.92213672c4e31d5db341b1489d81068d.png

So, when you gain or lose located indicator, the enemy is right on the black line.

If you gained it, he is moving to the right, if you lost it, he is moving to the left

And now by moving yourself, you can "sweep" the black line, in this example if you move south the line would sweep to the left, and by doing so you pin point his location.

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RPF is more useful as a skill for cruisers that don't "need" IFHE.
Especially Radar cruisers, and having a RPF skill on DDs gives the radar ships even more "bread crumbs" of information to follow.

The Z-46 and Z-52 have to be played somewhat differently due to their concealment / hydro range ( 5.9 / 5 km vs. 6.1 / 6 km ), but the whole point is moot with all the 12 km radar. 
So the next best thing safest option is to play it like a "discount Kitakaze" (stay at range and Dakka-Dakka ), because the torpedo range is 10.5 km or less. 

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Thank you @DolphinPrincess, @Ace_04, @vikingno2 and others; max-guns build works great so far! It seems that Z can manage pretty well without LS; the only problem is that some games end rather soon so my avg damage is not impressive. Bullying other DDs is real thing and 6.6km concealment is quite manageable.

I think I tried this build on Fantasque at some point and was very disappointed; this DD loses rudder/engine all the time and without smoke she's quite vulnerable.

I tried this build on Friesland but it's not very effective because of gun arcs; on Blyskawica though it seems to be working well:

QZhKSo2.png

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9 minutes ago, dimzzy said:

Thank you @DolphinPrincess, @Ace_04, @vikingno2 and others; max-guns build works great so far! It seems that Z can manage pretty well without LS; the only problem is that some games end rather soon so my avg damage is not impressive. Bullying other DDs is real thing and 6.6km concealment is quite manageable.

I think I tried this build on Fantasque at some point and was very disappointed; this DD loses rudder/engine all the time and without smoke she's quite vulnerable.

I tried this build on Friesland but it's not very effective because of gun arcs; on Blyskawica though it seems to be working well:

A few points here:

  • Last stand is almost a must on all destroyers, including the French ones.  Not sure why this is even being second-guessed.
  • Regarding damage, unless you're less concerned with playing objectives and more with farming, sure.  But any good DD player worth his salt knows that good DD play isn't necessarily about high damage numbers.
  • AFT on Friesland is mostly beneficial for the AA benefits, rather than the main guns, since, as you mentioned, the lofty gun arcs.

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On 7/20/2020 at 4:58 PM, DolphinPrincess said:

RPF only gives you the direction of the enemy which counter RPF allows the enemy to know your direction AND distance.

I always thought this was an amusing part of RPF.  It's very convenient, but a decent player could use it against you by simple use of the minimap.

 

The "game within the game."

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2 hours ago, Ace_04 said:
  • Last stand is almost a must on all destroyers, including the French ones.  Not sure why this is even being second-guessed.
  • Regarding damage, unless you're less concerned with playing objectives and more with farming, sure.  But any good DD player worth his salt knows that good DD play isn't necessarily about high damage numbers.

That's the thing: I don't have LS and CE on my Z-46, played two games with stock torps and range and yet...

NHHpqAc.png

Maybe it's thinking outside the box. Maybe it's luck. We'll see.

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2 hours ago, Ace_04 said:

AFT on Friesland is mostly beneficial for the AA benefits, rather than the main guns, since, as you mentioned, the lofty gun arcs.

I think to swap AFT for CE; most CVs are reluctant to attack Friesland anyway. I still would like to squeeze everything possible out of the guns though.

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17 hours ago, dimzzy said:

That's the thing: I don't have LS and CE on my Z-46, played two games with stock torps and range and yet...

NHHpqAc.png

Maybe it's thinking outside the box. Maybe it's luck. We'll see.

I look at Last Stand kind of like life insurance.  You may not always need it, but you'll sure miss it when you do.

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