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Dr_Venture

German CV's - underpowered

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I've been playing German CV's rather extensively since the crates hit. To get a better idea of how they compared to other CV's *like IJN or USN* I played those lines. I've come to the conclusion that this line is incredibly underpowered for many reasons:

AP Bombs are WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY TOO TROLL.  

Yup, I did a video on loving the AP bombers and got a lot of flak for it. However, I have come to see that over a large enough amount of games I realize how utterly useless they are overall. The bombs themselves tend to go in a random location with alarming regularity, overpen, or just bounce. Over and over and over again I've seen ships get away from perfect strikes because RNG straight up trolls me. Hell, it's frustrating to throw down on a battleship, hit mid-center, and watch nothing happen. Hit the known citadel location...nothing happens. 

Torp bombers are the only way to reliably stack damage 

Except they are weak as hell. Three torps that do...what...maaaaaybe 2k damage a torpedo? Considering the time/effort needed to set up a strike + the ridiculously low HP of the planes...this needs a serious buff. With crap AP bombs, these are the only reliable weapon in the German CV arsenal. 

AP rockets....are...pointless.

Can't really hurt DD's. Can't start fires....and I hit a cruiser for 3 citadels and cause like....5k damage. I will absolutely go into a training room and show you all how bad this is. 

-------

The AP focus is very nice, I'm fine with not doing DoT. However, if we are going to play it that way, the German CV's need serious buffs to the damage they can do. It's incredibly high risk/low reward. 

The issue is, the reword is terrible. If you can't DoT, you need higher alpha. 

I also propose a challenge to the - CV OPZ PLZ NURF 

Play 100 games in CV's, 25 in each nation...then come back to me, trust me, you'll know. Also keep something in mind, the CC's ONLY post the 1 in 50 games they do ridiculously well in. 

 

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10 minutes ago, Dr_Venture said:

I've been playing German CV's rather extensively since the crates hit. To get a better idea of how they compared to other CV's *like IJN or USN* I played those lines. I've come to the conclusion that this line is incredibly underpowered for many reasons:

AP Bombs are WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY TOO TROLL.  

Yup, I did a video on loving the AP bombers and got a lot of flak for it. However, I have come to see that over a large enough amount of games I realize how utterly useless they are overall. The bombs themselves tend to go in a random location with alarming regularity, overpen, or just bounce. Over and over and over again I've seen ships get away from perfect strikes because RNG straight up trolls me. Hell, it's frustrating to throw down on a battleship, hit mid-center, and watch nothing happen. Hit the known citadel location...nothing happens. 

Torp bombers are the only way to reliably stack damage 

Except they are weak as hell. Three torps that do...what...maaaaaybe 2k damage a torpedo? Considering the time/effort needed to set up a strike + the ridiculously low HP of the planes...this needs a serious buff. With crap AP bombs, these are the only reliable weapon in the German CV arsenal. 

AP rockets....are...pointless.

Can't really hurt DD's. Can't start fires....and I hit a cruiser for 3 citadels and cause like....5k damage. I will absolutely go into a training room and show you all how bad this is. 

-------

The AP focus is very nice, I'm fine with not doing DoT. However, if we are going to play it that way, the German CV's need serious buffs to the damage they can do. It's incredibly high risk/low reward. 

The issue is, the reword is terrible. If you can't DoT, you need higher alpha. 

I also propose a challenge to the - CV OPZ PLZ NURF 

Play 100 games in CV's, 25 in each nation...then come back to me, trust me, you'll know. Also keep something in mind, the CC's ONLY post the 1 in 50 games they do ridiculously well in. 

 

The recent AP bomb nerf hurt the performance of a several CV's.
I'm not happy about it.   :::: sigh :::
Also, as someone else pointed out in another forum post (*somewhere*... can't remember, sorry), if a bomb over-penetrates through the upper-deck and down through the bottom of the hull, shouldn't *that* cause flooding?

The nerfs to flooding chances hurt the torpedo damage, too.

As for the rockets, just because they penetrate a hull, doesn't mean they have a big enough warhead to do a lot of damage.  Citadel damage seems to have been secretly nerfed in general?

Thanks for sharing your findings.

 

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Yeah, it's definitely looking like the AP rockets are underpowered as hell. They do about the same damage as HE ones but only to perfect broadside cruisers and they can't start fires. BBs and maneuvering/angled cruisers take scratch damage and DDs are basically immune. The other armaments are probably fine overall though. The AP bombs are accurate and hard hitting and the torps are consistent even against maneuvering targets.

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8 minutes ago, Tekina_ said:

Yeah, it's definitely looking like the AP rockets are underpowered as hell. They do about the same damage as HE ones but only to perfect broadside cruisers and they can't start fires. BBs and maneuvering/angled cruisers take scratch damage and DDs are basically immune. The other armaments are probably fine overall though. The AP bombs are accurate and hard hitting and the torps are consistent even against maneuvering targets.

I've had many games with perfect drops and just gotten trolled over and over and over, whilst getting waves of planes shredded.

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I want people to keep something in mind here:

You can avoid CV strikes from the Germans easily. Don't sail in straight lines, have situational awareness and you're basically safe. 

The rockets are iffy, the AP bombs are troll, and the torps are meh.

Now I've been playing USN CVS and my damage is far higher. USN is still top dog. 

My basis here is pretty simple, you can negate German CV players by basically doing very simple things...add in some AA and you are practically immune to them. I'm not joking, or being a troll, it's legit.

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So the person adding laugh reacts, please tell me why this is funny to you? 

I'm serious, are you doing something different? What insight can you provide? I'm honestly asking if you can contribute. 

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I haven’t added the reactji, but my experience has been different (with the Rhein at least). I’m currently averaging 66k over 9 games - and that includes the learning curve of the rockets and bombers that behave like no others in the game.

The torps are fast, had decent pop (4500 per pair) and are super easy to use.

The bombers are slow as hell, but are nimble enough to get the reticle on target. And the target tightens quickly enough that any tier 3-4 bb should be 2 hits, and likely 1-2 citadels. And they do 4K a pop!

The rocket planes are more fiddly, but again, punchy. I had a 10k salvo the other day. Line up an attack remotely near broadside on cruisers at this tier and you’ll get 2-5k. Cruisers down here largely aren’t nimble enough to dodge, and even if they do, they’re exposing themselves to your teammates.
 

Given the meh AA down here, you’re doing around 10k every flight.

 

It’s early yet, but the stats also show the Rhein at the top of tier 4 by 5k over the Hosho and more than 10k (40%) over the Hermes and Langley.

Edited by Telastyn

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1 hour ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

The recent AP bomb nerf hurt the performance of a several CV's.
I'm not happy about it.   :::: sigh :::
Also, as someone else pointed out in another forum post (*somewhere*... can't remember, sorry), if a bomb over-penetrates through the upper-deck and down through the bottom of the hull, shouldn't *that* cause flooding?

The nerfs to flooding chances hurt the torpedo damage, too.

As for the rockets, just because they penetrate a hull, doesn't mean they have a big enough warhead to do a lot of damage.  Citadel damage seems to have been secretly nerfed in general?

Thanks for sharing your findings.

 

It should cause flooding. I agree.

 

I liked the rockets on GZ. It looks like they do more damage to DD.

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Just now, Felipe_1982 said:

It should cause flooding. I agree.

 

I liked the rockets on GZ. It looks like they do more damage to DD.

I'd like an option tbh, time and time again when the DD fight is lost...we lose. 

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like legit i dunno what one your playing but i can tell you right now and ill even put some clips together for if you like of me removing cruisers and BB's with rockets or bombs to me the bombs are even easier to land then IJN Cv's and sure the torps dont hit hard but they are fast and consistent meaning you can hit DD's and Cruisers with them..

i been playing the t8 from the day it came out and i can Honestly say its a fantastic CV that Punishes stupid plays and or players but you cant just turn your brain off and HE rocket strike people to win so other ships have a chance and yeah you cant nuke DD but you can still harass them for damage and spotting them for you team OR you could just torp the little buggers because the torps are so fast if you drop right they cant dodge them its almost like this CV line requires a bit of brain power to use 

But hey thats just me i find Midway and Haku about as fun to play as smashing my face into the Keyboard also i see people complaining about the AP Bomb nerf Guess what you guys should do some reading cos the german CV's didnt get hit by the Nerf the t8 Does more AP bomb damage then Haku 

This Post is Pepega like seriously the German CV's are strong but require you to use your brain not just fly at target and strike with HE for free damage

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5 minutes ago, Dr_Venture said:

I'd like an option tbh, time and time again when the DD fight is lost...we lose. 

Not everytime, and i think CVs ar enot the ones most killing DDs. i dont kill 3 DDs a match.

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8 minutes ago, Dr_Venture said:

I'd like an option tbh, time and time again when the DD fight is lost...we lose. 

Well yeah. DDs are still the most important ships even in CV matches.

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46 minutes ago, Dr_Venture said:

I've had many games with perfect drops and just gotten trolled over and over and over, whilst getting waves of planes shredded.

I'm not laughing (and I didn't give the laughing emoji reaction).  That said.... we'll move along.... to ...

I'm guessing the higher-tier AA can shred planes quickly, especially if Captain's Skills "Aircraft Armor" and "Survivability Expert" are not present.

Tier-4 Rhein can do okay without those skills, at least for one aerial attack run.  With those skills, the planes can linger in AA bubbles longer.  But that is Tier-4.  

Tier-8 Graf Zeppelin's planes face stronk AA bubbles that are larger in diameter.  So, getting one aerial attack per squadron launch is normal, and sometimes even that doesn't happen if enough ship's AA bubbles overlap to swat planes.

I don't have the Weser, yet.  But Tier-6 is where AA begins to get strong enough to punish mistakes.

So, zig-zagging or flying curved approaches to targets helps to reduced AA accuracy and keep planes alive while on approach to targets.  
Are you satisfied with your performances in that competency?
If not, then I suggest we both continue practicing.  :-)

Aerial attacks benefit from experience, I feel. 
A player gains experience and learns to 'read' the movements of other player's ships and adjust the aerial attack aiming to compensate or anticipate where a target will be (so that the ordnance can hit the target).
It has taken me a while to get where I am.  And I still feel the need for improvement.

Don't despair.  Keep up the good effort.  You'll be able to report improvement and successes in the future, I figure.  :-)

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i've found the aiming reticle for the Attack planes to be hard to find against the backdrop of the water. For whatever reason, it looks really faint when it changes from white to orange and even moreso when it goes green. Is there something in the game controls or maybe a mod that allows for a bolder appearance or color change?

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So to borrow LWM rating system

 

Challenging Skill Floor

High Skill Ceiling

 

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are you sure your playing the right German CV's? or did you get different ones? because they are borderline op if someone dosnt angle in a cruiser you can pretty much remove them if they dont angle enough your gonna do serious damage to them with the rockets but yeah the rocket planes are about surprise attacks or catching people who cant angle to the rocket planes.

The AP bombers are the highest AP alpha doing more then IJN and they have a heal letting you fly through more stuff then other CV's can or get away with more risky attacks

and the torp bombers well they are your bread and butter you use them to hit cruisers and Destroyers because well they are fast and have a tight spread and aim really fast as well its very easy to land them on a destroyer 

The AP dive bombers on the T8 one are amazing doing a easy 23.4k damage in a single strike and they are very easy to land once you spend some time getting used to them but all Bombers are trolly even Midway HEDB can miss you just gotta accept it 

They do not need a buff if anything its more likely they will get a nerf in the hands of even a OK cv player like me i can remove ships pretty consistently and even remove cruisers very fast very early in the game if they misplay with the rockets

so i dunno man maybe you need to spend some more time learning them and Also dont strike French or germans with the rockets and expect citadels they dont really have the pen to get through the turtle backs or spaced armor... maybe the t10 will but we will have to wait and see

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40 minutes ago, Telastyn said:

It’s early yet, but the stats also show the Rhein at the top of tier 4 by 5k over the Hosho and more than 10k (40%) over the Hermes and Langley.

OK. I will likely get the Rhein when it is officially available then. I plan on using a high point Cpt on it so I can terrorize T4. After all, War Failing allows this.

7 minutes ago, Anonymous50 said:

So to borrow LWM rating system

 

Challenging Skill Floor

High Skill Ceiling

 

I'll be practicing. Any EXPLOIT War Failing allows is fine by me tho it might not be fine for the players.

However, War Failing doesn't care anymore about their game. That much is clear. All WF cares about is suckering money from the fools/idiots and they know there's plenty of those.

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Called it months ago when these were first announced, why do I have to be right all the time?!  

If you notice with the AP bombs, they have damage values about equal to what the damage values on IJN/Enterprise WERE prior to being nerfed, so that they could take the new "top spot" for AP damage, since those bombs are really the only good damage on the CV...problem with AP bombs is they love to land as far away from the drop circle as possible.

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2 hours ago, Dr_Venture said:

I've been playing German CV's rather extensively since the crates hit. To get a better idea of how they compared to other CV's *like IJN or USN* I played those lines. I've come to the conclusion that this line is incredibly underpowered for many reasons:

AP Bombs are WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY TOO TROLL.  

Yup, I did a video on loving the AP bombers and got a lot of flak for it. However, I have come to see that over a large enough amount of games I realize how utterly useless they are overall. The bombs themselves tend to go in a random location with alarming regularity, overpen, or just bounce. Over and over and over again I've seen ships get away from perfect strikes because RNG straight up trolls me. Hell, it's frustrating to throw down on a battleship, hit mid-center, and watch nothing happen. Hit the known citadel location...nothing happens. 

Torp bombers are the only way to reliably stack damage 

Except they are weak as hell. Three torps that do...what...maaaaaybe 2k damage a torpedo? Considering the time/effort needed to set up a strike + the ridiculously low HP of the planes...this needs a serious buff. With crap AP bombs, these are the only reliable weapon in the German CV arsenal. 

AP rockets....are...pointless.

Can't really hurt DD's. Can't start fires....and I hit a cruiser for 3 citadels and cause like....5k damage. I will absolutely go into a training room and show you all how bad this is. 

-------

The AP focus is very nice, I'm fine with not doing DoT. However, if we are going to play it that way, the German CV's need serious buffs to the damage they can do. It's incredibly high risk/low reward. 

The issue is, the reword is terrible. If you can't DoT, you need higher alpha. 

I also propose a challenge to the - CV OPZ PLZ NURF 

Play 100 games in CV's, 25 in each nation...then come back to me, trust me, you'll know. Also keep something in mind, the CC's ONLY post the 1 in 50 games they do ridiculously well in. 

 

I pretty much agree. I don't think the German AP bombs are particularly more unreliable than other AP bombs though. They are certainly better than GZ's bombs. Enterprise gets off well with AP bombs because she drops a lot of smaller ones so typically one or two will hit on a BB at minimum. 

The rockets aren't pointless but they aren't powerful either. Nicest thing is the planes are fast. I found they are the only tools on the German CVs which can reliably damage all ships types. They don't do a lot of damage but they actually hit. For DDs you will mostly get overpens but hopefully can get a full pen or 2. For BBs you aim into the upper hull or superstructure for pens. You can't citadel them at all. Large cruisers also can't be citadeled. I got as many as 8 citadels on a cruiser, but that was the only time that happened. Dispersion and slight angling will usually limit you to 2-4 at best. All-in-all though they are ok. 

I absolutely agree on the torps. They are weak as hell and the flood chance is terrible. They are supposed to be anti-DD weapons but it takes as many as 4 to even sink a DD and it is difficult to hit at DD that is moving. They work best on DDs sitting stationary in smoke (but so do any torpedoes). 

Overall I found the German CVs to be an interesting challenge. I would never take one where it mattered over an IJN or USN carrier though. The one nice thing is the planes are quite fast. You can usually boost through AA and only face one set of flak. The bad news is they are so fast, and the Bf110s in particular are so big, that they tend to hit the flak. I end up using the DB heal (which is a nice touch other CVs don't have) to heal through the damage. 

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3 hours ago, Dr_Venture said:

Torp bombers are the only way to reliably stack damage.

I’ve understood this since the days of RTS.

2 hours ago, Tekina_ said:

The AP bombs are accurate and hard hitting and the torps are consistent even against maneuvering targets.

Sure; if you can actually use the pathetic excuse of a bombing UI?

I was never really able to use Manual Bombing in RTS in any meaningful manner. Now with the ‘simpler’ rework, I’m somehow magically supposed to be able to use Manual Bombing!?!

(redacted) the bloody CV rework.

2 hours ago, Dr_Venture said:

My basis here is pretty simple, you can negate German CV players by basically doing very simple things...add in some AA and you are practically immune to them. I'm not joking, or being a troll, it's legit.

Thing is, many players don’t even try, or outright refuse to do the things than can, at the least, lessen the effects of an attack by ANY carrier.

2 hours ago, Telastyn said:

I’m currently averaging 66k over 9 games - and that includes the learning curve of the rockets and bombers that behave like no others in the game.

Must be nice.

1 hour ago, IronFistOfChaos said:

But hey thats just me i find Midway and Haku about as fun to play as smashing my face into the Keyboard...

Seriously?

Hak I hate because of the stupidly large torpedo squad only dropping two torps at a time. I’d rather just fly a six plane squad. Pretty much anything beyond that is useless anyway, outside attacking T8 targets.

Midway I like because it actually has a torpedo someone who isn’t mister dark purple CV driver can hit things with.

1 hour ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

So, zig-zagging or flying curved approaches to targets helps to reduced AA accuracy and keep planes alive while on approach to targets.

Except I can’t line up targets while doing so?

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1 hour ago, USS_Iowa_ said:

are you sure your playing the right German CV's? or did you get different ones? because they are borderline op if someone dosnt angle in a cruiser you can pretty much remove them if they dont angle enough your gonna do serious damage to them with the rockets but yeah the rocket planes are about surprise attacks or catching people who cant angle to the rocket planes.

The AP bombers are the highest AP alpha doing more then IJN and they have a heal letting you fly through more stuff then other CV's can or get away with more risky attacks

and the torp bombers well they are your bread and butter you use them to hit cruisers and Destroyers because well they are fast and have a tight spread and aim really fast as well its very easy to land them on a destroyer 

The AP dive bombers on the T8 one are amazing doing a easy 23.4k damage in a single strike and they are very easy to land once you spend some time getting used to them but all Bombers are trolly even Midway HEDB can miss you just gotta accept it 

They do not need a buff if anything its more likely they will get a nerf in the hands of even a OK cv player like me i can remove ships pretty consistently and even remove cruisers very fast very early in the game if they misplay with the rockets

so i dunno man maybe you need to spend some more time learning them and Also dont strike French or germans with the rockets and expect citadels they dont really have the pen to get through the turtle backs or spaced armor... maybe the t10 will but we will have to wait and see

Can you record a video of your gameplay? I'm curious how you're doing it because I frankly don't understand how you are calling these ships OP.

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1 hour ago, Zenn3k said:

Called it months ago when these were first announced, why do I have to be right all the time?!  

If you notice with the AP bombs, they have damage values about equal to what the damage values on IJN/Enterprise WERE prior to being nerfed, so that they could take the new "top spot" for AP damage, since those bombs are really the only good damage on the CV...problem with AP bombs is they love to land as far away from the drop circle as possible.

BINGO. 

Perfect strikes, set up, and bomb basically flies to the far side or overpens. 

Thing is, you risk big with the DBs. They get torn up fast and you can't boom and zoom with them. Slight turn from your target and you're boned.

This is why HE bombers are far superior. I'd rather DoT than gamble with AP bombers. Sure you can get big money but it's like the lotto.

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3 hours ago, Dr_Venture said:

I've been playing German CV's rather extensively since the crates hit. To get a better idea of how they compared to other CV's *like IJN or USN* I played those lines. I've come to the conclusion that this line is incredibly underpowered for many reasons:

AP Bombs are WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY TOO TROLL.  

Yup, I did a video on loving the AP bombers and got a lot of flak for it. However, I have come to see that over a large enough amount of games I realize how utterly useless they are overall. The bombs themselves tend to go in a random location with alarming regularity, overpen, or just bounce. Over and over and over again I've seen ships get away from perfect strikes because RNG straight up trolls me. Hell, it's frustrating to throw down on a battleship, hit mid-center, and watch nothing happen. Hit the known citadel location...nothing happens. 

Torp bombers are the only way to reliably stack damage 

Except they are weak as hell. Three torps that do...what...maaaaaybe 2k damage a torpedo? Considering the time/effort needed to set up a strike + the ridiculously low HP of the planes...this needs a serious buff. With crap AP bombs, these are the only reliable weapon in the German CV arsenal. 

AP rockets....are...pointless.

Can't really hurt DD's. Can't start fires....and I hit a cruiser for 3 citadels and cause like....5k damage. I will absolutely go into a training room and show you all how bad this is. 

-------

The AP focus is very nice, I'm fine with not doing DoT. However, if we are going to play it that way, the German CV's need serious buffs to the damage they can do. It's incredibly high risk/low reward. 

The issue is, the reword is terrible. If you can't DoT, you need higher alpha. 

I also propose a challenge to the - CV OPZ PLZ NURF 

Play 100 games in CV's, 25 in each nation...then come back to me, trust me, you'll know. Also keep something in mind, the CC's ONLY post the 1 in 50 games they do ridiculously well in. 

 

After reading this I am happy I didn't get those CV missions :Smile_hiding: I already had felt the german CV would suck somewhat but not this bad :Smile_teethhappy: Also I know wargaming will buff them somewhat to sell them on release cause profit :Smile_coin: But I know that down the road eventually they will end like everything else german in wargaming games :Smile_popcorn:I should know I have Tiger 1 Tiger 2 E75 and E 100 in wot :Smile_sceptic: It might be good right now but later on though :Smile_facepalm:

 

Edited by LastRemnant

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3 hours ago, Dr_Venture said:

I've been playing German CV's rather extensively since the crates hit. To get a better idea of how they compared to other CV's *like IJN or USN* I played those lines. I've come to the conclusion that this line is incredibly underpowered for many reasons:

AP Bombs are WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY TOO TROLL.  

Yup, I did a video on loving the AP bombers and got a lot of flak for it. However, I have come to see that over a large enough amount of games I realize how utterly useless they are overall. The bombs themselves tend to go in a random location with alarming regularity, overpen, or just bounce. Over and over and over again I've seen ships get away from perfect strikes because RNG straight up trolls me. Hell, it's frustrating to throw down on a battleship, hit mid-center, and watch nothing happen. Hit the known citadel location...nothing happens. 

Torp bombers are the only way to reliably stack damage 

Except they are weak as hell. Three torps that do...what...maaaaaybe 2k damage a torpedo? Considering the time/effort needed to set up a strike + the ridiculously low HP of the planes...this needs a serious buff. With crap AP bombs, these are the only reliable weapon in the German CV arsenal. 

AP rockets....are...pointless.

Can't really hurt DD's. Can't start fires....and I hit a cruiser for 3 citadels and cause like....5k damage. I will absolutely go into a training room and show you all how bad this is. 

-------

The AP focus is very nice, I'm fine with not doing DoT. However, if we are going to play it that way, the German CV's need serious buffs to the damage they can do. It's incredibly high risk/low reward. 

The issue is, the reword is terrible. If you can't DoT, you need higher alpha. 

I also propose a challenge to the - CV OPZ PLZ NURF 

Play 100 games in CV's, 25 in each nation...then come back to me, trust me, you'll know. Also keep something in mind, the CC's ONLY post the 1 in 50 games they do ridiculously well in. 

 

I can live with most of these things but what really grinds my gears is how the AP bombs have a 75% chance of hitting the absolute edge of the bombing redicle every time. Almost if they are programmed with bias to avoid center at all costs. Its the GZ AP RNG all over with an oval.

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