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KosmicRavioli

How Is This Still OK?

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In a Moskva.
Started a battle, barely 2 mins in when a Midway finds me and decides to make a rocket pass at me.

My AA goes from 100% to 60% in a single strike.

No, not a single wave, a single strike.

I'm not even bothered about the 12k he took off me at this point.

A few minutes later he comes back again, one strike, my AA goes from 60% to 40% and all my short-range mounts are gone... like zero.
He spends the rest of the game dropping torps, bombs and rockets on me until he kills me.

This isn't an outlier or some freak event, this happens regularly with every CV that fires HE rockets and bombs.
So, how is this OK? AA is literally my only "counter" against a CV and he can so casually take it out making me even more helpless against his attacks.

I mean wth?! What other class is there that can casually take out a ship's guns so as to render him absolutely defenceless against a player?

Seriously, how is this, after nearly 18 months, still OK?

Either give me a proper counter against CVs, or -at the very goddamn least- make sure that my AA can f******* survive CVs' attacks.

F****** Christ.

Edited by KosmicRavioli
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Akizuki/Kidd/Kidd division appears to be the proper CV counter.  CV can and should be dead in about 5 minutes based on current presentations.  Watching a Twitch stream they're winning about 95% of their games in this division and think they killed all but one of the CV's in game over about 30 games.  Seems a positive strategy in these trying times.

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cv need to be handheld at every aspect of game play.

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5 minutes ago, Carlos_Mendozariquez said:

Akizuki/Kidd/Kidd division appears to be the proper CV counter.  CV can and should be dead in about 5 minutes based on current presentations.  Watching a Twitch stream they're winning about 95% of their games in this division and think they killed all but one of the CV's in game over about 30 games.  Seems a positive strategy in these trying times.

The other classic CV counterpick as shown by Yuro is the 899 pick. Tier 8 CV with two Musashis (replace with any other long range BB of your choice that can hit like 26km+ with spotter plane at tier 9). It only works if the CV players is daft and doesn't move and sadly doesn't work on the tier 10 CVs or Brit CVs due to having armoured flight decks.

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48 minutes ago, KosmicRavioli said:

In a Moskva.
Started a battle, barely 2 mins in when a Midway finds me and decides to make a rocket pass at me.

My AA goes from 100% to 60% in a single strike.

No, not a single wave, a single strike.

I'm not even bothered about the 12k he took off me at this point.

A few minutes later he comes back again, one strike, my AA goes from 60% to 40% and all my short-range mounts are gone... like zero.
He spends the rest of the game dropping torps, bombs and rockets on me until he kills me.

This isn't an outlier or some freak event, this happens regularly with every CV that fires HE rockets and bombs.
So, how is this OK? AA is literally my only "counter" against a CV and he can so casually take it out making me even more helpless against his attacks.

I mean wth?! What other class is there that can casually take out a ship's guns so as to render him absolutely defenceless against a player?

Seriously, how is this, after nearly 18 months, still OK?

Either give me a proper counter against CVs, or -at the very goddamn least- make sure that my AA can f******* survive CVs' attacks.

F****** Christ.

Just wondering...have tried running AAM1 in slot 1?

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15 minutes ago, Yandere_Roon said:

The other classic CV counterpick as shown by Yuro is the 899 pick. Tier 8 CV with two Musashis (replace with any other long range BB of your choice that can hit like 26km+ with spotter plane at tier 9). It only works if the CV players is daft and doesn't move and sadly doesn't work on the tier 10 CVs or Brit CVs due to having armoured flight decks.

It's kind of odd that it takes a 3 ship division to attempt to counter a CV.  

Almost like it's overpowered or something.

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CVs completely and utter destroy any enjoyment in this game

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1 hour ago, Yandere_Roon said:

The other classic CV counterpick as shown by Yuro is the 899 pick. Tier 8 CV with two Musashis (replace with any other long range BB of your choice that can hit like 26km+ with spotter plane at tier 9). It only works if the CV players is daft and doesn't move and sadly doesn't work on the tier 10 CVs or Brit CVs due to having armoured flight decks.

Have you tried it with Shikishima? You know that fun old saying, when at first you don’t succeed get a bigger gun and try again... :Smile_izmena:

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I mean... it's technically getting nerfed soon, assuming you dodge and go bow/stern on.

If you don't dodge, you'll lose even more AA than before, however, and take even more damage.

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1 minute ago, Shoggoth_pinup said:

I mean... it's technically getting nerfed soon, assuming you dodge and go bow/stern on.

If you don't dodge, you'll lose even more AA than before, however, and take even more damage.

I'd like to know how one dodges rockets in a Moskva.

More to the point; this "just dodge" stance is extremely tired and is long proven to be horsecrap as far as reliably mitigating damage is concerned. I don't know why people still think it's a viable tactic to suggest other than for the pure comedy value. Especially to a player who is reasonably good.

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CVs are just PvE and you are just the extra standing in for the AI. Deal with it, WG can balance it to satisfy the spreadsheet but the frustration is in the design.

Unless AA is somehow redesigned to be skill-based (like, you know, shooting?) this wont change.

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10 minutes ago, KosmicRavioli said:

I'd like to know how one dodges rockets in a Moskva.

More to the point; this "just dodge" stance is extremely tired and is long proven to be horsecrap as far as reliably mitigating damage is concerned. I don't know why people still think it's a viable tactic to suggest other than for the pure comedy value. Especially to a player who is reasonably good.

Because it works. It doesn't eliminate damage, but it reduces it tremendously, and I can tell you that from using rockets thousands of times. Sure, many of the rockets currently don't work in a way that can be effectively dodged, but they will all be as easy to "dodge" as HVAR soon.

You are still getting hit, you are just getting hit by far less due to a smaller portion of your ship being in the target reticle. Less area means less AA hit. While it doing less damage technically requires your deck to be penetratable, it also curbs its ability to start more than one fire. Sure, multi fires still can happen, but they will happen less.

At minimum, you have an 8km warning when you see rockets outside of rare circumstances such as islands blocking LoS. Even a BB has time to turn.

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As long as the profit paradigm reigns supreme this game will never be what it has the potential to be. 

Wargaming has not figured it out yet. 

Make a great game,  a masterpiece and you have a loyal fan base for life.  

Currently they endorse more of a parasitic game design philosophy that ignores the game design genius they have in house. 

I still enjoy the game but additions and changes have overtaken the reason I have great joy in playing WoWs.  Rather ironic that World of Warships most out of balance mechanic and unit are based on warplanes not warships.  The only CV matches I truly enjoy are when I div with a CV.  Or the ultra rare random team synergy match that I yearn for.  

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3 minutes ago, Willawaw said:

As long as the profit paradigm reigns supreme this game will never be what it has the potential to be. 

Wargaming has not figured it out yet. 

Make a great game,  a masterpiece and you have a loyal fan base for life.  

Currently they endorse more of a parasitic game design philosophy that ignores the game design genius they have in house. 

I still enjoy the game but additions and changes have overtaken the reason I have great joy in playing WoWs.  Rather ironic that World of Warships most out of balance mechanic and unit are based on warplanes not warships.  The only CV matches I truly enjoy are when I div with a CV.  Or the ultra rare random team synergy match that I yearn for.  

it seems wargaming has zero interest in game quality or longevity and are just after a quick buck by pumping out copy paste premiums and terribly implemented ships like cv and this is starting to have an effect on the game as we currently have bots in random battles in low tiers because who wants to play against cv especially any new player.

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1 minute ago, ITZ_ACE_BABY said:

it seems wargaming has zero interest in game quality or longevity and are just after a quick buck by pumping out copy paste premiums and terribly implemented ships like cv and this is starting to have an effect on the game as we currently have bots in random battles in low tiers because who wants to play against cv especially any new player.

WoWS has needed bots in lower tiers even back when I first joined. The fact of the matter is that low tier ships are like playing a game of leapfrog, as one frequently only plays them for a single match and then moves on to the next. Combine this with new players being segregated for 200 matches or until they hit T5 and this results in those tiers being very empty due to newbies being the only ones that are forced to be down there.

T5 is also the tier where matches start to be easy to find.

I wonder if newbies having the same matchmaking as of that tier might possibly have something to do with that?

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1 minute ago, Shoggoth_pinup said:

WoWS has needed bots in lower tiers even back when I first joined. The fact of the matter is that low tier ships are like playing a game of leapfrog, as one frequently only plays them for a single match and then moves on to the next. Combine this with new players being segregated for 200 matches or until they hit T5 and this results in those tiers being very empty due to newbies being the only ones that are forced to be down there.

T5 is also the tier where matches start to be easy to find.

I wonder if newbies having the same matchmaking as of that tier might possibly have something to do with that?

The inclusion of bots in one of their "PvP" modes is a pretty big step.  If nothing else, I think it represents a pretty significant milestone in the game's life cycle.

Could just be something to fill the gaps at the lowest tiers.  That probably was coming at some point no matter what.  It'll be interesting to see if they show up anywhere else.

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31 minutes ago, Shoggoth_pinup said:

Because it works. It doesn't eliminate damage, but it reduces it tremendously, and I can tell you that from using rockets thousands of times. Sure, many of the rockets currently don't work in a way that can be effectively dodged, but they will all be as easy to "dodge" as HVAR soon.

You are still getting hit, you are just getting hit by far less due to a smaller portion of your ship being in the target reticle. Less area means less AA hit. While it doing less damage technically requires your deck to be penetratable, it also curbs its ability to start more than one fire. Sure, multi fires still can happen, but they will happen less.

At minimum, you have an 8km warning when you see rockets outside of rare circumstances such as islands blocking LoS. Even a BB has time to turn.

Why would you assume that when people talk about an effective counter, they automatically mean "take no damage"?

Again, you are talking to a reasonably good player here, and while I "dodged" and managed to do something like 140k damage with 2 kills (one of which was that damnable CV) while getting 27 plane kills with only long-range AA, the experience as a whole was absolutely horrendous and extremely frustrating. Because despite my "dodging" and killing and doing a ton of damage, the fact remains that the CV is simply untouchable as long as they don't make a stupid mistake and get spotted within your firing range.

In the end, despite the 27 plane kills, I still died a protracted, frustrating death to a ship that I couldn't harm in any way (until he got spotted). Yet, even sinking his ship wasn't enough, because CV players -for some reason- get to keep fighting even after they die (he killed me with multiple rocket strikes, after he died). If it was any other class of ship, I could fight back or disengage. It is the one-sidedness of this whole affair where the CV controls all the cards that make up for an extremely frustrating experience, and it never gets solved. Despite more than a year of countless people bringing up this issue over and over again.

Losing pretty much all your AA to the said CV in the process is just the cherry on top.

It's literally the least they could do to make sure that the AA survives CV attacks. And yet, here we are.

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19 minutes ago, ITZ_ACE_BABY said:

it seems wargaming has zero interest in game quality or longevity and are just after a quick buck by pumping out copy paste premiums and terribly implemented ships like cv and this is starting to have an effect on the game as we currently have bots in random battles in low tiers because who wants to play against cv especially any new player.

I'm under the impression thats its some big wheels knuckle-headed idea, and he's determined to try and figure out a way to make it work. 

If user-created modes we're available, we would have alot better games and variety.

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1 minute ago, KosmicRavioli said:

Why would you assume that when people talk about an effective counter, they automatically mean "take no damage"?

Again, you are talking to a reasonably good player here, and while I "dodged" and managed to do something like 140k damage with 2 kills (one of which was that damnable CV) while getting 27 plane kills with only long-range AA, the experience as a whole was absolutely horrendous and extremely frustrating. Because despite my "dodging" and killing and doing a ton of damage, the fact remains that the CV is simply untouchable as long as they don't make a stupid mistake and get spotted within your firing range.

In the end, despite the 27 plane kills, I still died a protracted, frustrating death to a ship that I couldn't harm in any way (until he got spotted). Yet, even sinking his ship wasn't enough, because CV players -for some reason- get to keep fighting even after they die (he killed me with multiple rocket strikes, after he died). If it was any other class of ship, I could fight back or disengage. It is the one-sidedness of this whole affair where the CV controls all the cards that make up for an extremely frustrating experience, and it never gets solved. Despite more than a year of countless people bringing up this issue over and over again.

 

I think what you might not be comprehending is just how much money that the CV target market spends on this game.   It's gotta be enough to make the entire rest of the game worth sacrificing.  

Or maybe the entire rest of the game was built to provide that "CV fleet admiral" experience.  That'd be classic WG!

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1 minute ago, CommodoreKang said:

I think what you might not be comprehending is just how much money that the CV target market spends on this game.   It's gotta be enough to make the entire rest of the game worth sacrificing.  

Or maybe the entire rest of the game was built to provide that "CV fleet admiral" experience.  That'd be classic WG!

With everything we've seen in the past year, you are probably right.

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44 minutes ago, CommodoreKang said:

The inclusion of bots in one of their "PvP" modes is a pretty big step.  If nothing else, I think it represents a pretty significant milestone in the game's life cycle.

Could just be something to fill the gaps at the lowest tiers.  That probably was coming at some point no matter what.  It'll be interesting to see if they show up anywhere else.

Honestly, even at 4 am it's easy to find matches. I don't see tiers 6-10 needing it any time soon.

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Planes need to cost points again as they did once before. I think it was +2 points if you shot down an aircraft. Doing this at least gives some consequence to losing aircraft.

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45 minutes ago, KosmicRavioli said:

Why would you assume that when people talk about an effective counter, they automatically mean "take no damage"?

Again, you are talking to a reasonably good player here, and while I "dodged" and managed to do something like 140k damage with 2 kills (one of which was that damnable CV) while getting 27 plane kills with only long-range AA, the experience as a whole was absolutely horrendous and extremely frustrating. Because despite my "dodging" and killing and doing a ton of damage, the fact remains that the CV is simply untouchable as long as they don't make a stupid mistake and get spotted within your firing range.

In the end, despite the 27 plane kills, I still died a protracted, frustrating death to a ship that I couldn't harm in any way (until he got spotted). Yet, even sinking his ship wasn't enough, because CV players -for some reason- get to keep fighting even after they die (he killed me with multiple rocket strikes, after he died). If it was any other class of ship, I could fight back or disengage. It is the one-sidedness of this whole affair where the CV controls all the cards that make up for an extremely frustrating experience, and it never gets solved. Despite more than a year of countless people bringing up this issue over and over again.

Losing pretty much all your AA to the said CV in the process is just the cherry on top.

It's literally the least they could do to make sure that the AA survives CV attacks. And yet, here we are.

You said you took 12k damage from a single rocket salvo, so yes, it isn't strange to assume you did not. Still, that isn't my point. Currently many rockets cannot be dodged but hit a wide area. Currently you cannot effectively dodge most kinds of rockets. But soon the ones like that will all be dodgable but hit a narrow area.

This will both be a nerf to CVs and a buff. A nerf against the skilled and a buff against the unskilled and preoccupied

Heck, my original post wasn't even talking about your situation, or even you necessarily. I was talking about the upcoming changes without a particular player in mind. All I was doing was informing you that losing 40% of your AA in a single pass should become a thing of the past if you go bow-in once this change goes live. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

If it came off as anything else, I apologize. All I was doing was passing it on. Many do not keep up to date on these things, and so I try to mention them when I feel it might get seen by the playerbase at large, as I do my best to educate the players that don't know how to counter a CV.

Anti-CV threads are the best place to educate those that struggle against CVs after all. Many have no idea how to play around us, and I dislike seeing that.

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1 minute ago, Shoggoth_pinup said:

Honestly, even at 4 am it's easy to find matches. I don't see tiers 6-10 needing it any time soon.

If nothing else it sets the precedent and trains everybody to get to used to it.  

I think they are in a bit of a transition period here, monetization wise.  And so I think a lot depends on where that ends up taking them.  

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