Jump to content
You need to play a total of 20 battles to post in this section.
_HoJo_

Note to average players re:Uptier vs Downtier games. [edited]...

79 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

24
[DRAC0]
Members
60 posts
4,292 battles

If you're a unicum player, this doesn't apply to you, and if you're a casual player, it doesn't apply to you so just hit the back button on your browser.  If you're an average, competitively minded player,  read on.

We all enjoy a challenge and that's why we play WoWs.  Playing against better quality ships and often more experienced players is a serious challenge but we're up for it - at least once in a while.  When you are uptiered, or even worse - when playing 2 tiers above your own - your impact on the game is often to stay alive long enough to contribute positively. 

Uptier games are okay, you say?  Because you get an equal number of 1 or 2 downtier games just as often?  Think again.

Over the last six months, I have conducted a thorough audit of games - thousands of games.  This is a large enough sample size to show what's really happening with "random" matchmaking.  The numbers don't lie.  Here are the results.
672488411_Jan-JuneMM.png.3f151db7cba209783bc2a0bd25dd22b3.png

By itself, this long-term trend is somewhat annoying.  Unfortunately, it is getting worse.  In the month of July with several hundred games recorded the ratio of uptier vs downtier is nearly 2 to 1.1024628672_JulyMM.png.aa066cc7823e2460b5671904d0e13d2c.png

So the question arises - who is getting all these juicy 1 and 2 tier down games?  Tier 10 players obviously are benefitting since they are always top tier. 

I play mostly tiers 7&8 these days, and I am not benefitting, and my money is just as green as anyone else's playing this game.  The many contributors to this data collection are not, that's for sure.  What is certain is that some players are benefitting.  I don't expect WG to publicly explain this because it may have to do with "super-premium players" getting preferred matchmaking, but it's food for thought.  And there is mounting evidence that this is the case.  Numbers don't lie.

Edited by _HoJo_
  • Cool 1
  • Thanks 2
  • Boring 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
285
[XXX]
Members
536 posts
968 battles

Tier 9 is. It's well known that the MM changes now favor putting tier 10s in mostly all tier 10 matches, meaning tier 9 tends to be top of the pile a LOT more than it use to. This is why tier 7 use to be a golden tier in that it was rarely uptiered since tier 8, 9 and 10 often all got put in a match together. Now, however, it tends to put all the tier 10s together, then make a match out of tier 7, 8 and 9s.

Yes this is anecdotal evidence but that's what it 'feels' like, so take this how you will, it doesn't compare to your hard number crunching

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24
[DRAC0]
Members
60 posts
4,292 battles
5 minutes ago, Yandere_Roon said:

Tier 9 is. It's well known that the MM changes now favor putting tier 10s in mostly all tier 10 matches, meaning tier 9 tends to be top of the pile a LOT more than it use to. This is why tier 7 use to be a golden tier in that it was rarely uptiered since tier 8, 9 and 10 often all got put in a match together. Now, however, it tends to put all the tier 10s together, then make a match out of tier 7, 8 and 9s.

Yes this is anecdotal evidence but that's what it 'feels' like, so take this how you will, it doesn't compare to your hard number crunching

I"m aware of the "golden tier" theory, etc.  I know mm changes from time to time for different reasons.  What is important in my view is this.  The impact on the average player's game experience is very significant.  It's unquestionable that we are being seriously handicapped by the current system.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
285
[XXX]
Members
536 posts
968 battles

I doubt unicum players get preferential MM, it's just they tend to play specific ships AND most of them play in divisions with voice chat, which pumps up their numbers. I imagine it's also the fact that most unicum players tend to play at tier 10, whilst the rest of us average joes tend to play tier 6, 7 and 8.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,718
[SALVO]
Members
4,495 posts
3,829 battles

All the sale's hook for the tiers system is obviously to reach the top of the ladder to always be top dog. In that sense it is working as intended, you'll get shafted by MM until you play tiers 9-10. Why do you expect it to be otherwise? 

Otoh, being undertiered makes for a different and more relaxed approach to the match, there is a tacit abdication of responsability. You are are not expected to make the play but to support the play, enjoy it for what it is. 

It is what it is, if you play 7-8, expect to be undertiered a lot. Want to be top tier? Play 9-10, but you gotta pay for that privilege.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,021
[LUCK]
Members
1,952 posts
24 minutes ago, _HoJo_ said:

If you're a unicum player, this doesn't apply to you, and if you're a casual player, it doesn't apply to you so just hit the back button on your browser.  If you're an average, competitively minded player,  read on.

We all enjoy a challenge and that's why we play WoWs.  Playing against better quality ships and often more experienced players is a serious challenge but we're up for it - at least once in a while.  When you are uptiered, or even worse - when playing 2 tiers above your own - your impact on the game is often to stay alive long enough to contribute positively. 

Uptier games are okay, you say?  Because you get an equal number of 1 or 2 downtier games just as often?  Think again.

Over the last six months, I have conducted a thorough audit of games - thousands of games.  This is a large enough sample size to show what's really happening with "random" matchmaking.  The numbers don't lie.  Here are the results.
672488411_Jan-JuneMM.png.3f151db7cba209783bc2a0bd25dd22b3.png

By itself, this long-term trend is somewhat annoying.  Unfortunately, it is getting worse.  In the month of July with several hundred games recorded the ratio of uptier vs downtier is nearly 2 to 1.1024628672_JulyMM.png.aa066cc7823e2460b5671904d0e13d2c.png

So the question arises - who is getting all these juicy 1 and 2 tier down games?  Tier 10 players obviously are benefitting since they are always top tier. 

I play mostly tiers 7&8 these days, and I am not benefitting, and my money is just as green as anyone else's playing this game.  The many contributors to this data collection are not, that's for sure.  What is certain is that some players are benefitting.  I don't expect WG to publicly explain this because it may have to do with "super-premium players" getting preferred matchmaking, but it's food for thought.  And there is mounting evidence that this is the case.  Numbers don't lie.

Since I’ve been here, 4 1/2 years, it’s always been like this. Complaining doesn’t do anything either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,772
[KWF]
Members
4,387 posts
6,405 battles
8 minutes ago, Yandere_Roon said:

I doubt unicum players get preferential MM, it's just they tend to play specific ships AND most of them play in divisions with voice chat, which pumps up their numbers. I imagine it's also the fact that most unicum players tend to play at tier 10, whilst the rest of us average joes tend to play tier 6, 7 and 8.

I can only speak for myself and I consider myself above average, but tier X gameplay is pretty stale and I don't see that many unicums. In fact I have seen most good players in the tier VII-IX bracket. 

Also, I would argue it's a matter of viewpoint. Being bottom tiered can be incredibly lucrative if you know what you are doing, since doing damage to higher tiers rewards more.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24
[DRAC0]
Members
60 posts
4,292 battles
47 minutes ago, Wye_So_Serious said:

Since I’ve been here, 4 1/2 years, it’s always been like this. Complaining doesn’t do anything either.

Information has value for consumers. In this case the information is about full disclosure, not complaining.  Wargaming goes out of its way to tout its matchmaking system as reasonable and fair, so here is the counterargument.  The uninitiated player will learn this through experience as I have, but this is for those who wonder what the truth of the matter is.  Wonder no more.

I've had people say, you get what you pay for and that's true to some degree.  It's also true that if you don't get what you pay for while someone else is getting more than they paid for, you can use your feet to walk away.  I've been at this game for a year and it is losing its luster quickly for me, mostly due to the mismatchmaking system.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24
[DRAC0]
Members
60 posts
4,292 battles
51 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

I can only speak for myself and I consider myself above average, but tier X gameplay is pretty stale and I don't see that many unicums. In fact I have seen most good players in the tier VII-IX bracket. 

Also, I would argue it's a matter of viewpoint. Being bottom tiered can be incredibly lucrative if you know what you are doing, since doing damage to higher tiers rewards more.

Yes, you are a unicum player, so matchmaking is almost irrelevant.  As I said, this doesn't apply to you. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7,847
[GWG]
[GWG]
Supertester
26,441 posts
14,165 battles

The MM aims for but does not guarantee no more than 40% bottom tier and your top graphic shows that. In the second one while you got a lot more bottom tier you also got a lot more same/middle tier. You need a lot more matches than you have in your sample to really see what is happening.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24
[DRAC0]
Members
60 posts
4,292 battles
1 hour ago, ArIskandir said:

All the sale's hook for the tiers system is obviously to reach the top of the ladder to always be top dog. In that sense it is working as intended, you'll get shafted by MM until you play tiers 9-10. Why do you expect it to be otherwise? 

Otoh, being undertiered makes for a different and more relaxed approach to the match, there is a tacit abdication of responsability. You are are not expected to make the play but to support the play, enjoy it for what it is. 

It is what it is, if you play 7-8, expect to be undertiered a lot. Want to be top tier? Play 9-10, but you gotta pay for that privilege.

Yes, of course, we know there is an incentive system.  WG is a business whose primary goal is to make money, which is perfectly fine with me.

Being the competitive person that I am, I don't take a more relaxed approach to matches where I am bottom tier, and that makes me a good teammate for those competing with me.  I actually focus a bit more since I know the competition is that much more challenging.  You can play any way you want to - I will play as I do, fair enough?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,192
[SYN]
Members
5,877 posts
13,296 battles

Still don't care.  It's not like WoT where being bottom tier is crippling.  And the MM is now more gentle than it's ever been.  There are additional bonuses for dealing damage against higher tiered opponents, which is not hard to do.  But that's never brought up, of course.  The sense of pride you get when you still end up on or near the top of the leaderboard.  I could go on...

Also, the OP's argument is flawed.  If one is getting uptiered all the time, the other guy has to be getting downtiered.  So, what about that other guy, then?

At any rate, it's just more of the same;  some people blaming external factors and making excuses for their own poor performance, and want better results to be handed to them.  That all this is ever about.

  • Cool 2
  • Meh 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24
[DRAC0]
Members
60 posts
4,292 battles
10 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

The MM aims for but does not guarantee no more than 40% bottom tier and your top graphic shows that. In the second one while you got a lot more bottom tier you also got a lot more same/middle tier. You need a lot more matches than you have in your sample to really see what is happening.

That's humorous, but your assertion isn't true.  Statistics and probability are both carefully managed in this large sample size over the last 6 months and broad enough so far in July to show a very clear trend in both uptiered games and double uptiered games, which have even greater consequences.  so far in July, the double uptiered games are nearly a full 1/3+ of total games played - and nearly 3/4 are uptiered games vs downtiered with the others (same tier) being a small fraction thereof.  The net effect is that "the average game" we're playing is always well above the one we're playing.

 

Jan-June MM - 4 tier split.png

Edited by _HoJo_

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,192
[SYN]
Members
5,877 posts
13,296 battles
1 hour ago, _HoJo_ said:

If you're a unicum player, this doesn't apply to you, and if you're a casual player, it doesn't apply to you so just hit the back button on your browser.

Oh, and regarding this exclusion:

HoJo, everyone, including unicorns, casuals, and brain-deads, are all playing exactly the same game with exactly the same matchmaker.  So whether you like it or not, or say so or not, it absolutely applies to everyone.

 

 

 

Edited by Kuckoo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24
[DRAC0]
Members
60 posts
4,292 battles
1 minute ago, Kuckoo said:

Oh, and regarding this exclusion:

HoJo, everyone, including unicorns, casuals, and brain-deads, are all playing exactly the same game with exactly the same matchmaker.  So whether you like it or not, or say so or not, it applies to absolutely everyone.

I was merely suggesting that this wouldn't be of much interest.  You may very well be benefitting from the current system, so why should you even care?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,192
[SYN]
Members
5,877 posts
13,296 battles
Just now, _HoJo_ said:

I was merely suggesting that this wouldn't be of much interest.  You may very well be benefitting from the current system, so why should you even care?

No more than literally anyone else playing could potentially benefit.

But saying that one "benefits from the current system" suggests people who do well in the game are only doing so because, based on your argument, they receive some form of favoritism from the matchmaker.  Which is absurd.

Everyone gets exactly the same treatment from the matchmaker.  It's up to the user to make the most of what they're dealt.  And if they don't, well, that's on them.

No one is impressed with your pie graphs.  You're just making dressed-up excuses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24
[DRAC0]
Members
60 posts
4,292 battles
6 minutes ago, Kuckoo said:

No more than literally anyone else playing could potentially benefit.

But saying that one "benefits from the current system" suggests people who do well in the game are only doing so because, based on your argument, they receive some form of favoritism from the matchmaker.  Which is absurd.

Everyone gets exactly the same treatment from the matchmaker.  It's up to the user to make the most of what they're dealt.  And if they don't, well, that's on them.

No one is impressed with your pie graphs.  You're just making dressed-up excuses.

I have the data, and I'm professionally a data scientist and an IT professional.  What I'm presenting is not only not absurd, it's provably and actually true.  You have never done a study on the matchmaker system as I have.  If you were trained (as I am) you could do a study that would find the same results with a huge sample of games, as I have done.

You are free to believe that "everyone gets the same exact treatment".  You are free to believe Santa Clause is God.  That's up to you.

Information that's easy to digest is presented here in pie graph form simply because it's easy.  I've got thousands of lines of data in a database that would not be worth looking at.  Would you rather I had posted these?  Give me a break and don't be a d--k.

Edited by _HoJo_

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
152
[AZUR1]
Members
108 posts
3,267 battles

The total number of active players is decreasing, including those so called "core players".

In WG's point of view, to minimize the match waiting time is more immportant then MM setting. In other words, uptire match % will continue increasing until nobody plays this game.

The only solution that WG accepted, is to increase the # of active players, so they tried many ways. Yes, they did try to do it through those updates. But about the reasults? Most of them are usless so far, some of them even further decrease the # of players, like the stupid, "core player only" puerto rico event, and this time-wasting, RNG german CV event.

 

You may have a better solution than WG's; but they probably will not listen, since it is not likely to generate more money to them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24
[DRAC0]
Members
60 posts
4,292 battles
2 minutes ago, Lancelot0001 said:

You may have a better solution than WG's; but they probably will not listen, since it is not likely to generate more money to them.

If that is directed at me, I'm not suggesting a "solution".  WG probably doesn't need or want one.  It's just an FYI - factual information for WoWs players/consumers.  Sunshine is the best disinfectant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,192
[SYN]
Members
5,877 posts
13,296 battles
11 minutes ago, _HoJo_ said:

I have the data, and I'm professionally a data scientist and an IT professional.  What I'm presenting is not only not absurd, it's provably and actually true.  You have never done a study on the matchmaker system as I have.  If you were trained (as I am) you could do a study that would find the same results with a huge sample of games, as I have done.

You are free to believe that "everyone gets the same exact treatment".  You are free to believe Santa Clause is God.  That's up to you.

Information that's easy to digest is presented here in pie graph form simply because it's easy.  I've got thousands of lines of data in a database that would not be worth looking at.  Would you rather I had posted these?  Give me a break and don't be a d--k.

You're also not terribly good at the game (to put it lightly) and you blame the matchmaker for it.  Simple as that.  There are 12-year-olds who come to this forum and do that.  What you say you do for a living is irrelevant.

 

 

 

Edited by Kuckoo
  • Thanks 1
  • Sad 1
  • Meh 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24
[DRAC0]
Members
60 posts
4,292 battles
2 minutes ago, Kuckoo said:

You're also not terribly good at the game (to put it lightly) and you blame the matchmaker for it.  Simple as that.  There are 12-year-olds who come to this forum and do that.  What you say you do for a living is irrelevant.

Ok, be a d--k.  This isn't even my account.  It's my son's.  He's 11.

Edited by _HoJo_

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
38 posts
199 battles
15 minutes ago, Kuckoo said:

No one is impressed with your pie graphs.  You're just making dressed-up excuses.

 

2 hours ago, _HoJo_ said:

 

We all enjoy a challenge and that's why we play WoWs.  Playing against better quality ships and often more experienced players is a serious challenge but we're up for it -
 

I would tell you to get a little better at the game, OP.  All this looks like to me is an overreaching excuse at not being able to succeed in ships. Nothing is wrong here with being bottom tier since in this game you can actually still contribute to the win, do massive damage if you know how, and still have fun. Plenty of matches at bottom tier that have been high damage wins. Get gud!

  • Meh 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7,847
[GWG]
[GWG]
Supertester
26,441 posts
14,165 battles
21 minutes ago, _HoJo_ said:

That's humorous, but your assertion isn't true.  Statistics and probability are both carefully managed in this large sample size over the last 6 months and broad enough so far in July to show a very clear trend in both uptiered games and double uptiered games, which have even greater consequences.  so far in July, the double uptiered games are nearly a full 1/3+ of total games played - and nearly 3/4 are uptiered games vs downtiered with the others (same tier) being a small fraction thereof.  The net effect is that "the average game" we're playing is always well above the one we're playing.

 

Jan-June MM - 4 tier split.png

Your sample size is not large enough, you need tens of thousands of matches to definitively say that something is happening. That 40% bottom tier is for three tier matches which your first graphic shows. Yes you are above 40% but over time it will get closer. Middle tier or bottom in two tier matches is not part of that and is not really an issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
38 posts
199 battles
3 minutes ago, Kuckoo said:

You're also not terribly good at the game (to put it lightly) and you blame the matchmaker for it.  Simple as that.  There are 12-year-olds who come to this forum and do that.  What you say you do for a living is irrelevant.

 

 

 

He aint wrong OP

And is this is truly your sons account... Where is yours then?

@_HoJo_

  • Meh 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24
[DRAC0]
Members
60 posts
4,292 battles
2 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

Your sample size is not large enough, you need tens of thousands of matches to definitively say that something is happening.

I'll match my PhD from MIT with any intellectual challenge you may think you're making.

Edited by _HoJo_
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×