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Usedcarjock

HMS Lion: Underwhelming and Perplexing

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I don’t know where to start with this one. HMS Lion thus far has been the most aggravating BB I have played to date. At least with Izumo I understood its place pre-buff: the trash can. HMS Lion struggles to find a home amongst a plethora of other ships at her tier, above and below, that perform her duties far better. I would go so far as to say Fat Freddie performs better than her. Having come off of Monarch to be given this piece of dignified trash was startling to say the least. It is a marked improvement over Monarch but that’s not saying much. Unlike other BBs I don’t feel like I can affect the outcome of battle as easily as an Iowa, much less a Georgia or Jean Bart. Where am I going wrong with this ship? I can’t play her aggressively and basically resort to holding the weak flank and spamming HR at bow on BBs.

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It's role is to soak Free XP so you can get to the Conkek. At least, that was my impression.

I'm also curious to know how the hell to HMS Lion, but after finishing that grind I have no intention of resetting that line - ever

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1 minute ago, Brohk said:

It's role is to soak Free XP so you can get to the Conkek. At least, that was my impression.

I'm also curious to know how the hell to HMS Lion, but after finishing that grind I have no intention of resetting that line - ever

Yup.

WG intentionally makes some ships painful to encourage freexp use to skip them...

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5 minutes ago, Brohk said:

It's role is to soak Free XP so you can get to the Conkek. At least, that was my impression.

I'm also curious to know how the hell to HMS Lion, but after finishing that grind I have no intention of resetting that line - ever

I’m only holding onto Fxp for resetting the IJN haragumo line. Otherwise I’d have Conkek by now.

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Statistically, she is one of the best performing Tech Tree BBs in Tier IX.

 

Personally, I don't like her.  When the RNBB Line came out, I FreeXP'd right away to the Promised Land of Conkeke.  419mm x12 is great.

It was only later that I decided to buy Lion and give her a whirl.  I had problems with her gunnery, 419mm x9, it was pretty inaccurate.  I thought 9 gun Lion would be more accurate with fewer guns than 12 gun Conqueror, the same way Iowa / Missouri are more accurate than 12 gun Montana.  Those 419s are pretty mediocre in accuracy.  The only reason they look so good is because Conqueror in Tier X packs 12 of them to mask the inaccuracy issues.  Even then, when I experimented with an AA Build on Conqueror (this was RTS CV era), which meant dropping ASM1 for AAGM1, even Conqueror's accuracy started looking woeful without ASM1.

 

Mind you, in the RTS CV days, I did lots of AA Builds.  I even did AA Gneisenau.  But Conqueror's accuracy without ASM1 was not to my liking.  Not one bit.  So a 9 gun Lion was an even bigger disappointment.

 

The worst part?  This was all before WG raised the Citadel on several RN BBs, to include Lion.  So she's worse now than she's ever been.

 

She's not a highlight ship of the RNBB Line.  That would be Tier VII King George V, and then you got to go through 2 mediocre tiers until you get to the goodness of Tier X Conqueror.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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2 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Yup.

WG intentionally makes some ships painful to encourage freexp use to skip them...

And they tend to be at Tier IX, where the mandatory hulls cost big XP. 

Izumo's original purpose in life was only to make people rage-convert XP. That early in the game mass FXP stashes / buff grinding wasn't a thing. That Izumo was awkward, underpowered and blatantly worse than the Amagi was not an accident. 

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Lion is pretty damn terrible, and since release has seen ships like Iowa, Izumo and FDG buffed by quite large extents, while she was never top-flight like JB, Georgia, Musashi etc.

Her characteristics lend themselves to a poor ship, and what's worse a deeply unrewarding one.

 

 

As others have said, Lion's purpose is to shake down the playerbase for FXP. A truly awful ship.

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4 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Statistically, she is one of the best performing Tech Tree BBs there.

What stats are you using?

Maplesyrup for Q2 2020 on NA has her:

9th of 11 on WR at 47.57% ahead of only Izumo and Iowa (which is frankly amazing)

7th of 11 on damage at 67.8k damage which is ok but not great when you consider she gains more damage from fire than the other BB's which is lower-impact and more repairable.

 

Lion's stats are trash. She's not good among tech tree battleships at her tier, or any tier.

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55 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Statistically, she is one of the best performing Tech Tree BBs in Tier IX.

 

Personally, I don't like her.  When the RNBB Line came out, I FreeXP'd right away to the Promised Land of Conkeke.  419mm x12 is great.

It was only later that I decided to buy Lion and give her a whirl.  I had problems with her gunnery, 419mm x9, it was pretty inaccurate.  I thought 9 gun Lion would be more accurate with fewer guns than 12 gun Conqueror, the same way Iowa / Missouri are more accurate than 12 gun Montana.  Those 419s are pretty mediocre in accuracy.  The only reason they look so good is because Conqueror in Tier X packs 12 of them to mask the inaccuracy issues.  Even then, when I experimented with an AA Build on Conqueror (this was RTS CV era), which meant dropping ASM1 for AAGM1, even Conqueror's accuracy started looking woeful without ASM1.

 

Mind you, in the RTS CV days, I did lots of AA Builds.  I even did AA Gneisenau.  But Conqueror's accuracy without ASM1 was not to my liking.  Not one bit.  So a 9 gun Lion was an even bigger disappointment.

 

The worst part?  This was all before WG raised the Citadel on several RN BBs, to include Lion.  So she's worse now than she's ever been.

 

She's not a highlight ship of the RNBB Line.  That would be Tier VII King George V, and then you got to go through 2 mediocre tiers until you get to the goodness of Tier X Conqueror.

Yeah that raising of the citadels has been a disaster as their armor has always been thin enough to pretty much always get full pens with AP shells and eats up HE shells pretty well. And now they can get completely blown out of the water thanks to how easily they eat citadel hits.

And for some stupid and unjust reason even Duke of York had her citadel raised resulting in her being unusable to me now when she used to be one of my best ships. As a Premium ship she should have been free of such changes as citadels are a part of the actual armor of ships and as such was a blatant direct nerf to a premium ship.

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44 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

She's not a highlight ship of the RNBB Line.  That would be Tier VII King George V, and then you got to go through 2 mediocre tiers until you get to the goodness of Tier X Conqueror.

Wouldn’t know.

Had Warspite and Hood, got Vanguard, didn’t see any reason to go past Iron Duke until I got bored one day and picked up QE.

RN battleships have been out how long now?

When they release Prince with smoke, I might finally get a KGV. Not interested in Monarch or anything higher.

People joke about ‘Conkek,’ but RNGesus just laughs and tells me to go (redacted) myself when it comes to all things overmatch; no point in going there.

What’s that? No smoke on a KGV? I beg to differ...

 

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looks like Im one of the few who thought she was such a good ship that it was worth keeping her

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1 minute ago, Dareios said:

looks like Im one of the few who thought she was such a good ship that it was worth keeping her

She used to be something good, but these days I target it with BB and even Heavy CA AP seeking easy and quick citadels added to my damage scores.

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Your doing it all wrong. Lion is one of the best bbs in the game at tier 9. Use the he shells to farm fires. Thats its play style. Stop using AP like lion is a regular BB. Its not.

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The way to play Lion is forget her namesake and instead play her as if she was named HMS Hyena. You sit on the flank and burn stuff until they put you in the mindless HE spam bucket and then you hope to RNGeebus that your AP salvo into their broadside doesn't completely dunk thanks to now having the worst dispersion profile for BB AP after the KM BB buff.

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1 hour ago, mofton said:

What stats are you using?

Maplesyrup for Q2 2020 on NA has her:

9th of 11 on WR at 47.57% ahead of only Izumo and Iowa (which is frankly amazing)

7th of 11 on damage at 67.8k damage which is ok but not great when you consider she gains more damage from fire than the other BB's which is lower-impact and more repairable.

 

Lion's stats are trash. She's not good among tech tree battleships at her tier, or any tier.

RU server, 2nd Quarter 2020.  I am using their stats more because of the far larger sample sizes / battles they play compared to miniscule NA server.  This is the server WG pays attention to.

Funny example is Shimakaze:  619,715 Battles played in that quarter.

 

Izumo 46.01% WR / 58,135 Dmg Avg

FDG 47.41% WR / 57,841 Dmg Avg

Alsace 48.5% / 67,034

Lion 47.49% / 66,224

S.Soyuz 48.76% / 60,595

Iowa 46.42% / 58,118

 

I exclude the Premiums because the Premium Ships don't have to do Stock Module Grinds that the Tech Tree Ships do.  Let me know when Premium Ships have to do Stock Module Grinds.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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Lion is tanky, just designed with HE spam at long ranges and AP for broadside targets. Here's how I made her work:

1) Forget brawling. MB turn too slowly, secondaries aren't worth squat, and your armor is that of a battlecruiser

2) Focus CRs. Your HE is ideal for raw damage; with the good fire chance, even a super-cruiser like Alaska will attempt to disengage quickly. Taking out DDs' support is where the Lion excels; I've found that of all the T9 BBs (haven't played the Russian one), Lion has the best results HE spamming cruisers.

3) Your super heal is about absorbing HE and fire damage. Takes practice, but in general, Lion is great when need to swap out tanks, let a green BB pull back to heal.

4) If someone else is HE spamming a BB, add yours and aim for the superstructure.

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I didn't care for KGV at all... and generally have disliked the RN BB line. 

Currently sitting on Monarch, could get Lion if I wanted right now but haven't felt any motivation to do so.

 

 

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40 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Wouldn’t know.

Had Warspite and Hood, got Vanguard, didn’t see any reason to go past Iron Duke until I got bored one day and picked up QE.

RN battleships have been out how long now?

When they release Prince with smoke, I might finally get a KGV. Not interested in Monarch or anything higher.

People joke about ‘Conkek,’ but RNGesus just laughs and tells me to go (redacted) myself when it comes to all things overmatch; no point in going there.

What’s that? No smoke on a KGV? I beg to differ...

 

Still doesn't hide the fact that KGV and Conqueror are performers, whether you like it or not.

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35 minutes ago, MackDye said:

Your doing it all wrong. Lion is one of the best bbs in the game at tier 9. Use the he shells to farm fires. Thats its play style. Stop using AP like lion is a regular BB. Its not.

Except I do use it like a fire hose. The Lion cannot turn matches like most of the other Tier IX ships can.

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The only ship in the RN BB line I felt was underwhelming was Monarch, and even that was playable. I was rather impressed by Lion when I first tried her out. I loved the HE performance and the heal. That's pretty much all you need to make the ship work. If that doesn't work for you then maybe the line isn't for you. I also loved Izumo even pre-buffs. Her gun ballistics were the main focus here, they outperform french guns in terms of speed and raw pen, while also being 410mm. 

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Yeah sadly both the tier 8 AND tier 9 are very underwhelming on the RN BB front. The stars of the RN are, in my experience, the Queen Liz with her very accurate 381mm AP pen, which makes here closer to the warspite and thus incredibly different from the rest of the RN BB line, though why she has a 72 second turret traverse vs the Warspites like 45 seconds I don't know...

And, as have been mentioned by others, the KGV. It's the KV-2 of WoWs. Crap armour, hard hitting HE with a high fire chance means it doesn't give a crap if it's uptiered but it can slam lightly armoured targets with AP to catch them by surprise (the amount of cruisers I've had sail broadside infront of me because they think I'm going to just stick to HE...)

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34 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Still doesn't hide the fact that KGV and Conqueror are performers, whether you like it or not.

Oh, wouldn’t deny that. Just currently find no reason to invest in getting them.

I apparently am rock stupid when it comes to strategically positioning in battleships, combined with my long range aim being atrocious; so there’s pretty much zero fun in playing them in higher tiers.

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1 minute ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Oh, wouldn’t deny that. Just currently find no reason to invest in getting them.

I apparently am rock stupid when it comes to strategically positioning in battleships, combined with my long range aim being atrocious; so there’s pretty much zero fun in playing them in higher tiers.

It's just that I still remember all the people whining about Conqueror's HE salvo and her ability to "reprint a new hull."  This old thread from when the line was new was just amazing.  I had a field day in it :Smile_teethhappy:

 

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The monarch was bad imo.  The Lion however was very impressive.  Nice concealment, solid armor,  HE shells of domination and upgraded AP shells for knock the pants off the unsuspecting.  To top it all off,  a new ship every minute 30 or whatever it is.   Whats to complain about?

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1 hour ago, KilljoyCutter said:

I didn't care for KGV at all... and generally have disliked the RN BB line. 

Currently sitting on Monarch, could get Lion if I wanted right now but haven't felt any motivation to do so.

 

 

Only really good RN BBs that am have high respect for are Queen Elizabeth, Warspite, Nelson, pre recent citadel nerf Duke of York, Hood, and Thunderer. Other than these BBs I just listed the rest are and have been soft armored fire spammers instead of AP wielding armored BBs like most other BBs in the game are.

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