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RacerNC

Radar Counterplay

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As with all things, balance is needed, that said:

Given that other modules are able to be incapacitated, can we get the ability to incapacitate radar to have some counterplay to it other than just getting shot to pieces?

If for example, a cruiser comes up on a DD in smoke and lights him up with radar, the DD has no defense other than to run.  In most cases with say a 12km radar and 6km detection range, the DD will not be able to leave the 12km range before it expires and will likely be set ablaze extending their native visibility while they run.  If a DD at least has a chance to stand and fight by firing at the superstructure of the radar ship, it may give them a fighting chance and have some incentive for people to bring something other than a radar cruiser into a match.

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The trick for DDs is to NOT be within radar range of a radar ship without an island or escape route determined.

If you get lit-up by a radar cruiser 6-9kms from you after you smoke up, then that is on you.  DDs need to give ground and keep a "smart" distance from radar ships.  As someone you favors DD gameplay, I get the desire to hate on radar but it only really gets to be a problem when you have 2-3 radar ships in the same area and you have no other choice than to leave since you can't spot for the team and you can't cap until they kill off some of these cruisers.

Planes are the real devils and they are testing a nerf to plane spotting on DDs on the PTS now.

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I agree with the OP.

 

However, this would mean other modules will also need to have HP assigned.  Smoke generator, AA defence and Hydro to name a few.

 

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48 minutes ago, RacerNC said:

As with all things, balance is needed, that said:

Given that other modules are able to be incapacitated, can we get the ability to incapacitate radar to have some counterplay to it other than just getting shot to pieces?

If for example, a cruiser comes up on a DD in smoke and lights him up with radar, the DD has no defense other than to run.  In most cases with say a 12km radar and 6km detection range, the DD will not be able to leave the 12km range before it expires and will likely be set ablaze extending their native visibility while they run.  If a DD at least has a chance to stand and fight by firing at the superstructure of the radar ship, it may give them a fighting chance and have some incentive for people to bring something other than a radar cruiser into a match.

In wows terms radar isnt a module, it's a consumable limited use resource.

 As a DD player would you like to make your smoke, speed and reload boosters, hydro, etc subject to being knocked out?

 Imagine getting your smoke knocked out early in a match by a rocket attack... be careful what you wish for.

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58 minutes ago, RacerNC said:

In most cases with say a 12km radar and 6km detection range, the DD will not be able to leave the 12km range before it expires and will likely be set ablaze extending their native visibility while they run

What has your own detection range to do with the radar? If I see a radar ship within 10 or 12 km approaching or on a flank, I keep my distance at around their radar range. Depending on whether there are islands or other obstacles to hide behind, you can get closer. Other than that, keep your distance and try to get your team to shoot  the radar cruiser, torp the cruiser or just keep it spotted/disengage. Half the battle with radar CA/CL in the red team is to stay alive until they are spotted and/or taken care of. Then when the radar is on the other side of the map or even better joined the submarine corps, you can be more aggressive as a DD.

I do think though that the larger number of 12km cruiser should somewhat lead to an increase of average torp range from 10km to 12km to account for the shift in balance, but other than that radars are not that huge of a deal.

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This smacks of someone who simply can't figure out how to counterplay something by looking at their minimap.

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I prefer to let radar boats eat 10km or 12km torpedoes while they hide stationery behind islands.

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37 minutes ago, Dr_Drunk_AKA said:

This smacks of someone who simply can't figure out how to counterplay something by looking at their minimap.

I think that it's more than you assert..........  Radar is a binary tool: it's on and 100% effective or it's off and not being used....  Yes, we can read the mini-map but, the mere presence of Radar limits what we can do.....  Because, once it is on, it is 100% effective and as a DD, you can't even break even in that encounter.  The CA is hiding behind an Island with the A & B turrets out and you can't fight back.  So, where was there an equal chance or even a balanced system>?  The CA gets all of the value and the DD spends most of the game not earning any value........  Remember, your BB's and CA's are hiding behind Island too and they have ZERO interest in a DD's needs...!   This is a cooperative FPS and all they care about is their points, kills and damage....  They EXPECT you to die with no value for them........Then, if you survive all of that, you die by Rocket Plane at the end of the match because planes heal and control the entire map; and, DD's mostly don't, can't out run them; and, all but a very few DD's can fight back.  WOW, my mini-map sure has some real value in fixing this.........

It is not "value added" to play DD's anymore.  So, to make the best use of your limited time, avoid Randoms or Ranked battles and play COOP & Scenarios (whenever they return --  If they return.)  You see all of the stomps everyday???  That's because thousands of us aren't playing Randoms anymore......  So long as Radar does not have a 1 : 1 remediation (Chaff, Jamming or one ship = one radar) we won't be back.......  You do understand the concept of No-Go Terrain, yes.....??  Detection means nothing anymore. 

Yep, I can read a mini-map and it says:  Don't play Randoms........  There's no ROI for my time; it isn't value-added at all; and, there is no point anymore.    Sorry, you and the other Radar heroes: have fun with endless stomps............

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3 hours ago, RacerNC said:

If for example, a cruiser comes up on a DD in smoke and lights him up with radar, the DD has no defense other than to run. 

Other options include, but not limited to:

JUST GUN THE RADAR CRUISER DOWN

Radar does not give him invincibility nor does it do damage to you.

If he radars you just fight him and beat him, the same way a cruiser can burn down a Battleship.

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I don’t struggle much with radar ships, as I’m not a big fan of sitting in smoke, and know the ranges. But I do like the idea of radars being damaged - those things were notorious for getting knocked out sometimes even by the muzzle blast of their own guns. So taking battle damage to modules is not a bad idea at all. 

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5 hours ago, Jitta77 said:

The trick for DDs is to NOT be within radar range of a radar ship without an island or escape route determined.

If you get lit-up by a radar cruiser 6-9kms from you after you smoke up, then that is on you.  DDs need to give ground and keep a "smart" distance from radar ships.  As someone you favors DD gameplay, I get the desire to hate on radar but it only really gets to be a problem when you have 2-3 radar ships in the same area and you have no other choice than to leave since you can't spot for the team and you can't cap until they kill off some of these cruisers.

Planes are the real devils and they are testing a nerf to plane spotting on DDs on the PTS now.

I'll just play this 18-24 charges of radar smart by just being outside of range to cap, spot or do damage for the entire round.That is not hyperbole. At least I can smoke up against planes or try to dodge. You cant really do anything of that against an aura that goes out 12km in all directions covering 24km around the ship. 

 

Exhibit:A 

Happened about 10 min ago.

 

image.thumb.png.348cbbd4e7e6fa0c69d8388a2ea8286f.png

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Ban_CV_Complainers said:

I'll just play this 18-24 charges of radar smart by just being outside of range to cap, spot or do damage for the entire round.That is not hyperbole. At least I can smoke up against planes or try to dodge. You cant really do anything of that against an aura that goes out 12km in all directions covering 24km around the ship. 

 

Exhibit:A 

Happened about 10 min ago.

 

image.thumb.png.348cbbd4e7e6fa0c69d8388a2ea8286f.png

 

 

Did you setup your Grozovoi wrong? You really ought to run it with one gun range increasing mod or skill.

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How to beat radar cruiser in a DD(requires radar range knowledge) :

Step 1: Find a radar cruiser

Step 2: Enter a cap while preparing your ship to run away/hide near an island.

Step 3: Get radared and run away. Wait few seconds

Step4: Profit

 

 

I'll give you this advice free of charge, it's on me 

Edited by AlcatrazNC
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5 hours ago, AlcatrazNC said:

How to beat radar cruiser in a DD(requires radar range knowledge) :

Step 1: Find a radar cruiser

Step 2: Enter a cap while preparing your ship to run away/hide near an island.

Step 3: Get radared and run away. Wait few seconds

Step4: Profit

 

 

I'll give you this advice free of charge, it's on me 

Stop making SENSE!  That's not allowed around here.

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5 hours ago, AlcatrazNC said:

How to beat radar cruiser in a DD(requires radar range knowledge) :

Step 1: Find a radar cruiser

Step 2: Enter a cap while preparing your ship to run away/hide near an island.

Step 3: Get radared and run away. Wait few seconds

Step4: Profit

 

 

I'll give you this advice free of charge, it's on me 

:cap_look:

2 minutes ago, Dr_Drunk_AKA said:

Stop making SENSE!  That's not allowed around here.

:Smile_veryhappy:

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8 hours ago, Ban_CV_Complainers said:

I'll just play this 18-24 charges of radar smart by just being outside of range to cap, spot or do damage for the entire round.That is not hyperbole. At least I can smoke up against planes or try to dodge. You cant really do anything of that against an aura that goes out 12km in all directions covering 24km around the ship. 

 

Exhibit:A 

Happened about 10 min ago.

 

image.thumb.png.348cbbd4e7e6fa0c69d8388a2ea8286f.png

 

 

That's insane. 

 

Edited by Taichunger

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Mitigation is not counterplay.

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On 7/17/2020 at 11:28 PM, DolphinPrincess said:

Other options include, but not limited to:

JUST GUN THE RADAR CRUISER DOWN

Radar does not give him invincibility nor does it do damage to you.

If he radars you just fight him and beat him, the same way a cruiser can burn down a Battleship.

This, oh so THIS! I love getting into blazing gun duels with cruisers  with my Gaede and Z-39.

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Yes, please shoot all your guns at the top of my mast instead of my hull, so 95% of your shots miss completely!

Actually, I’m not entirely opposed to this idea.  Torp tubes get knocked out, so why not radar, hydro?  Make them non-functional for a period of time, then they have to reload.

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15 hours ago, chewonit said:

Mitigation is not counterplay.

Care to elaborate?

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to be honest the game is full of "edited" mechanics that need to be reworked or at least reconsidered

BBs have no counter against HE spammers behind islands or thick torpedo soup other than stay as far as posible from them

cruisers cant do much VS large caliber AP that can overmatch most of its armor and go right  for its citadel

DDs get owned by radar the moment they try to get close

all in all the game heavily punish anyone who dares to go first or god forbid plays agresive.  

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2 hours ago, pepe_trueno said:

all in all the game heavily punish anyone who dares to go first or god forbid plays agresive.

I mean, the marketing says 'the thinking mans game', doesn't it? /sarcasm

There are some mechanics that are not really doing well for how the game is played, and HE spam, proliferation of radar, and 18" guns are the most often cited ones. But most of these can still be worked around, it might just not be as much fun in that moment.

But to take a page from the CV players book here, what do you expect? Immunity of DDs against spotting, while BBs are immune to torps and HE spam is just fireworks and no damage? Sure there might be need to rebalance some of the offending ships, but overall I don't think this is as bad as the PvE interaction that CVs are (sorry I just had to bring that up again).

 

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On 7/18/2020 at 10:43 AM, chewonit said:

Mitigation is not counterplay.

In a game where HP is a resource to be used,  dang right mitigation is counterplay.

 

The object of this game is to win.


There is no bonus given for having the most HP on your team every 30 seconds.

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The only radar counter play currently is distance and sinking the radar ship. It's a magical super power.  

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46 minutes ago, shinytrashcan said:

I mean, the marketing says 'the thinking mans game', doesn't it? /sarcasm

There are some mechanics that are not really doing well for how the game is played, and HE spam, proliferation of radar, and 18" guns are the most often cited ones. But most of these can still be worked around, it might just not be as much fun in that moment.

But to take a page from the CV players book here, what do you expect? Immunity of DDs against spotting, while BBs are immune to torps and HE spam is just fireworks and no damage? Sure there might be need to rebalance some of the offending ships, but overall I don't think this is as bad as the PvE interaction that CVs are (sorry I just had to bring that up again).

 

no one is asking for inmunity but would be nice the game didnt revolve around mechanics that hard counter other ships, for instance:

makes superstructure saturation point be 40-50% of ships health instead of 80% aswell as add a fire saturation point at wich the ship starts taking less damage from fires 

replace overmatch with better normalisation to make angling less effective vs large caliber AP but still a viable strategy

as for radar and DDs i dont think there is an easy way out, either we have radar and dds main selling points is neutered or we dont have radars and DDs run rampant stealth torping everyone.  May be give all ships  a passive radar that sends a ping that spots enemy ships for 1 second every 30 seconds and then give radar ships a consumable that accelerates the rate so its 1 second every 5 seconds. 

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