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PTS Rocket rework video by toptier

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Congrats people...now the Graf Zepplin and Saipain are even MORE useless than they already are whilst the main culprits. The Audacious, Midway/Lexington are barely touched (if the US switch to the HVARs) and it's actually a BUFF to the IJN rocket planes...

I get the feeling people won't stop complaining about CVs until literally every ship in the game shoots down an entire squadron before it reaches them because god forbid a single attack make it through.

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Stop automating my only defence against a player attacking me and I’ll stop asking for that automated system to delete your planes for me since skill has no involvement in the interaction. 

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1 minute ago, Pulicat said:

Stop automating my only defence against a player attacking me and I’ll stop asking for that automated system to delete your planes for me since skill has no involvement in the interaction. 

But you were fine with it PRIOR to the CV rework...which had more planes and higher Alpha and DDs were EQUALLY helpless against CVs who, if they were smart, would crossdrop DDs and delete them from existence or have fighters hovering above them near constantly...

Also notice how the biggest culprits, the US CVs, basically haven't changed, they'll stop using Tiny Tims and just use HVAR, which means they've got EVEN MORE of an incentive to go after DDs...

Edited by Yandere_Roon
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Just now, Yandere_Roon said:

But you were fine with it PRIOR to the CV rework...which had more planes and higher Alpha and DDs were EQUALLY helpless against CVs who, if they were smart, would crossdrop DDs and delete them from existence or have fighters hovering above them near constantly...

Hm... nope can’t say I was fine with it then either, I asked for controlled aa too. You could say in rts it wasn’t as railed against because those attacks actually took co-ordination, skill and reflexes to perform. Not so much in rework though, if you can believe it. AA was also actually dangerous in rts if you build for it, and many ships could crush entire squadrons of non regenerating planes that can’t nanobot heal through your aa. Also in a 15 minute game the rework carriers end up having more planes.

anything else wrong you want to add?

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Looking at this,  I assume they have not instituted the lowered spotting detection range mechanics to PTS yet?     And I know that Top tier understands that reticle well enough to know that his attack angles were mostly less than optimal in this demonstration.. So that seemed misleading?    I do see it being a small nerf to most rocket planes, just because you'll have to work a little harder to line up rocket attack angles well against small targets  However I'm still a lot more interested in the detection range changes...   Clearly to me it didn't look like those were in effect yet?   

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23 minutes ago, Yandere_Roon said:

But you were fine with it PRIOR to the CV rework...which had more planes and higher Alpha and DDs were EQUALLY helpless against CVs who, if they were smart, would crossdrop DDs and delete them from existence or have fighters hovering above them near constantly...

Also notice how the biggest culprits, the US CVs, basically haven't changed, they'll stop using Tiny Tims and just use HVAR, which means they've got EVEN MORE of an incentive to go after DDs...

And before the rework CVs in games were so rare as to be meaningless. 

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Just now, iRA6E said:

Looking at this,  I assume they have not instituted the spotting detection range mechanics to PTS yet?     And I know that Top tier understands that reticle well enough to know that his attack angles were mostly less than optimal in this demonstration.. So that seemed misleading?    I do see it being a small nerf to most rocket planes, just because you'll have to work a little harder to line up rocket attack angles well against small targets  However I'm still a lot more interested in the detection range changes...   Clearly to me it didn't look like those were in effect yet?   

It doesn't look like those are live no. I did watch the entire video because of the reasons you stated, his first set of attacks were non-optimal so I wanted to see if he did ones that were, he does do them later in the video. Still it is a nerf that the GZ (who has had several 'global nerfs' one after the other) and the Saipan definitely didn't need whilst it barely effects the US CVs, who will just use HVARs and is actually a buff to the IJN and RN CV rocket planes if they attack optimally, meaning more rockets on target.

So all the change did was just nerf Tiny Tims on the US CVs and nerf the GZ and Saipan..

5 minutes ago, Pulicat said:

Hm... nope can’t say I was fine with it then either, I asked for controlled aa too. You could say in rts it wasn’t as railed against because those attacks actually took co-ordination, skill and reflexes to perform. Not so much in rework though, if you can believe it. AA was also actually dangerous in rts if you build for it, and many ships could crush entire squadrons of non regenerating planes that can’t nanobot heal through your aa. Also in a 15 minute game the rework carriers end up having more planes.

anything else wrong you want to add?

I PLAYED during the RTS days, just because this is my NA account doesn't mean you can treat me like a rube who doesn't know anything (feel free to check DrMechano on stats sites for my EU account, you can see the pre US CL/CA split for the Cleveland). I know AA was dangerous, for giggles I use to run an AA focused QE which could actually shred planes. So don't treat me like an idiot who doesn't know any better thank you. Also since your complaining that because you can't control AA you'd be happy with swarms of AI controlled planes (because they'd have to buff the numbers since they couldn't dodge flak) where the CV just clicks on a target and the planes attack them, because then it'd be automated too...ok lets do that then, see how much fun you have. 

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Just now, Yandere_Roon said:

It doesn't look like those are live no. I did watch the entire video because of the reasons you stated, his first set of attacks were non-optimal so I wanted to see if he did ones that were, he does do them later in the video. Still it is a nerf that the GZ (who has had several 'global nerfs' one after the other) and the Saipan definitely didn't need whilst it barely effects the US CVs, who will just use HVARs and is actually a buff to the IJN and RN CV rocket planes if they attack optimally, meaning more rockets on target.

So all the change did was just nerf Tiny Tims on the US CVs and nerf the GZ and Saipan..

 

Saipan's were literally garbage against DDs prior to this.  I have some matches with those at times,  trying to target DDs and literally can whiff on them for an entire match .    On the other hands GZ's were quite good, probably the only thing it did really well since all the "Global" &  Enterprise nerfs...   Looks like they'll still be quite good if you can catch a DD broadside?  Of course that will not be easy.   GZ really starting to get beat up by all this.   I personally think Saipan's/Midway/lex TT  rockets will actually be better with this reticle.. against Heavy cruisers and BBs Tiny Tims fired well should be more efficient.   With the spotting change and this one, what WG is doing as usual is taking a proverbial sledge hammer to a problem IMO...  However it is going to make playing a CV easier IMO...  Farm damage off capital ships early. often and late... stop worrying about team play and spotting DDs.   Of course this is going to make potato DD players even worse and they will die faster as result.  Good DD players who understand stealth well will become almost impervious to CVs unless that CV player wants to dedicate a whole game to chasing them around?    Something probably needed to give with it/  We'll see.   

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2 minutes ago, iRA6E said:

Saipan's were literally garbage against DDs prior to this.  I have some matches with those at times,  trying to target DDs and literally can whiff on them for an entire match .    On the other hands GZ's were quite good, probably the only thing it did really well since all the "Global" &  Enterprise nerfs...   Looks like they'll still be quite good if you can catch a DD broadside?  Of course that will not be easy.   GZ really starting to get beat up by all this.   I personally think Saipan's/Midway/lex TT  rockets will actually be better with this reticle.. against Heavy cruisers and BBs Tiny Tims fired well should be more efficient.   With the spotting change and this one, what WG is doing as usual is taking a proverbial sledge hammer to a problem IMO...  However it is going to make playing a CV easier IMO...  Farm damage off capital ships early. often and late... stop worrying about team play and spotting DDs.   Of course this is going to make potato DD players even worse and they will die faster as result.  Good DD players who understand stealth well will become almost impervious to CVs unless that CV player wants to dedicate a whole game to chasing them around?    Something probably needed to give with it/  We'll see.   

Yup...I fully expect after these changes to go through to see a massive uptick in the amount of BB players moaning about CVs because they're being consistently targeted whilst the CV ignores DDs.

It just never god damn ends...

...you know what...at this point, screw it. WG just do a full reset, give people back their money on CVs and strip them out of the game. You're clearly inept at balancing them in order to make them both fun AND functional...I give up.

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13 minutes ago, Yandere_Roon said:

 

I PLAYED during the RTS days, just because this is my NA account doesn't mean you can treat me like a rube who doesn't know anything (feel free to check DrMechano on stats sites for my EU account, you can see the pre US CL/CA split for the Cleveland). I know AA was dangerous, for giggles I use to run an AA focused QE which could actually shred planes. So don't treat me like an idiot who doesn't know any better thank you. Also since your complaining that because you can't control AA you'd be happy with swarms of AI controlled planes (because they'd have to buff the numbers since they couldn't dodge flak) where the CV just clicks on a target and the planes attack them, because then it'd be automated too...ok lets do that then, see how much fun you have. 

I didn’t base anything I said off of any experience you may or may not have. Simply responded to what you said. If you don’t want people to think that way of you, then don’t talk like it. I mean, you just jumped to assuming I didn’t have a problem with auto aa in rts, so who is really judging who here?
whatever else you said after doesn’t make sense to me. I don’t want anything automated in a pvp game unless it’s equal like a strategy game. Certainly not one sided like we have. Why shouldn’t my skill in fighting against a player in planes come through in a pvp interaction?

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Would rebalancing RTS carriers have been easier?  18 months and here we are with the gift that keeps on giving.

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7 minutes ago, Rustyhole said:

Would rebalancing RTS carriers have been easier?  18 months and here we are with the gift that keeps on giving.

Honestly it would have...I'm really not sure WHY WG decided to go the whole 'rip it all out, start from the ground up' approach because it basically meant they're now having to spend AGES balancing an entirely new mechanic instead of just focusing and tweaking the old mechanic..

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WoW  OP posts misleading video. 

1 hour ago, Yandere_Roon said:

Congrats people...now the Graf Zepplin and Saipain are even MORE useless than they already are whilst the main culprits. The Audacious, Midway/Lexington are barely touched (if the US switch to the HVARs) and it's actually a BUFF to the IJN rocket planes...

I get the feeling people won't stop complaining about CVs until literally every ship in the game shoots down an entire squadron before it reaches them because god forbid a single attack make it through.

Posts misleading video of a guy deliberately attacking from bad angles when he wants a ship to look bad, ignoring and cutting the parts where he attacks from the correct angles doing massive damage to the DDs. 

Then OP goes unhinged, making misleading statements based on the false video he posts. 

 

Then lastly tries to start a poo flinging contest in the comments.  

 

High quality Material here /s

Edited by eviltane
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3 minutes ago, eviltane said:

WoW  OP posts misleading video. 

Wow Posts misleading video of a guy deliberately attacking from bad angles when he wants a ship to look bad  , in the ignoring and cutting the parts where he attacks from the correct angles doing massive damage to the DDs. 

Then OP goes on unhinged rant , making misleading statements based on the false video he posts. 

 

Then lastly tries to start a poo flinging contest in the comments.  

 

High quality Material here /s

Or you could have actually read the post where I point out it literally does NOTHING to the main culprits of Rocket Attacks, HVAR using Midway and Lexington. It's a BUFF to the IJN and RN rocket planes and a nerf to the Graf Zepplin and Saipain, two of the already struggling CVs...it literally is a lip-service change...if you'd have watched the video as well he DOES do correct attacks on them. The point of the GZ and Saipan rocket planes (along with the tiny tims) was they took more to aim for DDs because the reticle took much longer to narrow down but could be used from any angle and even then could whiff. The rest of the rocket planes are just blanket area bombardment so you're still going to get SOME hits because there's just so many rockets...which the GZ and Saipan don't have...

Edited by Yandere_Roon

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45 minutes ago, iRA6E said:

Saipan's were literally garbage against DDs prior to this.  I have some matches with those at times,  trying to target DDs and literally can whiff on them for an entire match .    On the other hands GZ's were quite good, probably the only thing it did really well since all the "Global" &  Enterprise nerfs...   Looks like they'll still be quite good if you can catch a DD broadside?  Of course that will not be easy.   GZ really starting to get beat up by all this.   I personally think Saipan's/Midway/lex TT  rockets will actually be better with this reticle.. against Heavy cruisers and BBs Tiny Tims fired well should be more efficient.   With the spotting change and this one, what WG is doing as usual is taking a proverbial sledge hammer to a problem IMO...  However it is going to make playing a CV easier IMO...  Farm damage off capital ships early. often and late... stop worrying about team play and spotting DDs.   Of course this is going to make potato DD players even worse and they will die faster as result.  Good DD players who understand stealth well will become almost impervious to CVs unless that CV player wants to dedicate a whole game to chasing them around?    Something probably needed to give with it/  We'll see.   

At this point, they should just remove the HE rocket planes and replace them with HE dive bombs. At least then the primary goal (damage against big targets) is preserved...while skilled captains could still try to go after DDs...but the DDs have a chance to ACTUALLY dodge...

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10 minutes ago, Yandere_Roon said:

Honestly it would have...I'm really not sure WHY WG decided to go the whole 'rip it all out, start from the ground up' approach because it basically meant they're now having to spend AGES balancing an entirely new mechanic instead of just focusing and tweaking the old mechanic..

 

19 minutes ago, Rustyhole said:

Would rebalancing RTS carriers have been easier?  18 months and here we are with the gift that keeps on giving.

 

Balance was not the real issue with RTS carriers, in fact that  was terrible,  It was just hidden by the primary problem with RTS CVS.. the mechanics sucked and players didn't like it for the most part.  the population was non existent.   While that was fine with the Anti_CV crowd...  it literally negated a considerable amount of game design.  captains skills, upgrades, modules, signals.....    Even some ships were made less and without purpose by not having planes with any consistency in battles.   This game since alpha was always designed around having a carrier as a consistent integral part of the game.    RTS was a failed mechanic, that never caught on with the player base.   Most of the same interaction issues from RTS still exist today with the rework..   It's just heightened by the simple fact that players now encounter them on a much more frequent basis.  That has had a considerable impact on the metas that players became accustomed to in a CV-less environment and frankly that a lot of ships were balanced around over the 4.5 years prior to the rework.    

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6 minutes ago, Yandere_Roon said:

Or you could have actually read the post where I point out it literally does NOTHING to the main culprits of Rocket Attacks, HVAR using Midway and Lexington. It's a BUFF to the IJN and RN rocket planes and a nerf to the Graf Zepplin and Saipain, two of the already struggling CVs...it literally is a lip-service change...

They realigned the crosshairs so they are in line with everyone else...........  And this changes nothing that in this video the Rocket planes are deliberately attacking from the wrong angles to make them look weak.  

Edited by eviltane

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1 minute ago, eviltane said:

They realigned the crosshairs so they are in line with everyone else...........  And this changes nothing that in this video the Rocket planes are deliberately attacking from the wrong angles to make them look weak. 

I edited the comment to address this further up. Sorry always think of something more to say after I've posted. The other thing this does is, because of the wider aiming circle, causes the GZ and Saipan rockets to be spread out over a further area rather than concentrated like in the case with TTs and those two rocket planes, so now the GZ has crap rocket planes, crap AP bombs and crap Torpedoes...like why on earth would you buy either of them over the Kaga, who can throw planes around like they just don't care?

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On 7/17/2020 at 2:42 PM, Yandere_Roon said:

balancing an entirely new mechanic instead of just focusing and tweaking the old mechanic..

Their complete changes up how CV is played (RTS vs FPS/Third Person view), did garner many interests from players really disliked (didn't get acquainted) with RTS styles.  Including myself.  CV was never my thing to start with but with the changes, I have tipped my toes into CV game play...continuously to learn how to mitigate their damages.

I really believe that, WG will not adopt another big change to revert to older or move forward with the system that it is now.  The only viable path I can envision is just by tweaking values here and there to meet their data sets.  Which in turn will hope that players will adopt to such micro changes, which in a larger optic.  Results as a large change.

 

Edited by LowSpeed_US
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1 minute ago, Yandere_Roon said:

I edited the comment to address this further up. Sorry always think of something more to say after I've posted. 

As far as this bit goes,  no worries. I do the exact same thing all the time.  Its a real hard habit to get rid off.  I will address that bit now. 

 

11 minutes ago, Yandere_Roon said:

if you'd have watched the video as well he DOES do correct attacks on them.

I did watch the video twice  now  and no he doesn't do correct attacks on them he attacks them from head on clearly not lining up the shots with the DDs.  He only attacks their broadside twice once doing massive damage the other time he cuts the video before the numbers pop up. 

 

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10 minutes ago, eviltane said:

As far as this bit goes,  no worries. I do the exact same thing all the time.  Its a real hard habit to get rid off.  I will address that bit now. 

 

I did watch the video twice  now  and no he doesn't do correct attacks on them he attacks them from head on clearly not lining up the shots with the DDs.  He only attacks their broadside twice once doing massive damage the other time he cuts the video before the numbers pop up. 

 

Hmm let me find the timestamp. 3 minutes 24 seconds is a time when he does a correct lineup attack. Still hits for 4k mind you but that was a on a bot training dummy who isn't doing any moves to avoid the rocket planes, just going straight. I THINK that's what he was doing by showing the unoptimal attack angles, to simulate a DD who is actively trying to dodge though he should have expressed that in the video itself, I can see why it does look rather dodgy since he doesn't mention that at all...I will concede the point there.

Still my point of it being a lip service change (and a buff for IJN and RN CVs) for everything but the GZ and Saipan holds true.

Edited by Yandere_Roon

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14 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

At this point, they should just remove the HE rocket planes and replace them with HE dive bombs. At least then the primary goal (damage against big targets) is preserved...while skilled captains could still try to go after DDs...but the DDs have a chance to ACTUALLY dodge...

Well that would leave IJN CVs in a tough spot against DDs?    KM CVs already may be?.   I have just played a couple of games in KM T4  to get the perma camo... I really don't want to do that que anymore....So many CVs there was nearly a 5 min wait both games.   I'll free XP through that mess for sure when they drop if I don't get the 6 from a crate.        But the torps on it are decent against T4 DDs?  Quite a few bots in one of those so hard to tell.. the other was almost all humans and most having tags to tell me they probably weren't new?    I really think the rocket plane gripe will be lessened by the spotting changes...  with the high skill set anyway.  I don't think they will nearly have the troubles with CV rockets they had before.  Of course the DD potato that was going to die in 3 mins prior will die in 2 mins now due to increased bloom time. He's not going to notice the change, and wonder why he is getting nuked so much quicker all the sudden.   

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2 minutes ago, iRA6E said:

Well that would leave IJN CVs in a tough spot against DDs?    KM CVs already may be?.   I have just played a couple of games in KM T4  to get the perma camo... I really don't want to do that que anymore....So many CVs there was nearly a 5 min wait both games.   I'll free XP through that mess for sure when they drop if I don't get the 6 from a crate.        But the torps on it are decent against T4 DDs?  Quite a few bots in one of those so hard to tell.. the other was almost all humans and most having tags to tell me they probably weren't new?    I really think the rocket plane gripe will be lessened by the spotting changes...  with the high skill set anyway.  I don't think they will nearly have the troubles with CV rockets they had before.  Of course the DD potato that was going to die in 3 mins prior will die in 2 mins now due to increased bloom time. He's not going to notice the change, and wonder why he is getting nuked so much quicker all the sudden.   

I think the main problem we're going to see is the huge upswing in Battleships and cruisers complaining about Rocket Planes next. Since the changes put together heavily incentivizes going after BBs and Cruisers with Tiny tims or Rocket planes (I mean the regular HVAR rockets have 32mm of pen and can chunk cruisers for 8k on a pass if you're lucky).

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Just get rid of rockets.

Have he bombers, ap bombers, and torpedo bombers.

Or give a controllable fighter wing so people can play anti cv in a cv, like the old air supremacy builds.

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4 minutes ago, Yandere_Roon said:

Hmm let me find the timestamp. 3 minutes 24 seconds is a time when he does a correct lineup attack. Still hits for 4k mind you but that was a on a bot training dummy who isn't doing any moves to avoid the rocket planes, just going straight. I THINK that's what he was doing by showing the unoptimal attack angles, to simulate a DD who is actively trying to dodge.

Yes that was one of the attacks that he hits from the right angle and he gets 4.4k + 2 incapacitations +2 fires for the hit.  I think that did rather well considering its the second highest damage roll on a DD in the entire video.   Altogether he shows 3 attacks with the live server.  They roll for   5.2k ,2.9k and 2.9k.       On the new system he rolls:  Whiff, 2.9k, 1.4k , whiff 4.4k 2.2k.  To be noted is the 1.4k dmg roll wich was an interesting case , approach the DD from behind at 60% or so degrees his cross hair is exactly on the tip of the broken engine dd  putting all the DD in the lower left hand side. If he had aimed a bit more central on the broken engine DD he would have landed almost all his load. 

Then the GZ attacks the baltimore for 7.4k  and 4.4k.        With the Saipan 2.9k , 3.5k , 3.5k  (only attack done on broadside).     

 

What I am saying is besides the whiffs due to attacking from the wrong angle his damage rolls on the life server were not all that much higher. 

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