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RonJamesDio

Is it time to look at German BB secondaries?

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With the advent of the new German CV line which iirc shares Mass secondary accuracy, the German BB's have fallen even further behind in the secondary race. They do have a high volume of fire, but generally poor accuracy for the sacrifice of so many skill points to make them really workable. At this point it seems more dangerous for a DD to get close to a German CV than to a Bismarck. 

Is it finally time to take a look at them and make some adjustments? What do you folks think? 

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Just now, RonJamesDio said:

Is it finally time to take a look at them and make some adjustments? What do you folks think? 

I think the secondary mechanics should be adjusted, giving the player more options for input (targeting bow, stern, superstructure, or selecting AP/HE) instead of just buffing accuracy etc.

The higher precision on Massa etc. is necessary as they can't pen anything relevant anymore without IFHE and even with it is not really worth your time. So they rely on fire, except against DDs. German secondaries on the other hand are actually doing damage to large ships, so they are more suited against big ships which is a nice way to differentiate between the two lines.

secondaries on CVs are only the last line of defense against rushing DDs, and no sane player would spec them for a CV so I think they are fine.

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4 minutes ago, shinytrashcan said:

I think the secondary mechanics should be adjusted, giving the player more options for input (targeting bow, stern, superstructure, or selecting AP/HE) instead of just buffing accuracy etc.

The higher precision on Massa etc. is necessary as they can't pen anything relevant anymore without IFHE and even with it is not really worth your time. So they rely on fire, except against DDs. German secondaries on the other hand are actually doing damage to large ships, so they are more suited against big ships which is a nice way to differentiate between the two lines.

secondaries on CVs are only the last line of defense against rushing DDs, and no sane player would spec them for a CV so I think they are fine.

So my GZ with some secondary perks on it makes me insane? I'll take it.

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6 minutes ago, INobleKnightI said:

So my GZ with some secondary perks on it makes me insane? I'll take it.

Is there a sane way to play GZ? You either try hard or you go with the memes ;-)

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Both 128mm and 150mm that many KMS BBs use got IFHE baked into them. 

Were they more accurate there would be issues.

Also GZ is king of secondaries, with the best secondary accuracy formula in the game. 

Get within 9.4km in a DD at your peril.

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German BB Secondaries are already fine.  They have stupidly high Penetration values better than their gun sizes should afford.

 

USN 127mm/38 HE, as found on NC, Mass, etc.:  21mm HE Pen

FR 100mm, as found on many High Tier FR BBs such as Alsace:  17mm HE Pen, not enough to Pen High Tier DD Hulls and BB Superstructure, which are 19mm.  To pen that, they'd have to get IFHE just to HE Pen Benson's f--king hull.  And by doing that it costs a drastic 4 points and slashes the Fire Chances, even for the Main Battery HE Shell Fire Chance.

 

German 128mm as found on Gneisenau, Siegfried, GK, Odin, Agir:  32mm HE Pen :Smile_smile:

German 105mm as found on Bismarck-class, FDG:  26mm HE Pen :Smile_smile:

 

Bismarck is comparable in performance to North Carolina.

NC 47.12% WR,  49,991 Dmg Avg

Bismarck 49.54% WR,  51,660 Dmg Avg

 

FDG does have identical performance to Iowa.

FDG 47.41% WR,  57,841 Dmg Avg

Iowa 46.42% WR,  58,118 Dmg Avg

 

GK and Montana are pulling similar numbers.

Montana 49.10% WR,  76,883 Dmg Avg

GK 50.23% WR,  75,513 Dmg Avg

These stats are from RU Server, 2nd Quarter 2020 stats, 3/28 thru 6/27.

Why RU Server?  Because they are by far the largest server and play way more battles than we do, and that's the server WG pays attention to.

 

And you guys want German BB buffs?  No way.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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38 minutes ago, RonJamesDio said:

With the advent of the new German CV line which iirc shares Mass secondary accuracy, the German BB's have fallen even further behind in the secondary race. They do have a high volume of fire, but generally poor accuracy for the sacrifice of so many skill points to make them really workable. At this point it seems more dangerous for a DD to get close to a German CV than to a Bismarck. 

Is it finally time to take a look at them and make some adjustments? What do you folks think? 

From today, 451 Secondary hits from the GK.  Accuracy doesn't seem to be a problem.

 

shot-20.07.13_15.03.01-0754.jpg

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I think we should focus on the fact that Iowa and Montana need more buffs than KMS BBs

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1 hour ago, RonJamesDio said:

With the advent of the new German CV line which iirc shares Mass secondary accuracy, the German BB's have fallen even further behind in the secondary race. They do have a high volume of fire, but generally poor accuracy for the sacrifice of so many skill points to make them really workable. At this point it seems more dangerous for a DD to get close to a German CV than to a Bismarck. 

Is it finally time to take a look at them and make some adjustments? What do you folks think? 

If they gave German BBs improved accuracy on their secondaries, they’d probably be a bit too much

depending on what gun we’re talking about, German secondaries have either 26, 32, or 38mm of pen, plenty for most targets, compared to Mass/Georgia/Ohio’s 21. Just imagine Zeppelin secondaries with more of them and reaching out to 11.6km. 

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or just, you know, nerf the secondaries on the CVs.

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German secondaries might not hit as often, but when they do hit, they actually do something.

 

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The Odin secondaries are great. Less hits overall than my Massachusetts but way more damage and fires. 

 

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I was just curious what people thought on the subject, given how generally sub par secondary builds seem to be on german BB's, and the pen issues on Mass and Georgia can be largely solved with the IFHE ( which seems to be utilized on a pretty regular basis if someone is speccing them for secondary builds) 

IFHE Mass and Georgia secondaries are brutally punishing versus any relatively low armoured ship.

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36 minutes ago, RonJamesDio said:

I was just curious what people thought on the subject, given how generally sub par secondary builds seem to be on german BB's, and the pen issues on Mass and Georgia can be largely solved with the IFHE ( which seems to be utilized on a pretty regular basis if someone is speccing them for secondary builds) 

IFHE Mass and Georgia secondaries are brutally punishing versus any relatively low armoured ship.

Until you get to T9, German battleships largely deal with firing angle issues more than anything.  This is the #1 limitation to their overall performance.  The Gneisenau has superb secondary firepower for a T7 battleship, but it's difficult to get all her secondaries to target.  Scharnhorst isn't quite as strong as the Gneisenau (still very strong though), but her secondaries require her to pretty much go full broadside to get all of them going.  Additionally, not only do you have an 8km range limit, but T7 battleship secondaries are not as accurate as T8/9/10 battleships are.  Most people don't know that, but it's true (28% vs 32% accuracy @ 8km).

The Bismarck's firing angles are so bad due to the 105mm turrets not firing over top of the 150mm mount below it.  If you watch your secondaries shooting, you'll actually see them stop turning and stop firing altogether if the 150mm mount is in the way.  Tirpitz is a bit better and doesn't have this bug, but her torpedoes do limit one of her 150mm mounts.  Odin doesn't have the greatest firing angles, but 128mm secondaries don't really care a lot.  They just shred everything.

The T9 FDG has really great secondary firing angles, but struggles in the standard meta when in full secondary mode due to her lack of main battery accuracy.  Ironically, the FDG is one of the most fantastic standard meta performers in a full survival build.  Just screw the secondaries and you'll see a whole different side to her.  The T10 GK is much more capable of performing in the standard meta as a full secondary build thanks to having 12 guns, as thus is a much more enjoyable ship to play.

American secondaries found on the Massachusetts, Georgia, Ohio, and yes, even Montana, have superb firing angles.  This is their greatest strength.  You can pretty much stay at 30 degrees to your target and the secondaries will be firing away.  Combine that with high DPM, excellent accuracy, and good mount survivability and it's no surprise they generally outperform everything else. 

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41 minutes ago, RonJamesDio said:

I was just curious what people thought on the subject, given how generally sub par secondary builds seem to be on german BB's, and the pen issues on Mass and Georgia can be largely solved with the IFHE ( which seems to be utilized on a pretty regular basis if someone is speccing them for secondary builds) 

IFHE Mass and Georgia secondaries are brutally punishing versus any relatively low armoured ship.

they dont need a buff to their secondary guns, what they need is a way to get close so they can use them... playing a brawler in WOW is a suicide, the moment you try to close the gap you will get incinerated, torped and focused so hard your whole health will go puff before even geting within secondary range 

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1 hour ago, RonJamesDio said:

I was just curious what people thought on the subject, given how generally sub par secondary builds seem to be on german BB's, and the pen issues on Mass and Georgia can be largely solved with the IFHE ( which seems to be utilized on a pretty regular basis if someone is speccing them for secondary builds) 

IFHE Mass and Georgia secondaries are brutally punishing versus any relatively low armoured ship.

That changed with the IFHE change.  I did a bunch of digging after it as I really like my secondary builds.  Most opinions are that after the IFHE change happened, IFHE isn't a part of those builds any longer.

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I think they should be looked at, even though I suspect it would mean nothing is done to them. When they were released they were novel and flavorful.

Now I feel like the Alsace is the most German BB in the game, and the Massachusetts is what you drive if you want your secondaries to do stuff.

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1 hour ago, Telastyn said:

I think they should be looked at, even though I suspect it would mean nothing is done to them. When they were released they were novel and flavorful.

Now I feel like the Alsace is the most German BB in the game, and the Massachusetts is what you drive if you want your secondaries to do stuff.

They were much touted as the " close range specialists" when they were introduced. Turtlebacks, good armour schemes and secondaries for days, but those flavors have largely been overshadowed by new lines coming out. Russian BB's are more survivable especially vs HE spam, Mass and Georgia being the secondary kings. 

The newest buffs to german dispersion have definitely helped, but I think their flavor as a whole has been watered down so much they have lost a lot of their potency.  If you want a tanky close range BB with huge health, great AA, good armour and powerful guns, you drive a Kremlin.

It just seems to me that they are falling ever further behind, but this is just my own opinion and observations.

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I proposed to WG during a Q&A about a secondary accuracy buff to German BBs.  I also proposed a way to buff (or rework) manual secondaries.   This question got an insane amount of likes on discord.  The community really liked this idea I had... BUT

 

WG responded to me saying, "First off, you make me happy that you play german BB secondary build, but the reason I have to say no is because we don't want secondary battery to become the main damage dealer"

 

smh

Edited by kishan99
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Meh, i know the winrates are pretty close but monty feels so much better than GK. I cringe when I see German BBs on my team. I consider them a net detriment. I enjoy their aesthetics but playing them for the current missions and such is painful. They just get farmed. Both monty and GK need some love, they feel like they are lagging behind with all the 457mm guns.  Just my opinion. I like my USA BBs, French BBs, and Russian *duhh* BBs. I Generally like BBs. I do not like the German BBs. They basically exist to be abused, and I admit, nothing gives me pleasure like seeing an enemy team of 3 GKs as the BBs. 

Edited by MBRicochet

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I think they should look at the unbuffed secondaries and adjust the geman range out to 17kms for T10, 14 kms for T9 and 11 kms for T8. No German bb below t8 should have less than a 10kms range unbuffed

 

Edited by Chain_shot

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I think it's more a lack of survive-ability. Namely armor. They just get curb stomped by plunging fire. Most of this meta is plunging fire. If they had 60mm deck armor they'd be fine I think. They are just big fat squishy targets trying to move to the front to use their secondaries. So they move up and get rained on by hellfire and die. I don't have any complaints with killing power of the Germans. I have issues with their ability to live long enough to enjoy their killing power. I basically feel like a suicide bomber, looking for my moment to make my death charge. The second you are spotted everyone knows they can beat the crap out of you, so they do. I mean, I target a GK over most other BBs because I know I will do damage. LOL. 

Kremlin has the armor and a fast Decon so they can push and the guns to smack bow tanking cruisers. Brits can hang back and spam HE. Monty has better pen angles and accuracy. French are french lol. 

As for secondaries I feel like they are excessively expensive for points. Not sure if they can rework it. 

Short, the biggest buff they can give German secondaries is giving the germans the ability to actually use them. Buff the deck armor, and adjust the damage saturation of the super structure so it saturates faster. 

Edited by MBRicochet

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