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Shadow_Wolf7

Minotaur Advice?

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So I've had the Minotaur for a while (it was my first T10) but have been playing the Smolensk instead basically since I bought that. Have been trying to go back and play the Minotaur as well recently just for some variety since I have been enjoying the Smolensk so much but have been struggling with the Minotaur. I just don't seem to do a lot of damage or have a meaningful contribution to the team in it. The things it comes down to for me is the range of the main battery, shell velocity, and arcs.

Obviously the Smolensk benefits from AFT since it has 130 mm batteries and therefore can get it's range to 16.6 km while still running the reload module while Minotaur has a 15.8 km range with the reload module. It's only a tiny bit more range but it seems to make a huge difference. For whatever reason I find that the positions/hard-cover I seem to gravitate toward in both of these ships leaves me firing at maximum range often since open water gun-boating in either of these earns you an instant deletion. Also the amount of radar at T8-10 will have you gravitating toward hard cover even if you have smoke. For that reason the extra range on the Smolensk paired with what feels like much better/higher arcs (although I have no data on arcs it's just what it feels like to me) seems to give me more/better options for positioning. Also the range allows you to better fire at targets moving away from you further out so I have no problem getting a lot of damage in a game (although granted: the Smolensk is probably overpowered).

I could drop the reload module and add the range module on the Minotaur but.... the shell velocity of the Minotaur is so low you have to give an absurd amount of lead on any ship far out (where you try to stay since you will get deleted if you are any closer) and by the time your shells arrive they miss if the target ship even slightly changes course/speed. Then by the time you realize your aiming was off: the target either goes undetected or has changed course/speed again. Thus making the guns only effective at closer ranges where the shells will arrive quicker, or at targets that stupidly maintain the same course and speed for a long time (which is few at T10).

I get that the Smolensk is considered (and is probably) overpowered. But what I expected was to play the Minotaur and still do well, but maybe not as well as I would firing HE in the Smolensk. But instead it feels like I can't do well at all.

I REALLY want to like the Minotaur both because I really enjoy the relatively similar Smolensk and also because I really enjoyed the tech tree ships leading up to the Minotaur like the Fiji, but these flaws seem to work out better on these lower tier ships where the range isn't as big of a deal and there is less radar. So I am making this post to ask how others are playing/enjoying the Minotaur in the hopes that maybe I'm playing it wrong or can enjoy it if I change my play-style/expectations for it. As of right now, I think I will instantly reset it when the research bureaus is unlocked for me and enjoy the lower tier ships again.

 

 

Edited by Shadow_Wolf7

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I play her with radar. Harder to do in random for sure, but you sneak around cap and flank until detected, pop radar and sink the dd. Once the dd are dealt with, either use cover to shoot undetected or play it like an oversized dd and use her torps. She is tricky, but offer a great bundle when you use the minimap and know hoe to angle agains other cruisers. 

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From my experience so far in using that line and playing against it. I do know you want to avoid targeting the heaviest of armored ships if they are bow to your shells. Like my Yamato class BB hulls can tank serious amounts of Minotaur shells seemingly all day long and they do little to no damage me, while if I make contact with the Mino with my counter attack shells they can do sever damage to it.

And with the proliferation of “Icebreaker” bow armor on Russians ships lately many of their CAs and BBs like enjoy the same advantages in tanking bow in on Mino AP shells.

Now what Mino is still scary good at is wearing down or at times obliterating everything else with very rapid fire shells. And even the ships I mentioned abouve that can manage some invulnerability to Min can still take a lot of damage if caught side on to Mino shells. And of course the Minotaur torpedoes are still potent as all torpedoes can be really.

Add in the fact a Minotaur’s AA guns still seem quite nice and you still have a decent ship if you know how to use it. 

Also worth nothing no while Minotaur can be situationally useful with radar, it’s not recommended going Radar Mino unless you are in Division with a good smoke DD or 2 that can give you smoke and allow you to surprise targets with radar. Otherwise you always want to carry your own smoke.

Hope this helps despite my limited use to date using Mino personally except in Space battles, but have been with players that have used it a lot and faced off against it enough times that I feel I understand the ship fairly well. And am currently on Fiji in my grind up that line.

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5 minutes ago, Y_Nagato said:

I play her with radar. Harder to do in random for sure, but you sneak around cap and flank until detected, pop radar and sink the dd. Once the dd are dealt with, either use cover to shoot undetected or play it like an oversized dd and use her torps. She is tricky, but offer a great bundle when you use the minimap and know hoe to angle agains other cruisers. 

I've wondered about that but I have Jack Dunkirk as the captain making it much better to play with smoke. I have a hard time surviving as it is with smoke since so many ships have radar and the Mino is practically made out of paper idk how I'd do without it. But can definitely try it in a couple battles. Thanks for the advice!

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17 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

From my experience so far in using that line and playing against it. I do know you want to avoid targeting the heaviest of armored ships if they are bow to your shells. Like my Yamato class BB hulls can tank serious amounts of Minotaur shells seemingly all day long and they do little to no damage me, while if I make contact with the Mino with my counter attack shells they can do sever damage to it.

And with the proliferation of “Icebreaker” bow armor on Russians ships lately many of their CAs and BBs like enjoy the same advantages in tanking bow in on Mino AP shells.

Now what Mino is still scary good at is wearing down or at times obliterating everything else with very rapid fire shells. And even the ships I mentioned abouve that can manage some invulnerability to Min can still take a lot of damage if caught side on to Mino shells. And of course the Minotaur torpedoes are still potent as all torpedoes can be really.

Add in the fact a Minotaur’s AA guns still seem quite nice and you still have a decent ship if you know how to use it. 

Also worth nothing no while Minotaur can be situationally useful with radar, it’s not recommended going Radar Mino unless you are in Division with a good smoke DD or 2 that can give you smoke and allow you to surprise targets with radar. Otherwise you always want to carry your own smoke.

Hope this helps despite my limited use to date using Mino personally except in Space battles, but have been with players that have used it a lot and faced off against it enough times that I feel I understand the ship fairly well. And am currently on Fiji in my grind up that line.

Thanks a lot! I noticed this too with AP at bow-on targets (one of the reasons I prefer the Smolensk where I can fire HE at everything). My best games come when I can surprise ships at closer ranges using my torpedoes as they come around a corner and/or AP on a flat broadside at closer ranges but I just can't seem to get into those situations consistently. The AA is definitely nicer on the Mino but with the state of AA in general it doesn't feel like a huge benefit at T10 (where regardless you are going to get hit). Enjoy the Fiji at T7 she's an AMAZING cruiser. Would definitely keep her in port if I where you. Even if you don't move any further up the line: she's worth it.

Edited by Shadow_Wolf7

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9 minutes ago, Shadow_Wolf7 said:

Thanks a lot. Noticed this too with AP at bow-on targets (one of the reasons I prefer the Smolensk where I can fire HE at everything). My best games come when I can surprise ships at closer ranges using my torpedoes as they come around a corner or AP on a flat broadside at closer ranges but I just can't seem to get into those situations consistently. The AA is definitely nicer on the Mino but with the state of AA in general it doesn't feel like a huge benefit at T10 (where regardless you are going to get hit). Enjoy the Fiji at T7 she's an AMAZING cruiser. Would definitely keep her in port if I where you. Even if you don't move any further up the line she's worth it.

Have you tried Hindenburg? Lacks smoke, but has good armor that often enough rivals become BBs, hard hitting short ranged torpedoes, and the guns are fast loading for how hard they hit. Plus you get AP and HE. Salem and Des Moines are good too.

And yes I am keeping Fiji, but considering if I should add any of the ships on that line to my port as well or not is all.

Edited by Admiral_Thrawn_1

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Just now, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Have you tried Hindenburg? Lacks smoke, but has good armor that often enough rivals become BBs, hard hitting short ranged torpedoes, and the guns are fast loading for how hard they hit. Plus you get AP and HE. Salem and Des Moines are good too.

 

Right now I'm slowly making my way up the Des Moines tree (have the T6) so I have another/different type of T10 cruiser. I'm also working my way up toward the Harugumo hoping that I can play it as a mini-Smolensk.

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3 minutes ago, Shadow_Wolf7 said:

Right now I'm slowly making my way up the Des Moines tree (have the T6) so I have another/different type of T10 cruiser. I'm also working my way up toward the Harugumo hoping that I can play it as a mini-Smolensk.

Both the Hindenburg and Des Moines lines can be tough in mid tiers until you get tier 8, then they get harder hitting and more armored to the point they can take some lighter hits in their bows. And by the time you get to tier 10 they can shrug off some surprisingly heavy hits, but once you hit 16 inch guns and up then the AP shells can breach your armor. And as always HE shells can still be a threat even if it’s just the threat of fires.

Also you will need to try the Zao line, that was one of the only Cruiser lines I have found that you enjoy every ship in the line, although Ibuki was a little questionable. It’s actually the cruiser line I recommend players new to cruisers work on first since it’s probably the most forgiving line as a whole for a player to grind through. And they get both good HE and AP shells, plus good stealth, reasonably good armor, ok AA guns, and good mobility. Gun range tends to be good too. And to top it all off their torpedo range tends to be longer ranged ranged and higher damage than their rivals.

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34 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

And with the proliferation of “Icebreaker” bow armor on Russians ships lately many of their CAs and BBs like enjoy the same advantages in tanking bow in on Mino AP shells.

The icebreaker do not change anything for Mino. His AP only have improved pen angle, not overmatching capacity. A Zao bow in will have the same effect overall than a Stalingrad for the Mino, that is tons of bounce. 
 

In such case you are better to no shoot, or aim for the superstructure. 

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Mino has been power creeped to death.  I still find it fun  to play, but you aren't going to carry many games in it.  Sitting in smoke and pew pewing can be fun, but you are going to get radared or torpedoed.  I find my best range is about 14K- 12K out.  Keeps the radar and torps off and you can  do some real harm to BBs.  BBs move slow and once you get them in your sites you can just pelt them.  Unless you are much closer, Cruisers and DDs can be tough to hit, unlike with your Smolensk.  Use your torpedoes for anybody who gets too close.  I have my range at 15.8 since I don't even bother to fire at more than 14K.  

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10 minutes ago, Captain_Rawhide said:

Mino has been power creeped to death.  I still find it fun  to play, but you aren't going to carry many games in it.  Sitting in smoke and pew pewing can be fun, but you are going to get radared or torpedoed.  I find my best range is about 14K- 12K out.  Keeps the radar and torps off and you can  do some real harm to BBs.  BBs move slow and once you get them in your sites you can just pelt them.  Unless you are much closer, Cruisers and DDs can be tough to hit, unlike with your Smolensk.  Use your torpedoes for anybody who gets too close.  I have my range at 15.8 since I don't even bother to fire at more than 14K.  

Yeah, I find I do the best at that range as well where the shell velocity and AP does the most work. I just have a hard time getting there if that makes sense. Feels like when I do, it it's too aggressive and I end up dying because I get spotted by a DD or something and all of a sudden 5 ships are firing on my and I'm dead within seconds. But if I hold back like I would in a Smolensk I can't do any damage. But maybe I'm just not doing it correctly and I'll have to learn how.

Edited by Shadow_Wolf7

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Ditch the smoke, run radar.

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8 minutes ago, Shadow_Wolf7 said:

Not sure what you mean?

its WG version of mino with he if you cant get smolly then ur not totally fuked get YOSHY haha ...its true though...because REASONS

Edited by JaysUsedBoatParts

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1 minute ago, JaysUsedBoatParts said:

its WG version of mino with he 

Yeah every game I have I just seem to think that no matter how well I did in the Mino, I could have done better in the Smolensk. Thus trying to find a way to still make the Mino enjoyable/work.

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1 minute ago, Shadow_Wolf7 said:

Yeah every game I have I just seem to think that no matter how well I did in the Mino, I could have done better in the Smolensk. Thus trying to find a way to still make the Mino enjoyable/work.

I know how u feel

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55 minutes ago, Shadow_Wolf7 said:

Yeah, I find I do the best at that range as well where the shell velocity and AP does the most work. I just have a hard time getting there if that makes sense. Feels like when I do, it it's too aggressive and I end up dying because I get spotted by a DD or something and all of a sudden 5 ships are firing on my and I'm dead within seconds. But if I hold back like I would in a Smolensk I can't do any damage. But maybe I'm just not doing it correctly and I'll have to learn how.

At the beginning of the game, use islands to get in close and protect you from torps and detection.  After some of the ships have been weeded out you have more options as to where to set up.

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36 minutes ago, Shadow_Wolf7 said:

Yeah every game I have I just seem to think that no matter how well I did in the Mino, I could have done better in the Smolensk. Thus trying to find a way to still make the Mino enjoyable/work.

The reason you may be struggling with mino may be because you are playing it too much like a Smolensk. 

Smolensk is a completely different beast than mino: it relies heavily on damage over time: playing it very safe and utilitizing its high fire setting potential, good shell velocity, and smokescreen to spam damage from range.

You will not do as well in mino if you play it like a Smol: As you said, Mino has less shell velocity / range, and it can't set fires. Instead, Mino is a high-risk high-reward kind of ship, with the concealment and smokescreen / fast cooldown to get closer and do significant amounts of damage to non bow in ships ~ 12 km away.

Together with its super heal, this means that you can pull off plays that you typically can't in a Smol and get away with it: all you have to do is not give broadside when you are spotted, position yourself well (not too aggressive but not too passive either), and be conscientious of what cruisers overmatch you (Henri, all the battlecruisers like Stalin and PR). 

Finally, I would say that minotaur, with its top-tier AP DPM, is more of a opportunistic, burst damage dealer than a traditional damage-over-time HE spammer in that most of your damage will come from concentrated fire, where you do massive amounts of damage in a short time frame.

Minotaur is a joy to play, but it definitely requires a different playstyle /tactics than your run-of-the-mill HE spammer.

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sorry but playing mino sucks balls,  guns splash everywhere with  every mod used still cant hit squat and im not bad at aiming

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Minotaur is a tech tree RNCL so that means AP only.  If you are the type of Cruiser player to be where the big blob of ships squaring off in front of each other, her damage output isn't going to be consistently decent enough.  In such straight up, head-to-head fights, everybody can angle / bow on against each other.  If all you have is AP as a Cruiser, opportunities to capitalize on that may be fleeting if your opponents aren't morons.  If you try to play her like Zao, Hindenburg, Moskva in front of enemy ships, your damage will suck.  Those normal Cruisers got HE, Minotaur's AP can get tanked and bounced.

 

I found out with her, as well as some of the later tiers of RNCLs, is that if you position off to the side somewhere, that's where Minotaur becomes a real problem for the reds.  To put it simply, be in a spot where the enemy ships have to make a hard choice:

- Angle to tank your fast AP spam or angle to tank your teammates.  Whichever choice they make, they will be vulnerable to the other.

 

A Minotaur that sneaked off to the side undetected and catches a push from the sides will rip HP quite fast off even a BB.  RNCL AP spam to the superstructure from the sides, even the 100k HP Battleships will quickly take notice and freak out.  I've done that to players with my own Neptune & Minotaur, I've had it done to me in my other ships.

 

The other place where Minotaur is in her element, but a riskier style of play, is cap support;  Help killing DDs.  Mino is very stealthy.  She can be somewhat close to the caps without getting detected.  With Stealth Build she's very sneaky at 9.05km.  I'm not saying to get into the cap or right at the border, that's too risky with torps flying around the caps.  Just be 1-2km outside, depending on what DDs they got (Gearings can have long range torps, careful now).  Whatever the DDs you're supporting find, hammer them with your RNCL AP.  RNCL AP rips apart Destroyers.  Do this and your DDs will love you.

+ Another way of complimenting this aggressive and dangerous playstyle is switching out Smoke in favor of Radar.  With 10km Radar and 9.05km concealment, she can Stealth Radar.  If a DD spots her, that's automatic Radar by the Mino player and the DD is in deep trouble.  The big CON to this style is how dangerous of a playstyle it is.  You will not have Smoke to bail you out of trouble and you won't have it to camp a spot and spam shells even in open water.  This is a rarely done build for Minotaur, but because it's rare, very few people expect it.  I've done Radar Mino a few times but it wasn't to my liking.  Very risky.  But Division buddies do this, I've seen others use that build also, and succeed.  It requires a leap of faith though, and skill to carry it out.  Done right it's a nasty surprise.  Done wrong and you're off to port real early.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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54 minutes ago, panamaz28 said:

sorry but playing mino sucks balls,  guns splash everywhere with  every mod used still cant hit squat and im not bad at aiming

No offense... but, uhmmm, can you post a replay of you playing mino?

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1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Minotaur is a tech tree RNCL so that means AP only.  If you are the type of Cruiser player to be where the big blob of ships squaring off in front of each other, her damage output isn't going to be consistently decent enough.  In such straight up, head-to-head fights, everybody can angle / bow on against each other.  If all you have is AP as a Cruiser, opportunities to capitalize on that may be fleeting if your opponents aren't morons.

 

I found out with her, as well as some of the later tiers of RNCLs, is that if you position off to the side somewhere, that's where Minotaur becomes a real problem for the reds.  To put it simply, be in a spot where the enemy ships have to make a hard choice:

- Angle to tank your fast AP spam or angle to tank your teammates.  Whichever choice they make, they will be vulnerable to the other.

 

A Minotaur that sneaked off to the side undetected and catches a push from the sides will rip HP quite fast off even a BB.  RNCL AP spam to the superstructure from the sides, even the 100k HP Battleships will quickly take notice and freak out.

 

The other place where Minotaur is in her element, but a riskier style of play, is cap support;  Help killing DDs.  Mino is very stealthy.  She can be somewhat close to the caps without getting detected.  With Stealth Build she's very sneaky at 9.05km.  I'm not saying to get into the cap or right at the border, that's too risky with torps flying around the caps.  Just be 1-2km outside, depending on what DDs they got (Gearings can have long range torps, careful now).  Whatever the DDs you're supporting find, hammer them with your RNCL AP.  RNCL AP rips apart Destroyers.  Do this and your DDs will love you.

+ Another way of complimenting this aggressive and dangerous playstyle is switching out Smoke in favor of Radar.  With 10km Radar and 9.05km concealment, she can Stealth Radar.  If a DD spots her, that's automatic Radar by the Mino player and the DD is in deep trouble.  The big CON to this style is how dangerous of a playstyle it is.  You will not have Smoke to bail you out of trouble and you won't have it to camp a spot and spam shells even in open water.  This is a rarely done build for Minotaur, but because it's rare, very few people expect it.

Thanks for the advice! I'll try it out. Been holding her back and firing at long range so I'll try being more aggressive on the flank or by helping my DD's.

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39 minutes ago, Shadow_Wolf7 said:

Thanks for the advice! I'll try it out. Been holding her back and firing at long range so I'll try being more aggressive on the flank or by helping my DD's.

Long range gunfire is just not what Neptune and Minotaur are good for.  I remember making the mistake and extending the gun range with Neptune via GFCS2 in Slot 6 with about 19km rang.  The shells are so floaty I swore I saw parachutes being deployed by my shells.  I tried spamming BBs from that far out with Neptune's shells that the BB was not even in the same map quadrant anymore by the time the shells arrived.  I did one game with GFCS2 in Neptune and after that one game I promptly took it right off.  I did not make that mistake with Minotaur.

 

RN CLs excel at short to mid range combat with their shells.  The closer you are the easier it is to hammer someone and pick out specific spots to get Penetration hits, especially against DDs.  But with Neptune and Minotaur, you have to be very careful in how close you can get, because you will get smashed quickly if you make a bad move.

You have to have a good balance of aggression and self-preservation.

Too aggressive and you get deleted.

Too passive and your damage output is going to be bad.

 

Make a mistake around a Montana or any of these high powered Tier X BBs at 14km and you won't live to make a second one.

Make a mistake and flash broadsides to some of these CAs and now Super Cruisers, that's fatal.  Zao for example is mostly known for her Hellfire HE shells, but her AP can and will put you down quickly if she catches your sides, and she's a sneaky Cruiser herself.

 

Minotaur was a roller coaster ride with seriously high peaks and valleys.

 

One last edit to dissuade long range combat with RNCLs is this Artillery Chart with all the tech tree VII-X RNCLs compared to X USN CA Des Moines.  DM's sell flight characteristics are typical with High Tier USN CA shells.  US Cruiser shells are what I like to call floaty at range, and RNCL AP shells are much worse in shell flight characteristics.

vcExoJY.jpg

 

There's also the other tactic I forgot to mention.  Island Camping.

Find an island that's close to the action, while still low enough that you can lob shells over it.  You can camp behind it and relentlessly spam shells.  Done right with good range and location, you can deny areas of the map.  Not even BBs want to hang around with your shells peppering them with your ROF.  But it gets tricky sometimes because at some situations there won't be a usable island in the area you want to fight in.

 

Also be very careful Island Camping as a Cruiser in a CV game, most especially against a CV with AP Bombs.  A CV catching you stationary behind an island will not go good for a Cruiser.  The arrival of German CVs with AP Rockets is more incentive to be careful on doing this in a CV game.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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