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Bortt

CV Planes Regen

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I know planes are not unlimited but has anyone tested how many they actually are able to regen?

Also wondering if anyone remembers the last time AA actually prevented a CV's first drop. I feel like I get detonated more than preventing the first drop of a CV. 

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4 minutes ago, Bortt said:

I know planes are not unlimited but has anyone tested how many they actually are able to regen?

Also wondering if anyone remembers the last time AA actually prevented a CV's first drop. I feel like I get detonated more than preventing the first drop of a CV. 

1: Sorry, never tried that.

2: If AA always stopped the first drop, it'd make CVs unfun to play for those who do play them. It'd just be a reversal of roles and nothing would end up being improved.

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1 minute ago, Bortt said:

I know planes are not unlimited but has anyone tested how many they actually are able to regen?

Also wondering if anyone remembers the last time AA actually prevented a CV's first drop. I feel like I get detonated more than preventing the first drop of a CV. 

It greatly depends.  Enterprise for example has excellent aircraft regen while Kaga has nice reserves but sh*t regen.  Saipan, if she screws up, may as well take herself out of the game.  It's not uniform.

 

If you want, hit the Fitting Tool link in my sig and you can look up those different regen values.

 

Also another thing to consider is that some CV players may be patient in how much of their aircraft they expend, and aren't in a hurry to lose planes at the start.  Real cautious in who and where they attack.  It's late game where they really get aggressive.  I know CV players did this in the RTS days when they had finite aircraft.  Wouldn't surprise me if this is true today out there in Randoms.

For example, at the start of the game, everybody's grouped up, so the CV player isn't going balls to the wall attack mode and is more looking for stupid isolated players to pick on.  They're holding back on their strike aircraft losses.  But later as the game progresses and people start to scatter, that's when they go aggressive and may be more willing to take losses.

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5 minutes ago, Bortt said:

Also wondering if anyone remembers the last time AA actually prevented a CV's first drop.

Its not supposed to. 


THOUGH my Halland has stopped first strikes going through 2 times. By sheer rng of flak and the CV trying to hide in the black clouds.  It felt very good. 

 

6 minutes ago, Bortt said:

has anyone tested how many they actually are able to regen?

Yes there are people here on the forums that can tell you in detail. 

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4 minutes ago, 1Sherman said:

1: Sorry, never tried that.

2: If AA always stopped the first drop, it'd make CVs unfun to play for those who do play them. It'd just be a reversal of roles and nothing would end up being improved.

 

2.  Funny.  CV play is unfun for everyone else.

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11 minutes ago, 1Sherman said:

1: Sorry, never tried that.

2: If AA always stopped the first drop, it'd make CVs unfun to play for those who do play them. It'd just be a reversal of roles and nothing would end up being improved.

I agree with you on that.

But it’s not about ALWAYS stopping the first drop. it almost NEVER happens and if it does it’s usually a complete fluke. Like getting detonated.

I just remember having an AA build ship actually assist in your survival against planes. Now most cv’s just do their first drop and press F after anyways unless you’re a garbage AA ship  

just wondering if I’m actually doing anything meaningful in my survivability against CV’s.

Is anything I do actually reducing the CV’s ability to attack me in the future.

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It is possible to stop a CV's first drop when you are in a division.  But it would take at least two ships and co-ordination, gameplay knowledge regarding AA, and some decent AA boats.  Even then, you need to pick and choose which planes are priority.  You want to take out the Hak's AP bombers as a CA instead of the rocket or torp planes.

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It depends on the CV players skill if hes good he can Dodge most your flak and always get one strike

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44 minutes ago, Bortt said:

I know planes are not unlimited but has anyone tested how many they actually are able to regen?

LittleWhiteMouse has put the max capacity list together before. (Picture from one of her CV reviews)

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Keep in mind that it doesn't take into account the first 5-10 minutes of a match where, if you're smart, your returning planes will put you back at the cap again, which stops the regen. In order to get that fully into effect you'd have to start with zero planes in ALL squadrons. The actual regen rate of planes varies per ship. The Kaga, for example, has a massive hanger capacity but much lower plane regen. The Enterprise has the best plane regen AND a decent sized hanger capacity, which is what makes her considered OP because it is very hard to reduce her to having to fly 'short squadrons' if they screw up (a short squadron is where there a planes missing from the strike, so launching with 6 instead of 9 for example).

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1 hour ago, Bortt said:

Also wondering if anyone remembers the last time AA actually prevented a CV's first drop.

Never, it's designed NOT to stop the first drop.

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10 minutes ago, Umikami said:

Never, it's designed NOT to stop the first drop.

Am I the only one that think's this is broken?

Considering a lot of halfway decent drops can do 10-15k or more.

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1 hour ago, Bortt said:

Also wondering if anyone remembers the last time AA actually prevented a CV's first drop. 

Pre-CV Rework Atlanta.......and I believe Texas could when set up right.

Edited by Lord_Slayer

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1 hour ago, Bortt said:

I know planes are not unlimited but has anyone tested how many they actually are able to regen?

Also wondering if anyone remembers the last time AA actually prevented a CV's first drop. I feel like I get detonated more than preventing the first drop of a CV. 

You can figure out how many planes the CV has by dividing 20 minutes by the regeneration time for each plane, and adding that to the number of planes it starts with. In a real match the number of planes will be two or three less than that because you can't start all three planes regenerating immediately.

 

It takes three Worcesters in the same grid square to prevent the first drop from a tier 10 CV.

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1 hour ago, Bortt said:

Am I the only one that think's this is broken?

Considering a lot of halfway decent drops can do 10-15k or more.

Can you completely stop the incoming salvo from a BB or the wall of torps from the invisible DD?  Sure you can try to angle in to avoid some of it but, let's face it, you can't avoid all the damage with "skill" or by pressing a button.  That's what allows us to sink each other.

CV's aren't any different than any other class of ship in the game, in that you don't have a magic shield ability that protects you from damage, no matter what type ship it comes from.

If you had a skill or button that said "NO" to incoming CV damage, balance would require that you have that same button against all other ship types.

Sometimes that's what these AA doesn't work arguments come down to.  That "but the CV still damaged me".   The response has to be "yes, it did", because saying no at will, with 100% effectiveness, would be unbalanced if applied to any other situation.

 

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2 hours ago, SilverPhatShips said:

It depends on the CV players skill if hes good he can Dodge most your flak and always get one strike

What people may not realize that if there's 9 planes in the group, and 3 in the first attacking group, The first six planes lost to the constant DPS  (i.e. not flak) will be the 'other' 6 planes in the group.  Unless the CV attack group eats flak, which can damage all the planes at once, then the constant DPS eats the 'extra' planes first.  So, unless the first attack group runs into flak, or a very high DPS AA ship that can kill those other 6 planes *AND* eat into the attacking group, the first attack will get to drop.  However, if, in the process, 3 planes are lost, there goes the 3rd attack, *and* if you have decent AA DPS, the buffer to drive the 2nd attack home is gone as well, and the attacking planes will start taking damage immediately, because there's no 'extra' planes to soak the damage.  Also, those planes lost have to be accounted for in regeneration by the carrier.

That's how a target can kill several planes and still get hit by the first attack.  You killed the 2nd and 3rd attacks, though.  No one gets immunity from the first attack, unless they have enough AA DPS to kill the entire group, not just the attacking group, before it drops.

EDIT: As I said in another reply: If you kill enough planes to stop the first attack, then you have killed not one, but three attack groups, usually.  You have won that battle, whether you realize it or not.

 

Edited by Kirov_Six

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2 hours ago, Bortt said:

I know planes are not unlimited but has anyone tested how many they actually are able to regen?

Also wondering if anyone remembers the last time AA actually prevented a CV's first drop. I feel like I get detonated more than preventing the first drop of a CV. 

The math is set up so the first attack is likely to work.  However, if you kill some planes on that first attack, you just killed the 3rd attack, and probably the planes that make the 2nd attack survivable.  i.e. you can kill two attacks' worth of planes and make the carrier regenerate them, and still eat the first attack.

It does make it seem that you're not getting anything from the AA, but, it is working more than you realize.  When a CV attack group eats enough flak, or into enough overlapping AA DPS to kill the whole group, and make even 1 attack impossible, you have really won the day. You annihilated three attacks, not just one.

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19 minutes ago, Burnsy said:

Can you completely stop the incoming salvo from a BB or the wall of torps from the invisible DD?  Sure you can try to angle in to avoid some of it but, let's face it, you can't avoid all the damage with "skill" or by pressing a button.  That's what allows us to sink each other.

CV's aren't any different than any other class of ship in the game, in that you don't have a magic shield ability that protects you from damage, no matter what type ship it comes from.

If you had a skill or button that said "NO" to incoming CV damage, balance would require that you have that same button against all other ship types.

Sometimes that's what these AA doesn't work arguments come down to.  That "but the CV still damaged me".   The response has to be "yes, it did", because saying no at will, with 100% effectiveness, would be unbalanced if applied to any other situation.

 

You can do things on purpose to mitigate BB salvo and "invisible DD" torpedo damage. You don't have to rely on flak RNG or the CV player being clueless.

 

You just have to sit there and take it in the face regardless if you're sitting literally next to and/or in between a few AA ships.

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20 minutes ago, Vekta408 said:

You can do things on purpose to mitigate BB salvo and "invisible DD" torpedo damage. You don't have to rely on flak RNG or the CV player being clueless.

 

You just have to sit there and take it in the face regardless if you're sitting literally next to and/or in between a few AA ships.

You can't avoid all damage from any ship type by "doing things".  You can reduce, no doubt, but if you could avoid it, games with no CV would last forever and no-one would ever be sunk.

You can do things against CVs, there is counter play.  I do more damage on a broadside with torps and rockets.  I do more damage bow to stern with dive bombers.  No-one bothers even trying to wiggle though.  Sometimes some of them try to turn into the torps which does save them from some of the torps but most don't even bother moving the rudder and just sail right into them.

I will tell you that DFAA hurts.  I can tell the second they press that button and my response is run because I am about to lose a lot of planes.  I can still get damage through if I want, but it's going to cost me if I choose that.

I can tell the difference between a ship that is specced for AA and one that isn't and I choose my targets accordingly after figuring out which is what.

I can also tell you though that very few actually bother speccing for AA, then complain that they run into CVs all the time and their AA is weak.  Well.....yes.  They don't actually want to sacrifice anything to make it better.  Just like choosing smoke over radar or hydro over DFAA, choices have to be made, but no-one wants to choose to have good AA. They just want it to be magic and it can't be that.

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4 hours ago, Bortt said:

Am I the only one that think's this is broken?

EVERYBODY thinks this is broken; EXCEPT WG, who wants to sell lots of premium CVs.

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2 hours ago, Burnsy said:

Can you completely stop the incoming salvo from a BB or the wall of torps from the invisible DD

Well you have islands and concealment to mitigate against BB’s. You can have DD’s spot torps or hydro.

In both of these situations. Yes, there’s a way for you to take zero dmg.
 

A 10-15k strike is a really good strike from any ship. I understand cv’s should be able to impact the game. They should be able to deal dmg. However it just feels like AA is useless.

Yes you shoot down planes but it doesn’t stop the CV from dropping you. No the planes are not unlimited. But what does it take for a CV to loose enough planes that they cannot effectively drop a ship? Especially one with strong AA.

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3 hours ago, Burnsy said:

Can you completely stop the incoming salvo from a BB or the wall of torps from the invisible DD?

You actually can, by blocking their firing lines with an island or staying outside of detection range. You can't do damage from that position, but you have a 100% effective way to avoid damage so you can manage your exposure.

 

That doesn't exist against CVs, you are always exposed to CV damage. The only 100% effective way to avoid CV damage is to blob so many ships around you that your team simply loses the game, and even in that scenario the CV can strike the ships on the edges of the blob.

Edited by WernerHerzdog
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5 hours ago, SilverPhatShips said:

It depends on the CV players skill if hes good he can Dodge most your flak and always get one strike

+1, I was going to make this point as well. It's still pretty rare from my experience, but I have seen CV players take an entire flight through one of my flak "walls" on a strong AA ship and basically watched the entire flight explode. It was rather gratifying to watch, but you have to be pretty oblivious to flak and it's effects to fly right through it without once changing direction and/or speed. Even I'm not that bad in CVs.

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4 hours ago, Burnsy said:

You can't avoid all damage from any ship type by "doing things".  You can reduce, no doubt, but if you could avoid it, games with no CV would last forever and no-one would ever be sunk.

You can do things against CVs, there is counter play.  I do more damage on a broadside with torps and rockets.  I do more damage bow to stern with dive bombers.  No-one bothers even trying to wiggle though.  Sometimes some of them try to turn into the torps which does save them from some of the torps but most don't even bother moving the rudder and just sail right into them.

I will tell you that DFAA hurts.  I can tell the second they press that button and my response is run because I am about to lose a lot of planes.  I can still get damage through if I want, but it's going to cost me if I choose that.

I can tell the difference between a ship that is specced for AA and one that isn't and I choose my targets accordingly after figuring out which is what.

I can also tell you though that very few actually bother speccing for AA, then complain that they run into CVs all the time and their AA is weak.  Well.....yes.  They don't actually want to sacrifice anything to make it better.  Just like choosing smoke over radar or hydro over DFAA, choices have to be made, but no-one wants to choose to have good AA. They just want it to be magic and it can't be that.

 

1 hour ago, Bortt said:

Well you have islands and concealment to mitigate against BB’s. You can have DD’s spot torps or hydro.

In both of these situations. Yes, there’s a way for you to take zero dmg.
 

A 10-15k strike is a really good strike from any ship. I understand cv’s should be able to impact the game. They should be able to deal dmg. However it just feels like AA is useless.

Yes you shoot down planes but it doesn’t stop the CV from dropping you. No the planes are not unlimited. But what does it take for a CV to loose enough planes that they cannot effectively drop a ship? Especially one with strong AA.

Every wonder why DFaa is a dead consumable?  Because you can get DFaa expert in a non AA spec Iron duke and get dumped on in a full AA spec texas repeatedly. You can repeat this same RNG nonsense all the way up to tier 10. IF you have to depend on RNG and CV players eating your flak then yes AA is useless and it's a waste of time to spec for it. The so called "AA ships" in game can't even defend themselves with their continuous damage let a lone provide "AA support". :Smile_veryhappy:

Edited by Vekta408

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7 hours ago, Bortt said:

I know planes are not unlimited but has anyone tested how many they actually are able to regen?

Also wondering if anyone remembers the last time AA actually prevented a CV's first drop. I feel like I get detonated more than preventing the first drop of a CV. 

I believe that @LittleWhiteMouse put together some regen tables.  Basically it boiled down to, barring perfectly balanced losses to maximize regen, that CVs total available planes (not counting the disposable fighters they summon) is about the historical total hangar capacities of the CVs.

I had a match where my Izumo stopped an Enterprise's attacks repeatedly.  Shot down 43 of his planes before he gave up.  The problem is that if AA stopped the first attack, the way CVs play, it means it probably wiped out the entire squadron and there won't be a second attack at all, so if it happens too often it is essentially immunity to CVs.

7 hours ago, madgiecool said:

2.  Funny.  CV play is unfun for everyone else.

I don't mind it that much.  Isn't fun when one singles me out and comes relentlessly, but that is generally true of all ship types.  Stalked by a DD all match isn't fun, nor is fighting in the HE rain for long periods.  I doubt most cruiser players find surprise trips back to port courtesy of a BB much fun either.

Edited by Helstrem

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