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Herr_Reitz

There may be a problem - AAA (AA)

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I've been playing the dogs out of Kaga for the past few weeks. Trying to get better. I have a good number of matches in her (148), 1502AD and avg DR of 2.0. 

Average, maybe slightly below.  Damaged caused to reds at 8.1M. So so.

But I can tell this morning, just starting today, the AAA(AA) is freaking insane. My average damage to ships is 54,777. 

In a Tier X (ix and x with a bismarck, nc and myself as the lone t8's) I earned a whopping 28K damage to ships. 

The Halland when built is exceedingly OP in the AA business. Exceedingly. Rockets and dive bombers? Forget them, vaporized. Torp bombers can approach for one drop, that's it. In contrast to normal Kaga business, I found I was losing planes during the TB run. 

Everywhere I went to attack my planes were obliterated. 

So... 

May I suggest you dive into your spreadsheet data to see just how OP the AA is on ships like Halland? They are almost untouchable by air. One would think attack planes, which can travel faster, would at least be able to reach the ship. Nope. 

Alternatively, I'm suggesting (again) you revise carrier tiers to play from the top down, so that T8 will see 8/7, T6 sees 6/5 and T4 sees 4/3. Cause T10 carriers are outrageously expensive to play (I have all of them) but hey, they are always top tier, right? 

Maybe just some buffs to Kaga's planes, otherwise? 

It's going to be very interesting to see how the German carriers play this game with AAA(AA) against ships like the Halland. tia

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Just let me understand, you say that a tier 8 CV against one of the best (if not the best) AA DD in-game is having problems?

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Thanks OP, I needed a good laugh to get my day started. 

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Kaga struggles in tier X matches.  She has oodles of planes but they are basically tier VII planes so you are getting triple up tiered.

Best you can do is spot for the team and nibble around the edges until your team improves the odds a bit.  If they don't then  you can only resign yourself to a low damage game.

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7 minutes ago, Herr_Reitz said:

I've been playing the dogs out of Kaga for the past few weeks. Trying to get better. I have a good number of matches in her (148), 1502AD and avg DR of 2.0. 

Average, maybe slightly below.  Damaged caused to reds at 8.1M. So so.

But I can tell this morning, just starting today, the AAA(AA) is freaking insane. My average damage to ships is 54,777. 

In a Tier X (ix and x with a bismarck, nc and myself as the lone t8's) I earned a whopping 28K damage to ships. 

The Halland when built is exceedingly OP in the AA business. Exceedingly. Rockets and dive bombers? Forget them, vaporized. Torp bombers can approach for one drop, that's it. In contrast to normal Kaga business, I found I was losing planes during the TB run. 

Everywhere I went to attack my planes were obliterated. 

So... 

May I suggest you dive into your spreadsheet data to see just how OP the AA is on ships like Halland? They are almost untouchable by air. One would think attack planes, which can travel faster, would at least be able to reach the ship. Nope. 

Alternatively, I'm suggesting (again) you revise carrier tiers to play from the top down, so that T8 will see 8/7, T6 sees 6/5 and T4 sees 4/3. Cause T10 carriers are outrageously expensive to play (I have all of them) but hey, they are always top tier, right? 

Maybe just some buffs to Kaga's planes, otherwise? 

It's going to be very interesting to see how the German carriers play this game with AAA(AA) against ships like the Halland. tia

I have read that there is a method by which most of the flak can be evaded, making even Halland's AA largely irrelevant. 

So there are those who have your experience, and those who see their own supposedly strong AA turning out to be useless when facing players who have mastered that method. 

The problem isn't that AA is too strong or too weak overall, it's that it's too variable and simply broken. 

 

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Are you saying a t8 CV with the weakest planes (but unlimited) has trouble with the strongest AA DD?  ....and you think that is a problem?

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I can already see where this thread is going to go. I don’t think popcorn is even worth it lol.

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I think I'm going to have to go through with making some detailed charts and tables about the actual numbers AA puts out on a per ship basis.  The in-port UI is of little help.  Is there a particular tier you would like to see, @Herr_Reitz?  I'll do all of the ships (yes, all of them) for that given tier.

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3 minutes ago, Usedcarjock said:

I can already see where this thread is going to go. I don’t think popcorn is even worth it lol.

Sadly.   I wish people would stop and look at what's wrong with the AA mechanics, and how those problems can create the divergent impressions people have. 

Instead, they cling to their impressions and tribe-think, and post juvenile comments back and forth at each other insisting that their little part of the elephant is the only thing that's real and right.  

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1 minute ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

I think I'm going to have to go through with making some detailed charts and tables about the actual numbers AA puts out on a per ship basis.  The in-port UI is of little help.  Is there a particular tier you would like to see, @Herr_Reitz?  I'll do all of the ships (yes, all of them) for that given tier.

Well @LittleWhiteMouse I perceive the issue more on a ship type, as in DDs. Cruisers, battleships, those I pretty much have a means of reaching. My thought, maybe T8 - T10 destroyers? 

What do you think would be best, though, as you'll be pulling it all together? 

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Well this thread is a full-reverse to all the other CV threads you usually read.

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1 minute ago, KilljoyCutter said:

Sadly.   I wish people would stop and look at what's wrong with the AA mechanics, and how those problems can create the divergent impressions people have. 

Instead, they cling to their impressions and tribe-think, and post juvenile comments back and forth at each other insisting that their little part of the elephant is the only thing that's real and right.  

There is problems with AA on both sides of the playing field certainly. The worst thing one can do is whine about how their class suffers and how the devs need to fix it. Another game already caters to this kind of person and particular nation which finally forced me to up and uninstall it.

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Kaga is the one with tier7 planes, right?

That is going to be tough in tier 10 matches.

Are you boost juking to move the flak spawns when you enter flak zones?

Are you varying your turn rates to move the flak zones when maneuvering under fire?

Against tier 10, even the DPS AA can be dangerous. Try using islands to block it on approach.

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1 minute ago, Herr_Reitz said:

Well @LittleWhiteMouse I perceive the issue more on a ship type, as in DDs. Cruisers, battleships, those I pretty much have a means of reaching. My thought, maybe T8 - T10 destroyers? 

What do you think would be best, though, as you'll be pulling it all together? 

One of the big issues is that there is a (very) marked difference between 100 AA DPS from a battleship versus 100 AA DPS from a destroyer -- the destroyer's AA is more potent (specifically it deals 33% more damage than the battleship).  So I was going to put together a comprehensive list going from best to worst, showing all of the AA potency across ship types.  This is a lot of work (though it's not hard work per se, it just takes a lot of time).  But I think it would help illustrate what "good" AA power actually is and which ships have it.

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As to those who see an issue with the original post, yup, I know Kaga's planes are weak. But I also know (from experience) some dds I can reach with rockets or dive bombers. The Halland is an exception. She can even take out torpedo bombers on the run-in to drop. 

If what we are striving for here is balance, then simply put, the Halland is OP, as it "appears" to exceed other ships of her type by a good margin.

Will be interesting to see LWM tables, as I could be totally off-base. Observations, we know, can't be trusted for making decisions to monkey with game mechanics. 

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1 minute ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

This is a lot of work (though it's not hard work per se, it just takes a lot of time).  But I think it would help illustrate what "good" AA power actually is and which ships have it.

I would agree totally with you - in fact... 

1 minute ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

the destroyer's AA is more potent (specifically it deals 33% more damage than the battleship)

I was, until I read this, totally ignorant of this fact. I'm looking forward to this data! 

Thanks immensely :cap_like:

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3 minutes ago, Herr_Reitz said:

 

Will be interesting to see LWM tables, as I could be totally off-base. Observations, we know, can't be trusted for making decisions to monkey with game mechanics. 

Observations are a great way of giving us an idea at what to look for.  It makes us ask questions.  Finding out why something feels off can lead to fun discoveries.  With the coming German premium carrier, I think I'm going to do this for tier VI (it will help with Clan Battles too), just to have a stonking huge chunk of data available.

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5 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Kaga is the one with tier7 planes, right?

That is going to be tough in tier 10 matches.

Are you boost juking to move the flak spawns when you enter flak zones?

Are you varying your turn rates to move the flak zones when maneuvering under fire?

Against tier 10, even the DPS AA can be dangerous. Try using islands to block it on approach.

I do believe they are T6 planes? Its always been a tough match at T10 but you get a lot more than you would imagine. 

I'm doing the things you asked. 

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6 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Observations are a great way of giving us an idea at what to look for.  It makes us ask questions.  Finding out why something feels off can lead to fun discoveries.  With the coming German premium carrier, I think I'm going to do this for tier VI (it will help with Clan Battles too), just to have a stonking huge chunk of data available.

Sounds great - and the German carriers are more than a good reason. From what I've seen, their planes are "weaker" against AAA(AA) than other carriers? If so, should make for some very interesting data. 

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Kaga's planes are made of paper, its personally why I have never bothered to purchase it.

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Just now, Zenn3k said:

Kaga's planes are made of paper, its personally why I have never bothered to purchase it.

True... but with concealment options you get her TB down to something like 6.1km concealment. The torps have a 5km range, so you can potentially, nearly stealth drop torps. Her attack/dive planes are weaker in comparison. 

I was only suggesting my experience, over those battles is suddenly much worse, particularly with one ship type. 

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17 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

One of the big issues is that there is a (very) marked difference between 100 AA DPS from a battleship versus 100 AA DPS from a destroyer -- the destroyer's AA is more potent (specifically it deals 33% more damage than the battleship).  So I was going to put together a comprehensive list going from best to worst, showing all of the AA potency across ship types.  This is a lot of work (though it's not hard work per se, it just takes a lot of time).  But I think it would help illustrate what "good" AA power actually is and which ships have it.

Investigating on the actual numbers of the AA strength of each ship would be a great way to actually determine if the current implementation of AA is effective or not. This way, AA balance suggestions would have more meat in them because there is numbers to back them up.

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2 minutes ago, Herr_Reitz said:

True... but with concealment options you get her TB down to something like 6.1km concealment. The torps have a 5km range, so you can potentially, nearly stealth drop torps. Her attack/dive planes are weaker in comparison. 

I was only suggesting my experience, over those battles is suddenly much worse, particularly with one ship type. 

Why you'd wanna attempt to "stealth" drop is beyond me, you wanna drop torps as close as possible to secure hits, if you drop from 5 KM away, they will most certainly turn into you and likely dodge the entire attack.    Concealment on CVs is rather pointless IMO, you are better off taking nearly anything else.

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21 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

One of the big issues is that there is a (very) marked difference between 100 AA DPS from a battleship versus 100 AA DPS from a destroyer -- the destroyer's AA is more potent (specifically it deals 33% more damage than the battleship).  So I was going to put together a comprehensive list going from best to worst, showing all of the AA potency across ship types.  This is a lot of work (though it's not hard work per se, it just takes a lot of time).  But I think it would help illustrate what "good" AA power actually is and which ships have it.

Ohhh @LittleWhiteMouseyou know how to get to a man's heart

Joke aside, let us know if we can help out

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2 minutes ago, barbaroja_Ar said:

Joke aside, let us know if we can help out

I'll have chores for you all later.

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