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Shxhyxn_Rocks

Which should i grind for - Des Moines or Worcester??

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Both are good ships imo. But I would agree DM. Worcester feels a little more situational to be effective and doesn’t have the blap power that dm has

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I have both: I am absolutely, positively convinced that the Des Moines is the better ship...by far.  No contest.

For Clan Battles in particular, the Worcester is map dependent, is not versatile, can't handle being pushed, and is only good for DD hunting.

The Worcester is now a snowflake ship for me, while the Des Moines is fun on any map and any game mode.

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If you plan on doing CB with it, DM hands down.  If you want one of the OG fire breathing dragons for randoms, the Worcester.

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Depends what you have already (starting point in the lines) as both are decent ships. Both lines have a speed bump at Tier 9.

However, I see more DMs in most modes so it is at least more popular and the more universally useful.

I have the DM but stopped at Cleveland.

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The things that Worcester & Des Moines do, fail to do compared to the other.

 

Worcester

+ Fast firing 152mm guns.  Lots of people over the years have complained about Worcester HE spam.  Give them reason to complain some more.

+ Fantastic stealth, if sh*t is going bad, Worcester can "Go Dark" and break contact.  Stealth Build Worcester goes down to 9.76km surface detection.  DM is okay at 10.89km.

+ Good maneuverability.

+ Less pronounced Citadel than Des Moines.

- Long ago Worcester & Seattle Radar got nerfed hard.  She used to have the same Radar as Des Moines / Radar Mino, but now she essentially has Tier VIII Cleveland 9km radar range while DM has 10km.  IMO, this hurt Worcester really, really bad as a Radar Cruiser.

- Lots of armor that gets Overmatched by 380mm.

- Normal HE slinging CLs demand lots of points, i.e. IFHE, which you'll need or you're going to non-pen lots of target zones.  You can't be solely focused on BB superstructure for HE Pens because that quickly gets damage saturated.  Her 152mm HE has 30mm HE Pen by default, which isn't enough against 32mm BB extremities and the deck armor of RN & FR BBs in High Tier.  IFHE improves the HE Pen to 37mm, but it hurts your Fire Chances.

 

Des Moines

+ 203mm CA guns but CL reload with 5.5 seconds base reload.  This is a very big selling point for the ship as it opens up lots of things.  She can present only her forward 2 turrets, but those 6 guns will quickly reload while taking a very conservative, limited profile for the target to hit.  This becomes great when you get into those 1-on-1 situations against another Cruiser.  You can HE spam them while they are sharply angled or bow on, and when your HE DPM is taking their toll on them, they're tempted to show more sides to fire more guns at you.  You can anticipate that and have AP flying at them for fat damage.  They realize their mistake and try to go sharper angle or bow on again.  You already saw that coming, and had already switched back to HE.  You will even smoke check those Super Cruisers when you're bow on to them.  They can't Overmatch DM's 27mm bow, their DPM sucks.  DM can tank Super Cruisers and burn them down with fast firing 203mm shells.

+ IMO, one of the best most all-around Radar Cruisers in the game.  Good reach with 10km Radar with long lasting active timer.  RU 12km Radar has a far reach but the active timer sucks.  You need the long active timer because it will take your teammates time to change their targeting to what you spotted with your Radar.  They may also need to reload.  With a long lasting Radar, your teammates got time to contribute and hammer the target.  9km Radar in Tier X isn't enough, and that's what Worcester has.

+ 27mm bow.  DM can face tank 381mm or smaller AP.  Basically if you can get into a 1-on-1 with DM against 381mm or smaller armed BBs, you basically won.  You can tank their AP and you'll DPM them down.  I've beaten 2 Bismarcks at the same time with DM alone.  They thought they had me, 2 BBs vs 1 CA?  Sorry, it was the other way around.  Their secondaries and 380mm guns couldn't do much to me while I butchered one.  As one of the Bismarcks was getting diced the other decided to try and run away.  But as the first was now dead, I just chased the 2nd one and DPM'd it down.

+ The HE is solid, not the best, but it's made even better because of the rate of fire.  But the special shells that USN CAs get mean that they got improved bounce angles.  Angles ships take to bounce shells may not do as well against USN CA AP.

+ CAs with their larger guns are typically not enamored with IFHE.  DM's 203mm HE has 34mm HE Pen, which breaks the critical 32mm armor threshold, so you're good to go already.  A 10pt captain on a CA is fantastic, a 10pt captain on a traditional CL is starving for points to be effective.

- 27mm bow is great until you find 406mm+ armed BBs.  They will Overmatch you at any angle and DM's larger Citadel will get her deleted.  Worcester can at least pray that BB AP Overpens her.  DM?  If they can get past that 27mm bow and Overmatch you, Penetration and Citadel strikes are what to expect.  A Tier VIII Bismarck, Tirpitz is food for DM.  But a simple North Carolina with 406mm guns can do heavy damage against you and there's no angle to assume to mitigate that.

- When people see a Radar Cruiser, they expect you to do your d*mn job.  DM does that job very well, but Radar Cruiser play is very dangerous.  It demands playing aggressively forward where one mistake means you're spotted.  Since you're the closest spotted ship to the enemy team, you'll get focused hard.  Make a mistake in Radar Cruiser play, you'll be lucky to survive and make a second one.

 

Personally, DM is my most used and successful Tier X Cruiser.  She does lots of things, gives my team utility.  Even better, she goes great in Division play.  But the Radar Cruiser playstyle I do with DM is very stressful.  It's exciting with highs and lows, and it makes DM a big winner for me, but the playstyle is stressful.  One mistake, and it's over.  But done right, and I swing games.  A prized moment from a while back when I broke open a flank with my DM against DDs holding us back.  We had serious firepower but our BBs couldn't do anything against DDs that weren't spotted.  The DDs were chucking torps, holding us back.  But I sneaked my DM in and Radar'd them, so my teammates shot them up, drove them away.  The DDs could no longer aggressively push up in stealth and stealth torp our BBs at shorter ranges for better chances to hit.  That broke the game open for a big team win.

2xjWglz.jpg

As a Radar Cruiser DM can also play up and support friendly DDs.  I was typically the only non-DD up there closely supporting team Destroyers while everyone else is 15km back.  But again, it's a dangerous style of play.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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On 7/8/2020 at 5:17 AM, Shxhyxn_Rocks said:

Which should i grind for - Des Moines or Worcester??

For the fires... Worcester...

For the AP.... De Moines.

Both are considered gun fodder for the high caliber ships... If you like high tier game play... For my vote... Both are solid ships..

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I'd lean towards Des Moines currently. Worcester was real strong but got nerfed and powercrept pretty hard in the last year, and while Des Moines' troll armor has been ninja nerfed by the plethora of 18" guns added to T10 it otherwise holds up well.

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I wish I could do better in my des moines, maybe I got it before being really ready for her.... My Wooster wins alot, maybe it just fits me better. 

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On 7/11/2020 at 4:34 PM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Personally, DM is my most used and successful Tier X Cruiser. 

It is strange that, by the stats, DM is a pretty meh (or worse) T10 cruiser. Its sibling Salem is even worse. BUT you do see lots of DMs in competitive play so they must be doing something right. (at least until the meta became Stalingrads and Venezias)

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Salem does worse because it gets bought by people who haven’t put in the time to learn how to play her by grinding up the line.  The difference in stats between the Des Moines and Salem simply illustrates how important the person behind the keyboard is.

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On 7/8/2020 at 5:17 AM, Shxhyxn_Rocks said:

Which should i grind for - Des Moines or Worcester??

both

 

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On 7/15/2020 at 7:56 AM, Meta_Man said:

I wish I could do better in my des moines, maybe I got it before being really ready for her.... My Wooster wins alot, maybe it just fits me better. 

I think the Des is suffering a little bit from the addition of 3 more ships that can over match her bow.  I don't have her myself but I play against her quite a bit.  She was very frustrating to play against back when my BB options were Mass, Iowa and Monty.  She would just nose in next to an island and sling HE while bouncing all my american AP.  Now that I have Georgia and Ohio they try the same thing and get paddled.  I imagine the shikashima does similar work to them.

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5 minutes ago, HallaSnackbar said:

I think the Des is suffering a little bit from the addition of 3 more ships that can over match her bow.  I don't have her myself but I play against her quite a bit.  She was very frustrating to play against back when my BB options were Mass, Iowa and Monty.  She would just nose in next to an island and sling HE while bouncing all my american AP.  Now that I have Georgia and Ohio they try the same thing and get paddled.  I imagine the shikashima does similar work to them.

Good points, I use Wooster close to the same as my Cleveland... 🏝 Humping cap defense /deny boats

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On 7/30/2020 at 9:54 AM, HallaSnackbar said:

I think the Des is suffering a little bit from the addition of 3 more ships that can over match her bow.  I don't have her myself but I play against her quite a bit.  She was very frustrating to play against back when my BB options were Mass, Iowa and Monty.  She would just nose in next to an island and sling HE while bouncing all my american AP.  Now that I have Georgia and Ohio they try the same thing and get paddled.  I imagine the shikashima does similar work to them.

Indeed. 406mm guns are okay, you can still angle against them to mitigate some of the damage though not all of it. I always try to angle at ca. 25-30 degree so that the 30mm plates on the deck and sides bounce shots going midships and most of the shots going into the bow overpen. There is however the spot below the turrets where you can still get citadelled through, or at least eat full pen damage. Overall it prevents instant deletion though, especially if you can trick the BB into shooting the belt.

Now, with anything overpenning 30mm this is much less effective, and dodging or bouncing long-range fire is also not an option so all of the new 457mm and 430mm+ in general are just killing DM.

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On 7/15/2020 at 9:21 AM, Sabot_100 said:

It is strange that, by the stats, DM is a pretty meh (or worse) T10 cruiser. Its sibling Salem is even worse. BUT you do see lots of DMs in competitive play so they must be doing something right. (at least until the meta became Stalingrads and Venezias)

The thing with USN Cruisers, at least in High Tier, is that they're poor damage dealers.  Look up Cleveland, Seattle, Worcester, Baltimore, Buffalo, Des Moines, Salem stats, and compare their damage output to other Cruiser lines.  They're typically in the bottom of the pile.  German, Russian, IJN, French, whatever... They all do better damage.  Except RNCLs, they typically are bottom feeders in damage also.  Even Neptune and Minotaur with their fast firing guns aren't respected for being regular heavy damage dealers.

 

The only thing DM has is she is IMO, one of the best Radar Cruisers in the game.  She can get into some very cramped areas and still present a lot of firepower with her fast firing 203mm guns. 

Concealment is okay.

But her Radar is killer, 10km with long Active duration.

And she can poke into areas with only her bow, pop Radar, and still present good firepower with 2/3 of her fast firing turrets, whereas lots of Cruisers need to turn out and show more sides to use more guns.

 

Utility is what USN Cruisers bring, because it sure isn't Damage Dealing.  Even in mid tiers with Helena and the like, they're not good damage dealers.  Helena despite FIFTEEN of those 152mm guns does mediocre damage average.

CL Helena does 33.3k Dmg Avg

CA New Orleans 31.6k

 

CL Schors 38.4k - People complain she's a Death Trap, yet she does great damage for a Tier VII Cruiser.

CL Fiji 39.1k

CA Surrey 37.7k

CA Algerie 38.9k

CA Yorck 33.6k - Only Non-USN Cruiser to do as bad as USN Cruisers this tier.

CA Myoko 35.7k

CA Zara 38.5k

(Source: Maplesyrup NA server weekly stats 2020-09-12)

 

The disparity in Tier X Cruiser damage dealing between USN and the other lines is even worse.  Much, much worse.  Utility is the only thing USN offers.  If one doesn't want to do that and just deal damage, you're better off doing other Cruiser Lines.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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The only proper answer to this query, is  Yes.    or, C. All of the above.

  Both are very good.  Both cruiser lines are pretty solid as well, nearly all the way through.    Just depends on whether you want a 6"  mini gun;  or an 8" machine gun, lol.

Worcester has a better consumable suite;  Des Moines hits harder and is somewhat less squishy.    I find the US 8" AP to be addictive to use- you can just devour things with it.

Worcester is the better choice if you have a raging hatred of enemy DD's;  DM is a better pick if it's cruisers you have a mean appetite for.   Both can/will make BB's VERY angry, lol.

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