Should Kitakami Be a CL or DD?

[Admiral_Thrawn_1]

Given the fact Kitakami will be the Kuma hull at tier X, and torpedoes aside the guns will be on par or even less than X DDs, the same can be said about AA. For that matter pretty much everything about the ship is a DD. I was wanting to propose for everyone’s consideration the idea of making Kitakami a DD and removing the citadel from it. The thing is going to be easily sunk with the weak armor, AA, and gun armament without adding a very high citadel on top of everything else.

While historically the Kitakami and Kuma were small CLs, they were meant to serve in IJN DD squadrons. So really it’s not all that far fetched to call them DDs in game. Or we could set a new precedent in WOWs by having it be the only CL without a citadel but one way or the other that citadel needs to be dealt with. And before a few BB players that want to citadel Kitakami object to this idea, consider that by getting it reclassified as a DD will mean that it will have the DD soft limit applied to it. Meaning that instead of essentially having extra DDs in battles via the  Kitakami, you will instead see it’s numbers and the amount of torpedoes in a battle semi restrained.

[Lert]

CL speed, CL size, CL concealment, CL handling.

[capncrunch21]

Its a CL.

Regardless of 'game' considerations. Otherwise you start on a slippery slope... What's next? A Yamato DD because Wee Gee found sekrit soviet dokuments saying there was a Russian captured one that they took the main guns off and loaded up with nothing but torps.

[eviltane]

CL so that it can be citadelled

[Ducky_shot]

16 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Given the fact Kitakami will be the Kuma hull at tier X, and torpedoes aside the guns will be on par or even less than X DDs, the same can be said about AA. For that matter pretty much everything about the ship is a DD. I was wanting to propose for everyone’s consideration the idea of making Kitakami a DD and removing the citadel from it. The thing is going to be easily sunk with the weak armor, AA, and gun armament without adding a very high citadel on top of everything else.

While historically the Kitakami and Kuma were small CLs, they were meant to serve in IJN DD squadrons. So really it’s not all that far fetched to call them DDs in game. Or we could set a new precedent in WOWs by having it be the only CL without a citadel but one way or the other that citadel needs to be dealt with. And before a few BB players that want to citadel Kitakami object to this idea, consider that by getting it reclassified as a DD will mean that it will have the DD soft limit applied to it. Meaning that instead of essentially having extra DDs in battles via the  Kitakami, you will instead see it’s numbers and the amount of torpedoes in a battle semi restrained.

Imagine wanting these things to be hard to kill. 

Imagine that this thing will be the smolensk of torps. It will be hated more than smolensk. Not only will there be 3 man divs with it chucking 120 torps on a flank keeping bbs and cruisers further back and further tucked being islands, dds will refuse to cap open caps and it will also be killing your team mates all the while when the majority of the player base gets it, they won't be able to leverage it like skilled players and get killed way too easy. 

This ship will be awful for the game. 

[Neko_Ship_Akashi]

18 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Given the fact Kitakami will be the Kuma hull at tier X, and torpedoes aside the guns will be on par or even less than X DDs, the same can be said about AA. For that matter pretty much everything about the ship is a DD. I was wanting to propose for everyone’s consideration the idea of making Kitakami a DD and removing the citadel from it. The thing is going to be easily sunk with the weak armor, AA, and gun armament without adding a very high citadel on top of everything else.

While historically the Kitakami and Kuma were small CLs, they were meant to serve in IJN DD squadrons. So really it’s not all that far fetched to call them DDs in game. Or we could set a new precedent in WOWs by having it be the only CL without a citadel but one way or the other that citadel needs to be dealt with. And before a few BB players that want to citadel Kitakami object to this idea, consider that by getting it reclassified as a DD will mean that it will have the DD soft limit applied to it. Meaning that instead of essentially having extra DDs in battles via the  Kitakami, you will instead see it’s numbers and the amount of torpedoes in a battle semi restrained.

Kitakami was a cruiser before her conversion, as such she should remain a CL, her designation wasn't changed after her conversion to BDD, it was changed to CLT. She is still an old light cruiser and should be treated as such. No amount of tangential reasoning changes the fact she is a light cruiser.

[Admiral_Thrawn_1]

3 minutes ago, eviltane said:

CL so that it can be citadelled

Lol then you will have to face battles where you BB faces 3-6 Shimakaze, 3+ Kitakami, and maybe some submarines. Do you really want to have that happen? Because you know it will happen just like this often enough.

[Neko_Ship_Akashi]

19 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

While historically the Kitakami and Kuma were small CLs, they were meant to serve in IJN DD squadrons. So really it’s not all that far fetched to call them DDs in game. 

By that logic Haidia should be a CL as well, and every single IJN CL should be called DDs. This line of reasoning makes absolutely no sense. 

[Neko_Ship_Akashi]

5 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Lol then you will have to face battles where you BB faces 3-6 Shimakaze, 3+ Kitakami, and maybe some submarines. Do you really want to have that happen? Because you know it will happen just like this often enough.

So what? I've been in a Yamato with 6 Shimas on the enemy team with a few Gearings for extra troll. Survived the match and blapped 4 DDs. You're way to pessimistic here and have a way overinflated opinion about the Kitakami. 

[Stew_Pedastle]

I propose the whole ship be made of a citadel .  There is no need for a ship like it .

[Ann_Darrow]

The Kuma-class started out at 5500 tons and then later exceeded 7000 tons full-load displacement.  (from The Imperial Japanese Navy In the Pacific War, pg 201-202, Mark E. Stille)  And that was before Kitakami was converted into a torpedo cruiser.

Specs:

5100 tons standard, 7094 tons full load

length 532 ft, beam 46.5 ft., draft 29ft  (pg 204) 

 That would be one massive DD.

[warheart1992]

Personally Kitakami should be a far off memory of early game shenanigans instead of a real possibility...

[BrushWolf]

23 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

While historically the Kitakami and Kuma were small CLs, they were meant to serve in IJN DD squadrons. So really it’s not all that far fetched to call them DDs in game. Or we could set a new precedent in WOWs by having it be the only CL without a citadel but one way or the other that citadel needs to be dealt with. And before a few BB players that want to citadel Kitakami object to this idea, consider that by getting it reclassified as a DD will mean that it will have the DD soft limit applied to it. Meaning that instead of essentially having extra DDs in battles via the  Kitakami, you will instead see it’s numbers and the amount of torpedoes in a battle semi restrained.

They were simply CL's until later in life when the IJN gave them the DL job.

2 minutes ago, Neko_Ship_Akashi said:

By that logic Haidia should be a CL as well, and every single IJN CL should be called DDs. This line of reasoning makes absolutely no sense. 

The Japanese used older CL's as their DL's because of the small size of most of their DD's which limited them on how much radio gear they could carry where the CL's didn't have that limitation. The US because of its much larger DD's didn't have to use CL's although they would.

2 minutes ago, Ann_Darrow said:

The Kuma-class started out at 5500 tons and then later exceeded 7000 tons full-load displacement.  (from The Imperial Japanese Navy In the Pacific War, pg 201-202, Mark E. Stille)  And that was before Kitakami was converted into a torpedo cruiser.

Specs:

5100 tons standard, 7094 tons full load

length 532 ft, beam 46.5 ft., draft 29ft  (pg 204) 

 That would be one massive DD.

But small by modern standards. I foresee a Smolensk like ability to shrug off AP because of the extreme number of over penetrations.

1 minute ago, warheart1992 said:

Personally Kitakamj should be a far off memory of early game shenanigans instead of a real possibility...

I agree but like with subs someone at WG changed their mind.

[Sovereigndawg]

Kitikami in the Research Bureau, I'll start saving now and get it in 4 seasons. Yes, it's true, it sounds like Research bait to me.

[tcbaker777]

what it should be is out of the game where it belongs, itll only cause trouble as long as team damage is a thing that can happen

[MrDeaf]

23 minutes ago, capncrunch21 said:

Its a CL.

Regardless of 'game' considerations. Otherwise you start on a slippery slope... What's next? A Yamato DD because Wee Gee found sekrit soviet dokuments saying there was a Russian captured one that they took the main guns off and loaded up with nothing but torps.

Sorry, but that argument went out the window with Khab, Okhotnik and the in testing Emilio

[Ann_Darrow]

4 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

They were simply CL's until later in life when the IJN gave them the DL job.

The Japanese used older CL's as their DL's because of the small size of most of their DD's which limited them on how much radio gear they could carry where the CL's didn't have that limitation. The US because of its much larger DD's didn't have to use CL's although they would.

But small by modern standards. I foresee a Smolensk like ability to shrug off AP because of the extreme number of over penetrations.

I agree but like with subs someone at WG changed their mind.

An Arleigh Burke is massive compared to this thing, definitely.

[Zenn3k]

CL, but I do think it should get closer to DD levels of concealment, like 8.5 KM base.   The current concealment just seems too high for the ship to get into effective ranges without it getting blapped from being spotted so early.

[Learux]

This thing will be available if you fork over enough $. If they release it it shows a lot of desperation.

This thing will be very very bad for the game.

 

[Umikami]

23 minutes ago, Lert said:

CL speed, CL size, CL concealment, CL handling.

and, with a 140 mm main battery, CL guns!

24 minutes ago, eviltane said:

CL so that it can be citadelled

combined with paper thin armor fore and aft, so it can't! (just overpenned!)

21 minutes ago, Ducky_shot said:

It will be hated more than smolensk. This ship will be awful for the game. 

This is truth! (let the salt flow begin, spurred on by the tears of the recently team-killed!)

[Neko_Ship_Akashi]

15 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

The Japanese used older CL's as their DL's because of the small size of most of their DD's which limited them on how much radio gear they could carry where the CL's didn't have that limitation. The US because of its much larger DD's didn't have to use CL's although they would.

I know the reasoning, I was responding to his silly idea that the conversion somehow made them large DDs and not just simply Torpedo Cruisers (as they were designated).

[BrushWolf]

5 minutes ago, Umikami said:

and, with a 140 mm main battery, CL guns!

combined with paper thin armor fore and aft, so it can't! (just overpenned!)

DD class guns should citadel like crazy and maybe even 6" CL guns.

[mofton]

From a balance perspective it might be needed. I'm honestly not sure if she looks good or bad at the moment, because overall she looks insanely asymmetric. 

Destroyer Leader I think is used as something of a misnomer. I see it as a role rather than a class for the most part, with exceptions for some slightly larger but still very destroyer-ish destroyers such as the British 5-gun interest standards or some US classes. The Treaty loophole for 1850t 'leaders' used to build ships like the Tribals didn't really generate leaders. The larger cruiser like 'destroyer 'leaders' are just cruisers doing a job. The British had C class cruisers acting as both destroyer flotilla leaders and as cruisers at the same time, that didn't make half of them a different type of ship. 

Given Khabarovsk and Paolo Emilio have armor, I wouldn't say that her having it discounts her from being a destroyer, though at 5,500t standard or more she is a step up above them again on size. 

[BrushWolf]

5 minutes ago, mofton said:

From a balance perspective it might be needed. I'm honestly not sure if she looks good or bad at the moment, because overall she looks insanely asymmetric. 

Destroyer Leader I think is used as something of a misnomer. I see it as a role rather than a class for the most part, with exceptions for some slightly larger but still very destroyer-ish destroyers such as the British 5-gun interest standards or some US classes. The Treaty loophole for 1850t 'leaders' used to build ships like the Tribals didn't really generate leaders. The larger cruiser like 'destroyer 'leaders' are just cruisers doing a job. The British had C class cruisers acting as both destroyer flotilla leaders and as cruisers at the same time, that didn't make half of them a different type of ship. 

Given Khabarovsk and Paolo Emilio have armor, I wouldn't say that her having it discounts her from being a destroyer, though at 5,500t standard or more she is a step up above them again on size. 

Correct, DL was a role and not a class and the ship retained it's original class.

[Kapitan_Wuff]

Even as a CL it's rediculous, making it a DD would be completely absurd.