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Can We Improve the FDG? (or at least balance it properly)

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This ship sucks so bad and is boring and frustrating to play. Here is my personal analysis, this is what I think and found, but if you think otherwise fair enough.

AA and Secondaries: AA is fine and the secondaries are probably the only positive aspect of this ship.

Maneuverability: Slow and unwieldy compared to other bbs, but not that important.

Survivability: Although it has a large health pool, the armour is considerably thinner compared to most bbs and succumbs to plunging fire and most shells at long distances. Sure it's above average at close range but you'll end up getting blapped or burnt down before you get close. Not to mention you are a massive target.

Angling: This ship has terrible angling to unmask all turrets. Sure it's slightly better on the defensive but that defeats the purpose of trying to get close and brawl.

Main Guns (oh god why): Everything previously so far you could chalk up to bad real world design, but why do the guns have to suck too. They are so innacurate... why? Aren't twin turrets easier to handle than triples? Didn't Bismarck show good gunnery? How come gunnery goes down the drain the moment you increase the caliber by 1/1.5". And there's nothing special about the shells, they don't have amazing fire chance nor pen that well IMO. I can't even hit full broadside targets reliably past ~12km. Not to mention you are usually outgunned by other bbs in IX.

In conclusion, every aspect of this ship sucks. It eats damage, it can't maneuver to save itself, it can't fire without becoming an A+ target, and it can't hit anything reliably beyond ridiculously close range.

So what do I think needs to change? Either a) Improve accuracy: that's all I want more than anything, or b) Downtier. Maybe I sound like a crazy person but I think this wouldn't be unfair in tier VIII; Monarch, North Carolina, Amagi, etc, all seem like fair matches to an H-39 IRL. Maybe lower the health a little and I think everything else is perfect for this tier. As for what should go in FDG's place: Ludendorff. It's basically the same design but with four more barrels at 15", if I'm going to have terrible accuracy I would much rather have the 12 15s than the 8 16s.

Anyway that's my take on Friedrich der Große and what should change. Hopefully you can see my plight, maybe you think I'm a brainlet, so be it.

-Himler

 

 

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So if you downtier FDG, what happens to Bismarck?

you’re not wrong of course, playing Bismarck in Ranked Sprint even with only a 10 point captain was an absolute joy compared to a typical FDG random match 

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1 hour ago, Ad0lf_Himler said:

This ship sucks so bad and is boring and frustrating to play. Here is my personal analysis, this is what I think and found, but if you think otherwise fair enough.

AA and Secondaries: AA is fine and the secondaries are probably the only positive aspect of this ship.

Maneuverability: Slow and unwieldy compared to other bbs, but not that important.

Survivability: Although it has a large health pool, the armour is considerably thinner compared to most bbs and succumbs to plunging fire and most shells at long distances. Sure it's above average at close range but you'll end up getting blapped or burnt down before you get close. Not to mention you are a massive target.

Angling: This ship has terrible angling to unmask all turrets. Sure it's slightly better on the defensive but that defeats the purpose of trying to get close and brawl.

Main Guns (oh god why): Everything previously so far you could chalk up to bad real world design, but why do the guns have to suck too. They are so innacurate... why? Aren't twin turrets easier to handle than triples? Didn't Bismarck show good gunnery? How come gunnery goes down the drain the moment you increase the caliber by 1/1.5". And there's nothing special about the shells, they don't have amazing fire chance nor pen that well IMO. I can't even hit full broadside targets reliably past ~12km. Not to mention you are usually outgunned by other bbs in IX.

In conclusion, every aspect of this ship sucks. It eats damage, it can't maneuver to save itself, it can't fire without becoming an A+ target, and it can't hit anything reliably beyond ridiculously close range.

So what do I think needs to change? Either a) Improve accuracy: that's all I want more than anything, or b) Downtier. Maybe I sound like a crazy person but I think this wouldn't be unfair in tier VIII; Monarch, North Carolina, Amagi, etc, all seem like fair matches to an H-39 IRL. Maybe lower the health a little and I think everything else is perfect for this tier. As for what should go in FDG's place: Ludendorff. It's basically the same design but with four more barrels at 15", if I'm going to have terrible accuracy I would much rather have the 12 15s than the 8 16s.

Anyway that's my take on Friedrich der Große and what should change. Hopefully you can see my plight, maybe you think I'm a brainlet, so be it.

-Himler

 

 

 

Oh god, do I have to do this again!?

I hate it when people say that the Friedrich der Grosse is terrible. It's NOT. The ship is totally fine as-is . You just need to learn how to play with it's strengths and around it's weaknesses. 

First of all, the armor. 84,300 hitpoints is the third largest HP pool at Tier IX, only behind the Sovetsky Soyuz and the Musashi. And just because the in-port stat shows it has a 300mm armor belt, does NOT mean that it has extremely thin armor for a battleship. You want to see thin armor, play the HMS Lion as you would this ship, and watch your insides get blown out like a Pinata. The Friedrich, on the other hand, has a turtle-back armor scheme that is sloped at 55 degrees, which means that shots into the citadel are nigh impossible, unless at extremely long ranges. If you have problems with plunging fire, go bow in, and let the 80mm central weather deck do the rest. If you have a problem getting blapped at close range, play it like you would the Gneisenau, straight bow in, and let your secondaries do the work for you. There's no need to force yourself to use all four gun turrets. If you keep getting burned down, try a survivability build. That will work guaranteed.

Next, the armaments. Yes, the dispersion is wonky. However, the reason for that is because it's basically a Super-Bismarck, with the exact same 4x2 layout, and  Friedrich has the fastest reloading battleship caliber guns at Tier IX to compensate, with her 406mm rifles loading in a mere 26 seconds, and that gets down to 22.9 seconds with Main Battery Modification 3. Yes, the Georgia also has the same reload, but it has to concern itself more with accuracy than anything else, because it only gets six guns. The closest comparison it has is the Jean Bart, and the JB suffers from a lack of 27mm overmatch, which this ship doesn't suffer from. The secondary armament of the Friedrich is also similar to the main guns. Yes, it has poor accuracy compared to the Georgia, but it makes up for it with sheer shell volume and increased penetration, without sacrificing the fire-starting potential.

If you have penetration issues, switch to the 420mm guns. They have comparable penetration and damage to the USN 406mm/50 Mark 7 guns found on the Iowa and Missouri, while still having better DPM. You also have a lightning fast turret traverse that's only beaten by the Sovetsky Soyuz.

I'll leave the AA alone, because it's somewhat irrelevant. Just know that a full secondary build also nets you some nasty AA firepower that will dissuade most Tier VIII carriers from even coming near you.

For maneuverability, well, it's a battleship. It has a  4.0* / sec rotation rate over 930 meters or so. It's better than pretty much everyone else save the Jean Bart, Alsace, and Lion, with the only downside being the rather long rudder shift time, but that's nothing new for battleships. 

Yes, the concealment is bad, sure. But, it's not like anybody else is worse. A survivability build is the best way to go if you want to deal with concealment issues. The only ships that are stealthier are the Jean Bart, Iowa, Missouri, and Lion. And they don't have access the 6km hydroacoustic search consumable that allows the Friedrich to keep an eye out for torpedoes or DDs lurking in smoke.

I admit, I have a terrible winrate in the Friedrich der Grosse, but that's because I had to grind through the stock hull, which is a bit of a painful experience, lemme tell you.

TL;DR 1: Git Gud and learn to play this ship

TL;DR 2: Why the @#%! are you at Tier IX with less than 650 random battles played!?

TL;DR 3: Read my damn review

 

Angrily and Sincerely

Shrayes

Edit: And yes, OP, you are a brainlet. I hate to say it.

Edit 2: To (mis)quote Clint Eastwood

There's gotta be a million reasons why I don't salt you now.

Right now I can't think of one.

Edited by Shrayes_Bhagavatula
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im at this ship and ho god, the engine is pretty unexistant, cant accelerate, cant slow down, cant turn is this thing made out of concrete instead of krupp steel ?

the guns are really inaccurate, shoot at the back of a kronshtadt, shells land in front of it, if it hits it does a measely 1270 dmg overpen if it does not just bounce or shatter

armor, what armor ? at a 45 degree angle, a pretty decent angle for the king of armor the thing is showing, everything do pen damage, at this tier, everything as better pens angle so 45 degree become worthless its ridiculus.

for me the maneuverability is the killer, i can deal with everything else, but the fact that the 135000hp engine of Izumo makesthe izumo experience so much better compared to the 165000hp engine of the FDG is staggering

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9 minutes ago, devilman275 said:

im at this ship and ho god, the engine is pretty unexistant, cant accelerate, cant slow down, cant turn is this thing made out of concrete instead of krupp steel ?

the guns are really inaccurate, shoot at the back of a kronshtadt, shells land in front of it, if it hits it does a measely 1270 dmg overpen if it does not just bounce or shatter

armor, what armor ? at a 45 degree angle, a pretty decent angle for the king of armor the thing is showing, everything do pen damage, at this tier, everything as better pens angle so 45 degree become worthless its ridiculus.

for me the maneuverability is the killer, i can deal with everything else, but the fact that the 135000hp engine of Izumo makesthe izumo experience so much better compared to the 165000hp engine of the FDG is staggering

Point 1: It's not made of concrete, it's made of krupp steel, and, believe it or not, battleships actually have a W key and an S key, and you can use that when maneuvering to make better turns.

Point 2: If you're shooting at the back of a Kronshtadt, you're wasting your time

Point 3: A 45 degree angle is not automatic autobounce territory, let me remind you. It's only the area where ricochet checks begin to happen. 

Point 4. Izumo is completely different than the Friedrich der Grosse. Also, the Friedrich is faster than the Izumo by two whole knots. Also, your hull doesn't turn like molasses, and you aren't as vulnerable to DDs. ( Hydro. It exists for a reason )

Shall I continue making a hash of your arguments?

:SerB:

Edited by Shrayes_Bhagavatula

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26 minutes ago, Shrayes_Bhagavatula said:

 

Oh god, do I have to do this again!?

I hate it when people say that the Friedrich der Grosse is terrible. It's NOT. The ship is totally fine as-is . You just need to learn how to play with it's strengths and around it's weaknesses. 

First of all, the armor. 84,300 hitpoints is the third largest HP pool at Tier IX, only behind the Sovetsky Soyuz and the Musashi. And just because the in-port stat shows it has a 300mm armor belt, does NOT mean that it has extremely thin armor for a battleship. You want to see thin armor, play the HMS Lion as you would this ship, and watch your insides get blown out like a Pinata. The Friedrich, on the other hand, has a turtle-back armor scheme that is sloped at 55 degrees, which means that shots into the citadel are nigh impossible, unless at extremely long ranges. If you have problems with plunging fire, go bow in, and let the 80mm central weather deck do the rest. If you have a problem getting blapped at close range, play it like you would the Gneisenau, straight bow in, and let your secondaries do the work for you. There's no need to force yourself to use all four gun turrets. If you keep getting burned down, try a survivability build. That will work guaranteed.

Next, the armaments. Yes, the dispersion is wonky. However, the reason for that is because it's basically a Super-Bismarck, with the exact same 4x2 layout, and  Friedrich has the fastest reloading battleship caliber guns at Tier IX to compensate, with her 406mm rifles loading in a mere 26 seconds, and that gets down to 22.9 seconds with Main Battery Modification 3. Yes, the Georgia also has the same reload, but it has to concern itself more with accuracy than anything else, because it only gets six guns. The closest comparison it has is the Jean Bart, and the JB suffers from a lack of 27mm overmatch, which this ship doesn't suffer from. The secondary armament of the Friedrich is also similar to the main guns. Yes, it has poor accuracy compared to the Georgia, but it makes up for it with sheer shell volume and increased penetration, without sacrificing the fire-starting potential.

If you have penetration issues, switch to the 420mm guns. They have comparable penetration and damage to the USN 406mm/50 Mark 7 guns found on the Iowa and Missouri, while still having better DPM. You also have a lightning fast turret traverse that's only beaten by the Sovetsky Soyuz.

I'll leave the AA alone, because it's somewhat irrelevant. Just know that a full secondary build also nets you some nasty AA firepower that will dissuade most Tier VIII carriers from even coming near you.

For maneuverability, well, it's a battleship. It has a  4.0* / sec rotation rate over 930 meters or so. It's better than pretty much everyone else save the Jean Bart, Alsace, and Lion, with the only downside being the rather long rudder shift time, but that's nothing new for battleships. 

Yes, the concealment is bad, sure. But, it's not like anybody else is worse. A survivability build is the best way to go if you want to deal with concealment issues. The only ships that are stealthier are the Jean Bart, Iowa, Missouri, and Lion. And they don't have access the 6km hydroacoustic search consumable that allows the Friedrich to keep an eye out for torpedoes or DDs lurking in smoke.

I admit, I have a terrible winrate in the Friedrich der Grosse, but that's because I had to grind through the stock hull, which is a bit of a painful experience, lemme tell you.

TL;DR 1: Git Gud and learn to play this ship

TL;DR 2: Why the @#%! are you at Tier IX with less than 650 random battles played!?

TL;DR 3: Read my damn review

 

Angrily and Sincerely

Shrayes

Edit: And yes, OP, you are a brainlet. I hate to say it.

Ok, I would like to make some counterpoints wheraboo ;).

The hitpool is at best ~10,000 more than the weaker bbs, which is great but doesn't solve every other problem. Sure you wont get citadelled,  but that doesn't solve the problem of getting full pen salvos from other ships. You wont get your vitals blown out, but you will still get disemboweled. 

Plunging fire is an issue no matter how you position yourself, either way if you bow in you get HE spammed, and charging the enemy tends to get you torped good sir. Hydroacoustic search isn't going to save you charging near a skilled dd.

What good is maybe 1 extra salvo every 2.5mins if you hit ~50% less, the good thing about Georgia is that it has 18" guns and Jean Bart can bow in with full armament. The rotation speed is very nice, but won't save the ship either.

Look, as a whole this ship is a fat lady with a shotgun in a vast open ocean. It can absorb damage but cant hit anything that's not right in front of its face. 

Also Mind your damn buisness, I grinded for this ship, I will play this ship.

I get your points, fairly enough I understand FDG mains will not like my viewpoint. But it doesn't change the fact that on average, this ship is outplayed everywhere unless you play it a certain way that doesn't even work most times. (Can we agree that sometimes our teamates are cowards and leave us to die trying to use this ship the proper way?)

With anger and respect,

-Himler

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3 minutes ago, Shrayes_Bhagavatula said:

Point 1: It's not made of concrete, it's made of krupp steel, and, believe it or not, battleships actually have a W key and an S key, and you can use that when maneuvering to make better turns.

Point 2: If you're shooting at the back of a Kronshtadt, you're wasting your time

Point 3: A 45 degree angle is not automatic autobounce territory, let me remind you. It's only the area where ricochet checks begin to happen. 

Point 4. Izumo is completely different than the Friedrich der Grosse. Also, the Friedrich is faster than the Izumo by two whole knots. Also, your hull doesn't turn like molasses, and you aren't as vulnerable to DDs. ( Hydro. It exists for a reason )

Shall I continue making a hash of your arguments?

:SerB:

1:  boy do you need to learn jokes, and if you think this barn doesnt try to turn and bleed all its speed the second somebody think about it, yea no, moot point

2: shooting a someone trying to back back into an island, while you, yourself are stationnary so no momentum on the shot, aim at the back of the ship so the shell lands middlish, and the whole volley lands 500m in front of the ship, yea no thats inaccurate, even more when the second time you aim at the exact same place onder the same circonstance, and it falls where you aimed, the ship has an accuracy issue, lets not even talk about precision.

3: ship covered in 60- 145mm plating should  bounce alot more than it does at those angles, kremlin with 150mm side plating bounce alot more, and yes, with the introduction of SAP and super soviet cruiser AP, angling doesnt mean anything, your going to eat 10-15k damage everytime even bown on.

4:  2 knts faster when you bleed all the speed the second you turn  is not faster, izumo has to give the samish angle to unveal the 3rd turret, you could take musashi or yamato and those do respond better than FDG so yea. not faster, think like IS-7, can go 70km/h, wont go 50/kmh by itself, unless you want to be predictable with that 1km turn circle

so far most of my game have been with stock hull, just researched the B one and there is improvement. still the ship is intensionnally poorly balanced.

the gun angle are intensionnally poor by WG's design, #4 turret could use more degree to help, #4 should have the same angle as #3, making angling less of a pain.

then after that look at maing the gun accurate, no need to be precise,just accurate, to improve shell tendency to actually land where it aims.

finally the engine should show alot more power for the stats it has, this again as another hidden stats (how much time the ship takes to full power)

actually. izumo as better turret angle, making the meh 32mm plating act as better armor than the [edited] 145mm, FDG could use the the superstructure not arming BB caliber shell so much too that be nice for those nose in i guess.

for engine power, FDG lose for 30knts to 23knts just unveiling the turret, izumo lose for 28kns to 23 for a sharper turret unveiling turn (and regain it faster)


also lol, not the greatest angle, just a snapshot i took at 12km, annnnd citadel, mind you its not full breadside 90 degree, its about heeeh. 65-70 degree ? 300mm belt, + 150mm turtleback + 45 mm citadel and still found it

image.thumb.png.ebdb1dea465ff40f3c865d560f56bab7.pngimage.thumb.png.efe2f8317c846f0fed8ff0cf08bea4ae.pngimage.thumb.png.c5b6a8dcc647850c57f5cfb3e0b25394.png

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21 minutes ago, Ad0lf_Himler said:

Ok, I would like to make some counterpoints wheraboo ;).

First of all, it's wehraboo, not how you spelled it. Second, accusing me of being a Wehraboo is pointless. You don't see me saying that German ships are faultless, now do you? Second, my strongest ship is the USS Monaghan, not any of the Germans ( though the Bismarck is a close second )

22 minutes ago, Ad0lf_Himler said:

The hitpool is at best ~10,000 more than the weaker bbs, which is great but doesn't solve every other problem. Sure you wont get citadelled,  but that doesn't solve the problem of getting full pen salvos from other ships. You wont get your vitals blown out, but you will still get disemboweled. 

Every battleship will get disemboweled by other battleships, regardless of whether it's a Friedrich or a Soyuz. Citadel-hit disembowelments are worse, though.

24 minutes ago, Ad0lf_Himler said:

Plunging fire is an issue no matter how you position yourself, either way if you bow in you get HE spammed, and charging the enemy tends to get you torped good sir. Hydroacoustic search isn't going to save you charging near a skilled dd.

The whole point of the Hydro is as an area-denial tool, similar to the radar on Stalingrad. And every battleship will get HE-spammed bow in. Freddy is no different. And charging in as a battleship without support is suicide, regardless of what may come.

26 minutes ago, Ad0lf_Himler said:

What good is maybe 1 extra salvo every 2.5mins if you hit ~50% less, the good thing about Georgia is that it has 18" guns and Jean Bart can bow in with full armament. The rotation speed is very nice, but won't save the ship either.

Both the Georgia and the JB are good gun platforms, I will make no mistake with that. However, both ships are far softer than the Friedrich der Grosse, with far less health and alarming amounts of 32mm plating. Even if you were to play all three ships to an inch of textbook-spec play, the Friedrich still lasts longer. The only things that can be said are that the Jean Bart does not need to expose itself to fire all of it's guns, and the Georgia has fast cool-down heals. Friedrich has neither, but to compensate, it's more difficult to damage directly. Another thing is the turret rotation speed. The Jean Bart has a 5*/ second turret traverse, the Georgia also has a 5*/second turret traverse. Friedrich, on the other hand, has a 5.5*/second turret traverse. That traverse speed means that the Friedrich can very quickly change its firing direction on all four turrets and not lose aim ( Jean Bart is also good with this, because of the full-forward arrangement of the turrets, but that means it cannot fire directly backwards, something the Friedrich can do ). Georgia, on the other hand, has difficulty with this because of the high speed and rotation rate when Engine Boost is active.

36 minutes ago, Ad0lf_Himler said:

Look, as a whole this ship is a fat lady with a shotgun in a vast open ocean. It can absorb damage but cant hit anything that's not right in front of its face. 

Lol, good analogy, though I don't exactly agree with the last part. I once triple citadeled a Sinop at a range of around ~12 kilometers. The dispersion curve change really did do something to help it, after all....

 

38 minutes ago, Ad0lf_Himler said:

Also Mind your damn buisness, I grinded for this ship, I will play this ship.

I also grinded this ship, and I also played this ship. Also, you spelled business wrong ( how!?).

39 minutes ago, Ad0lf_Himler said:

I get your points, fairly enough I understand FDG mains will not like my viewpoint. But it doesn't change the fact that on average, this ship is outplayed everywhere unless you play it a certain way that doesn't even work most times. (Can we agree that sometimes our teamates are cowards and leave us to die trying to use this ship the proper way?

Every ship will get outplayed some way or the other. Musashi can get deleted by shooting at the cheek, for example. 

And yes, team-mates are cowards. Then again, what can we do? It's the endless weekend. 

-Shrayes

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35 minutes ago, devilman275 said:

1:  boy do you need to learn jokes, and if you think this barn doesnt try to turn and bleed all its speed the second somebody think about it, yea no, moot point

You think the Friedrich handles poorly? Unbelievably, the Soyuz and Musashi are even worse. Friedrich rotates at around 3.8* per second, while Musashi turns at around 3.5* and Soyuz at 3.3*

37 minutes ago, devilman275 said:

2: shooting a someone trying to back back into an island, while you, yourself are stationnary so no momentum on the shot, aim at the back of the ship so the shell lands middlish, and the whole volley lands 500m in front of the ship, yea no thats inaccurate, even more when the second time you aim at the exact same place onder the same circonstance, and it falls where you aimed, the ship has an accuracy issue, lets not even talk about precision.

First off, thanks for clarifying the scenario. Second, Friedrich's dispersion isn't that bad. I mean, there's inaccuracy, and then there's shotgun accuracy. Friedrich is inaccurate, yes, but a shotgun? No. That's probably your aim or RNGeebus saying no.

39 minutes ago, devilman275 said:

3: ship covered in 60- 145mm plating should  bounce alot more than it does at those angles, kremlin with 150mm side plating bounce alot more, and yes, with the introduction of SAP and super soviet cruiser AP, angling doesnt mean anything, your going to eat 10-15k damage everytime even bown on.

The reason why Kremlin bounces so much AP is because it sits so low in the water ( it's quite literally defying physics, don't ask me how ). Friedrich, on the other hand, has quite a high freeboard. Also, any cruiser with a hint of sense will load AP the moment the side of a battleship is given to feast upon, and the reason why SAP does so much damage is because it's hitting the superstructure, not the upper belt. Brindisi SAP only has 54mm of penetration, where Friedrich has a 145mm upper belt.

 

46 minutes ago, devilman275 said:

4:  2 knts faster when you bleed all the speed the second you turn  is not faster, izumo has to give the samish angle to unveal the 3rd turret, you could take musashi or yamato and those do respond better than FDG so yea. not faster, think like IS-7, can go 70km/h, wont go 50/kmh by itself, unless you want to be predictable with that 1km turn circle

Slight problem with that theory of yours: Musashi and Yamato waddle along at the same speed as the North Carolina and Massachussets. Also, in-port stats say nothing about the actual turning circle that a ship has; If you want that info, LittleWhiteMouse would be happy to give it to you. Also, the Friedrich's dimensions and proportions change your perception of how the ship handles. It's a Psychology thing. ( and where did the IS-7 come from. This is Warships, not Tanks - Ed )

50 minutes ago, devilman275 said:

so far most of my game have been with stock hull, just researched the B one and there is improvement. still the ship is intensionnally poorly balanced.

the gun angle are intensionnally poor by WG's design, #4 turret could use more degree to help, #4 should have the same angle as #3, making angling less of a pain.

then after that look at maing the gun accurate, no need to be precise,just accurate, to improve shell tendency to actually land where it aims.

finally the engine should show alot more power for the stats it has, this again as another hidden stats (how much time the ship takes to full power)

actually. izumo as better turret angle, making the meh 32mm plating act as better armor than the [edited] 145mm, FDG could use the the superstructure not arming BB caliber shell so much too that be nice for those nose in i guess.

The Stock-hull grind is rough, I admit, but the "intentional poor balancing" is more of a fault with the H-class design than anything else.  

Izumo is consistent because of that combination of the unique Japanese BB Dispersion curve and 2.0 sigma. Friedrich, on the other hand has the same accuracy parameters as the Iowa, with a slightly lower sigma parameter. 

The acceleration statistics is the same for all battleships across the board. The reason why the Freddy feels sluggish is because it's actually faster than the Izumo, and takes longer to accelerate to full speed and decelerate to a dead stop because of the higher speed. Again, this is a matter of perception. 

Izumo's turret angles are kinda wonky, but they are half decent. As for the reason why the Freddy eats so much superstructure pen damage, it's because of the fact that the Friedrich has so much superstructure. Izumo, on the other hand, has very little superstructure, thus, just overpens. 

57 minutes ago, devilman275 said:

for engine power, FDG lose for 30knts to 23knts just unveiling the turret, izumo lose for 28kns to 23 for a sharper turret unveiling turn (and regain it faster)

Again, a matter of perception.

57 minutes ago, devilman275 said:

lso lol, not the greatest angle, just a snapshot i took at 12km, annnnd citadel, mind you its not full breadside 90 degree, its about heeeh. 65-70 degree ? 300mm belt, + 150mm turtleback + 45 mm citadel and still found it

image.thumb.png.ebdb1dea465ff40f3c865d560f56bab7.pngimage.thumb.png.efe2f8317c846f0fed8ff0cf08bea4ae.pngimage.thumb.png.c5b6a8dcc647850c57f5cfb3e0b25394.png

I'm aware of this. In fact, I have executed such shots before. The German Turtleback armor has weakpoints underneath the turrets that can be exploited, albeit with difficulty.

Also, I hate to be rude, but your grammar is terrible. Did you do this with a phone?

-Shrayes

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13 minutes ago, Shrayes_Bhagavatula said:

First of all, it's wehraboo, not how you spelled it. Second, accusing me of being a Wehraboo is pointless. You don't see me saying that German ships are faultless, now do you? Second, my strongest ship is the USS Monaghan, not any of the Germans ( though the Bismarck is a close second )

Every battleship will get disemboweled by other battleships, regardless of whether it's a Friedrich or a Soyuz. Citadel-hit disembowelments are worse, though.

The whole point of the Hydro is as an area-denial tool, similar to the radar on Stalingrad. And every battleship will get HE-spammed bow in. Freddy is no different. And charging in as a battleship without support is suicide, regardless of what may come.

Both the Georgia and the JB are good gun platforms, I will make no mistake with that. However, both ships are far softer than the Friedrich der Grosse, with far less health and alarming amounts of 32mm plating. Even if you were to play all three ships to an inch of textbook-spec play, the Friedrich still lasts longer. The only things that can be said are that the Jean Bart does not need to expose itself to fire all of it's guns, and the Georgia has fast cool-down heals. Friedrich has neither, but to compensate, it's more difficult to damage directly. Another thing is the turret rotation speed. The Jean Bart has a 5*/ second turret traverse, the Georgia also has a 5*/second turret traverse. Friedrich, on the other hand, has a 5.5*/second turret traverse. That traverse speed means that the Friedrich can very quickly change its firing direction on all four turrets and not lose aim ( Jean Bart is also good with this, because of the full-forward arrangement of the turrets, but that means it cannot fire directly backwards, something the Friedrich can do ). Georgia, on the other hand, has difficulty with this because of the high speed and rotation rate when Engine Boost is active.

Lol, good analogy, though I don't exactly agree with the last part. I once triple citadeled a Sinop at a range of around ~12 kilometers. The dispersion curve change really did do something to help it, after all....

 

I also grinded this ship, and I also played this ship. Also, you spelled business wrong ( how!?).

Every ship will get outplayed some way or the other. Musashi can get deleted by shooting at the cheek, for example. 

And yes, team-mates are cowards. Then again, what can we do? It's the endless weekend. 

-Shrayes

Dude I was bantering with the wehraboo statement, but ok.

The problem with the armour is that you get disemboweled by trying to unmask all turrets. And at the same range your opponent will land much more hits than you will.

I have never once deterred dds with hydro, nor been deterred by hydro as a dd, its only good for torps which is nice but nothing like radar. Again I am also complaining about plunging fire, many times I wince in pain after a Iowa for example smashes shells through my deck for a ~12k salvo even if I kite.

Where there is 32mm plating you over pen on those battleships anyway, the point is that the entire hull including the belt is significantly more vulnerable on FDG. Again yes Freddy has health, but other battleships will outplay you at range. It's more difficult to damage???? Hello? A large target with poor armour? Citadels are harder to hit but you will be worn down much quicker than other ships. Other ships are also shorter and lower in the water, making it nigh impossible to do good damage even against full broadsides with this abysmal accuracy. Traverse speed is only a problem with ships that desperately need WD-40 like Queen.E, why is this so pronounced? It is still battleship speed, you won't save yourself from some surprise cruiser or dd on your opposite side.

Wooow, you got an orgasmic salvo at 12km. RnJesus smiles upon us time to time to make this ship slightly less frustrating to play. And Sinop is tier 7, the lowest tier you could be playing against, big whoop.

The main point is that this ship is the worst German BB relative to it's tier, and it get's outplayed everywhere. The one good strategy requires God or the Universe or whatever to bless you with supportive teammates.

But wouldn't you agree with strengthening this ship? Seriously, you can't overlook some of these flaws.

And thanks for the spell checks, good on you

-Himler

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2 hours ago, Nine_Lives_ said:

So if you downtier FDG, what happens to Bismarck?

you’re not wrong of course, playing Bismarck in Ranked Sprint even with only a 10 point captain was an absolute joy compared to a typical FDG random match 

This sort of problem with the German BB line has always been on my mind. The later tiers all feel like they are slightly outmatched. It really feels wrong putting Bismarck in TVII, but the paper strength of these ships would match pretty well, and she wouldn't be the only modern BB with the KGVs.  I always felt that Gnie didn't really belong as she's much more of a battlecruiser, so maybe we could ax her from the main line (though I love her play style), and have her as a refitted Scharnhorst premium. Bayern can then stay put as it fits in well with the other super dreadnoughts. With Ludendorff in TIX I think we would have a much more fun BB line. That's my suggestion anyway, feel free to disagree.

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22 minutes ago, Ad0lf_Himler said:

Dude I was bantering with the wehraboo statement, but ok.

The problem with the armour is that you get disemboweled by trying to unmask all turrets. And at the same range your opponent will land much more hits than you will.

I have never once deterred dds with hydro, nor been deterred by hydro as a dd, its only good for torps which is nice but nothing like radar. Again I am also complaining about plunging fire, many times I wince in pain after a Iowa for example smashes shells through my deck for a ~12k salvo even if I kite.

Where there is 32mm plating you over pen on those battleships anyway, the point is that the entire hull including the belt is significantly more vulnerable on FDG. Again yes Freddy has health, but other battleships will outplay you at range. It's more difficult to damage???? Hello? A large target with poor armour? Citadels are harder to hit but you will be worn down much quicker than other ships. Other ships are also shorter and lower in the water, making it nigh impossible to do good damage even against full broadsides with this abysmal accuracy. Traverse speed is only a problem with ships that desperately need WD-40 like Queen.E, why is this so pronounced? It is still battleship speed, you won't save yourself from some surprise cruiser or dd on your opposite side.

Wooow, you got an orgasmic salvo at 12km. RnJesus smiles upon us time to time to make this ship slightly less frustrating to play. And Sinop is tier 7, the lowest tier you could be playing against, big whoop.

The main point is that this ship is the worst German BB relative to it's tier, and it get's outplayed everywhere. The one good strategy requires God or the Universe or whatever to bless you with supportive teammates.

But wouldn't you agree with strengthening this ship? Seriously, you can't overlook some of these flaws.

And thanks for the spell checks, good on you

-Himler

Dear god, it's like trying to talk to a brick wall. 

Point 1: Same thing happens to all battleships. The trick with that is to force your opponents to do that first.

Point 2: Perhaps I should clarify: the Hydro is used to spot torpedoes and avoid them. If you catch a DD, you either played right, or you've overextended ( or the lolibote has overextended )

Point 3. You think that 12k from an Iowa is nasty?  I've done nearly double that to Iowas, and TRIPLE or even QUADRUPLE to Musashis and Soyuzes, with this ship. I wish I had screenshots, but it's happened, and far more often than you'd expect, at that. Also, that's just superstructure damage you're taking from the Iowa, not actual deck-penetration damage. If it hit the deck, it would just bounce off.

Point 4: 32mm plating everywhere is actually worse than the Friedrich's armor layout. Sure, battleships can damage you at range, but that's your fault for playing so stupid, as you never want to kite with the Friedrich. You want to put yourself in a position where you can support team-mates, not camp at the back-line. 

And believe it or not, the Friedrich is actually one of the most difficult ships in the game to kill, whether it be with HE spam or constant chip damage. The reason why you see so many die so quick is because the people that play them are complete potatoes, who don't know that you don't damacon a single fire or you NEVER. SHOW. BROADSIDE

Point 5: Old story, this one. I did a drive-by on a Soyuz, 3.2 kilometres. Back turrets were facing the wrong way. He drove past, trying to get into cover. BOOM, rear turrets swing around at lightning speed, quadruple citadel, Devastating Strike, High Caliber. See, turret traverse is more useful than you think. 

Point 6: Battleship speed or not, that's what the Hydro is for: so you don't get surprised.

Point 7: "Orgasmic Salvo". Maybe you just had some bad luck with the ship's accuracy. Here's a tip: use ASM1.

Point 8: No ship in the German line is bad, and neither is this ship. The problem is the high skill-floor of the ship. 

As for the faults, I'd just fix the firing angles. That's literally all. 

And thanks for the compliment.

-Shrayes

Edited by Shrayes_Bhagavatula

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21 minutes ago, Shrayes_Bhagavatula said:

You think the Friedrich handles poorly? Unbelievably, the Soyuz and Musashi are even worse. Friedrich rotates at around 3.8* per second, while Musashi turns at around 3.5* and Soyuz at 3.3*

First off, thanks for clarifying the scenario. Second, Friedrich's dispersion isn't that bad. I mean, there's inaccuracy, and then there's shotgun accuracy. Friedrich is inaccurate, yes, but a shotgun? No. That's probably your aim or RNGeebus saying no.

The reason why Kremlin bounces so much AP is because it sits so low in the water ( it's quite literally defying physics, don't ask me how ). Friedrich, on the other hand, has quite a high freeboard. Also, any cruiser with a hint of sense will load AP the moment the side of a battleship is given to feast upon, and the reason why SAP does so much damage is because it's hitting the superstructure, not the upper belt. Brindisi SAP only has 54mm of penetration, where Friedrich has a 145mm upper belt.

 

Slight problem with that theory of yours: Musashi and Yamato waddle along at the same speed as the North Carolina and Massachussets. Also, in-port stats say nothing about the actual turning circle that a ship has; If you want that info, LittleWhiteMouse would be happy to give it to you. Also, the Friedrich's dimensions and proportions change your perception of how the ship handles. It's a Psychology thing. ( and where did the IS-7 come from. This is Warships, not Tanks - Ed )

The Stock-hull grind is rough, I admit, but the "intentional poor balancing" is more of a fault with the H-class design than anything else.  

Izumo is consistent because of that combination of the unique Japanese BB Dispersion curve and 2.0 sigma. Friedrich, on the other hand has the same accuracy parameters as the Iowa, with a slightly lower sigma parameter. 

The acceleration statistics is the same for all battleships across the board. The reason why the Freddy feels sluggish is because it's actually faster than the Izumo, and takes longer to accelerate to full speed and decelerate to a dead stop because of the higher speed. Again, this is a matter of perception. 

Izumo's turret angles are kinda wonky, but they are half decent. As for the reason why the Freddy eats so much superstructure pen damage, it's because of the fact that the Friedrich has so much superstructure. Izumo, on the other hand, has very little superstructure, thus, just overpens. 

Again, a matter of perception.

I'm aware of this. In fact, I have executed such shots before. The German Turtleback armor has weakpoints underneath the turrets that can be exploited, albeit with difficulty.

Also, I hate to be rude, but your grammar is terrible. Did you do this with a phone?

-Shrayes

going back and forth in my comment will do that to the grammar. and english isnt my native language

as for perception, i have to disagree, the ship handles pretty bad, it will over turn, it will take its time to reach some speed, it will take even more time to slow down, it handles like a concrete ship (yes germany had some concrete barge, dont ask me why they tought it was fine idk), i placed the screenshot to show how much degree the #4th turret doesnt take advantage of, sure there is the floatplane rail, but the guns alreally pass over it, its no iowa in design but there is as much degagement for #4 to go meet #3 in degree, and that would help.

also, wrong, acceleration time is not static. it's different for every ship,there is a limit for when the ships engine gain it full horsepower, exemple in video:

venezia struggle to get to half speed, then full engine power kicks in and overmatch Henry 4 by a large margin, we can also see Republic kinda keeping up with georgia, while both speed are pretty far appart. we dont see engine boost for the baguette ship but it doesnt mather, engine power is limited until its not.

And thats what i mean by sluggish, a ship that has full engine power at 25knts and struggle to keep that speed when maneuvering means it will not face 30knts in combat situation as easely as another ship qho has it a 15 (the is-7 in WoT as 70km/h but wont reach over on it own 50, thats the bridge im refering)


for RNGesus, it will bless and it will [edited] up, thats the name of the game, FDG is pretty reliant of RNG with its low barrel count and no special gimmick

for SAP, no bow in will not save you since 32mm section is pretty large, so yea. can try to bait a belt shot, but why would it when ''Herr Vocks Plaza'' is on the ship

for cruiser AP. man, im talking super ap, stalingrad, riga, petrodollar ect, everyone know demoines is a dps monster, but the ap actually bounce even with the normalisation is has, fdg's turret accentuate the problem of those super ap angle to a point where it not even funny how BB will  bounce over and over and those ship will simply laugh at your armor and pen anyway


i personnally like german bb, tirpitz is my most played ship, FDG stock grind is literally a detriment to the team at this point, and not many ship are like that, and thats a shame.

good night o7
 



 

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2 minutes ago, Shrayes_Bhagavatula said:

Dear god, it's like trying to talk to a brick wall. 

Point 1: Same thing happens to all battleships. The trick with that is to force your opponents to do that first.

Point 2: Perhaps I should clarify: the Hydro is used to spot torpedoes and avoid them. If you catch a DD, you either played right, or you've overextended ( or the lolibote has overextended )

Point 3. You think that 12k from an Iowa is nasty?  I've done nearly double that to Iowas, and TRIPLE or even QUADRUPLE to Musashis and Soyuzes, with this ship. I wish I had screenshots, but it's happened, and far more often than you'd expect, at that. Also, that's just superstructure damage you're taking from the Iowa, not actual deck-penetration damage. If it hit the deck, it would just bounce off.

Point 4: 32mm plating everywhere is actually worse than the Friedrich's armor layout. Sure, battleships can damage you at range, but that's your fault for playing so stupid, as you never want to kite with the Friedrich. You want to put yourself in a position where you can support team-mates, not camp at the back-line. 

And believe it or not, the Friedrich is actually one of the most difficult ships in the game to kill, whether it be with HE spam or constant chip damage. The reason why you see so many die so quick is because the people that play them are complete potatoes, who don't know that you don't damacon a single fire or you NEVER. SHOW. BROADSIDE

Point 5: Old story, this one. I did a drive-by on a Soyuz, 3.2 kilometres. Back turrets were facing the wrong way. He drove past, trying to get into cover. BOOM, rear turrets swing around at lightning speed, quadruple citadel, Devastating Strike. See, turret traverse is more useful than you think. 

Point 6: Battleship speed or not, that's what the Hydro is for: so you don't get surprised.

Point 7: "Orgasmic Salvo". Maybe you just had some bad luck with the ship's accuracy. Here's a tip: use ASM1.

Point 8: No ship in the German line is bad, and neither is this ship. It's just difficult to play. 

As for the faults, I'd just fix the firing angles. That's literally all. 

And thanks for the compliment.

-Shrayes

Maybe I have misspoken as well, what the hell do you call it when your kiting forwards? You get smashed trying to return fire forwards, and if you wait they will have already turned away.

Hydro, sure, it's a good thing to have. No objections.

The point is you are a massive target taking lots of damage either bow on or angled correctly. You will not be able to return a proportionally equal amount of damage to your enemy because of the god awful accuracy. I make a point about the 12k not as my worst example but as the average amount of damage I take from plunging fire.

Here's the problem: Your fellow BBs camp the back line, and your cruisers and dds won't follow you into caps or whatnot. My average game goes like this: Steam ahead of the other BBs behind the cruisers and such, get stuck in and do decent work and damage, then notice that all fire has centered on me because my teammates have left. That's if they even follow you into an engagement. And I'm not damaconing fires or showing broadsides you Muppet, unmasking the rear turret is enough to screw you. 

Again another freak example. Does this represent the game play every match?? How many games have you saved because your inaccurate guns could train on target slightly sooner?

The ship has garbage accuracy ASM1 or not, with the smaller amount of guns it should be more accurate. I think this is a balancing issue.

I'm saying this is the worst German BB. The rest are pretty great (other than something like Nassau).

Look, this ship is rigid, un-adaptable. It can only be used one way that gets you killed a lot. Maybe if you train and become an expert with it you eventually become decent, but I think the general consensus is that this ship has no flexibility to it, therefore becoming a chore to use. You argue in this one scenario but many matches players will be caught at long ranges and have to fight, or maybe they charge and begin getting cross fired. I feel that this ship has a lot of potential, but it is disappointing to play in the state it is now. I concede that you clearly can play this ship well with whatever commander skills, upgrades, camo, flags, and strategy you have, but if someone applied the same level of dedication to another battleship, I would bet they would be a much better force on the playing field. The point is that this ship needs to be put where it belongs, or be strenghtened.

Who doesn't like a big scary German BB?

-Himler

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16 minutes ago, devilman275 said:

going back and forth in my comment will do that to the grammar. and english isnt my native language

as for perception, i have to disagree, the ship handles pretty bad, it will over turn, it will take its time to reach some speed, it will take even more time to slow down, it handles like a concrete ship (yes germany had some concrete barge, dont ask me why they tought it was fine idk), i placed the screenshot to show how much degree the #4th turret doesnt take advantage of, sure there is the floatplane rail, but the guns alreally pass over it, its no iowa in design but there is as much degagement for #4 to go meet #3 in degree, and that would help.

also, wrong, acceleration time is not static. it's different for every ship,there is a limit for when the ships engine gain it full horsepower, exemple in video:

venezia struggle to get to half speed, then full engine power kicks in and overmatch Henry 4 by a large margin, we can also see Republic kinda keeping up with georgia, while both speed are pretty far appart. we dont see engine boost for the baguette ship but it doesnt mather, engine power is limited until its not.

And thats what i mean by sluggish, a ship that has full engine power at 25knts and struggle to keep that speed when maneuvering means it will not face 30knts in combat situation as easely as another ship qho has it a 15 (the is-7 in WoT as 70km/h but wont reach over on it own 50, thats the bridge im refering)


for RNGesus, it will bless and it will [edited] up, thats the name of the game, FDG is pretty reliant of RNG with its low barrel count and no special gimmick

for SAP, no bow in will not save you since 32mm section is pretty large, so yea. can try to bait a belt shot, but why would it when ''Herr Vocks Plaza'' is on the ship

for cruiser AP. man, im talking super ap, stalingrad, riga, petrodollar ect, everyone know demoines is a dps monster, but the ap actually bounce even with the normalisation is has, fdg's turret accentuate the problem of those super ap angle to a point where it not even funny how BB will  bounce over and over and those ship will simply laugh at your armor and pen anyway


i personnally like german bb, tirpitz is my most played ship, FDG stock grind is literally a detriment to the team at this point, and not many ship are like that, and thats a shame.

good night o7
 



 

 

7 minutes ago, Ad0lf_Himler said:

Maybe I have misspoken as well, what the hell do you call it when your kiting forwards? You get smashed trying to return fire forwards, and if you wait they will have already turned away.

Hydro, sure, it's a good thing to have. No objections.

The point is you are a massive target taking lots of damage either bow on or angled correctly. You will not be able to return a proportionally equal amount of damage to your enemy because of the god awful accuracy. I make a point about the 12k not as my worst example but as the average amount of damage I take from plunging fire.

Here's the problem: Your fellow BBs camp the back line, and your cruisers and dds won't follow you into caps or whatnot. My average game goes like this: Steam ahead of the other BBs behind the cruisers and such, get stuck in and do decent work and damage, then notice that all fire has centered on me because my teammates have left. That's if they even follow you into an engagement. And I'm not damaconing fires or showing broadsides you Muppet, unmasking the rear turret is enough to screw you. 

Again another freak example. Does this represent the game play every match?? How many games have you saved because your inaccurate guns could train on target slightly sooner?

The ship has garbage accuracy ASM1 or not, with the smaller amount of guns it should be more accurate. I think this is a balancing issue.

I'm saying this is the worst German BB. The rest are pretty great (other than something like Nassau).

Look, this ship is rigid, un-adaptable. It can only be used one way that gets you killed a lot. Maybe if you train and become an expert with it you eventually become decent, but I think the general consensus is that this ship has no flexibility to it, therefore becoming a chore to use. You argue in this one scenario but many matches players will be caught at long ranges and have to fight, or maybe they charge and begin getting cross fired. I feel that this ship has a lot of potential, but it is disappointing to play in the state it is now. I concede that you clearly can play this ship well with whatever commander skills, upgrades, camo, flags, and strategy you have, but if someone applied the same level of dedication to another battleship, I would bet they would be a much better force on the playing field. The point is that this ship needs to be put where it belongs, or be strenghtened.

Who doesn't like a big scary German BB?

-Himler

I can't be arsed to keep doing this back and forth thing. ( Ironically, despite my "younger" age, I'm getting headaches ( Literally, I'm 16, and half of my skull is throbbing))

I'll just cap it off simply then. Have you ever heard the term: Your Mileage may vary? Same thing applies here. Some ships click with people, others don't. I could never click with the Japanese or French cruisers, but the KMS BBs and FR DDs fit me like a glove.

Good conversation, though. It gets lonely for me, sometimes. ( he says, then goes back to a ship-post about the new USN BBs, which has over 120 comments )

And, @devilman275, I apologize for my rudeness, I didn't know that English wasn't your first language. As far as that goes, it ain't half bad. 

o7 to both of you.

:SerB:

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11 minutes ago, Shrayes_Bhagavatula said:

 

I can't be arsed to keep doing this back and forth thing. ( Ironically, despite my "younger" age, I'm getting headaches ( Literally, I'm 16, and half of my skull is throbbing))

I'll just cap it off simply then. Have you ever heard the term: Your Mileage may vary? Same thing applies here. Some ships click with people, others don't. I could never click with the Japanese or French cruisers, but the KMS BBs and FR DDs fit me like a glove.

Good conversation, though. It gets lonely for me, sometimes. ( he says, then goes back to a ship-post about the new USN BBs, which has over 120 comments )

And, @devilman275, I apologize for my rudeness, I didn't know that English wasn't your first language. As far as that goes, it ain't half bad. 

o7 to both of you.

:SerB:

Fair enough, thanks for the opposing perspective, I’m not going to pretend that I was unaware that I may get into a back and forth like this. I got the stamina to do it thought (15), hehe. Personally me and Spee have been a devastating pair, and I’ve slowly been losing touch with some BBs. Well, have fun with this ship.

o7, goodnight good sir.

-Himler

Edited by Ad0lf_Himler

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5 minutes ago, Ad0lf_Himler said:

Fair enough, thanks for the opposing perspective, I’m not going to pretend that I was unaware that I may get into a back and forth like this. I got the stamina to do it thought (15), hehe. Personally me and Spee have been a devastating pair, and I’ve slowly been losing touch with some BBs. Well, have fun with this ship.

o7, goodnight good sir.

-Himler

Thank you.

I hope that you get back in touch with battleships. The Grosser Kurfurst, the Tier X, may not be the most competitive BB at Tier X, but it certainly a bucket-load of fun, and it's definitely worth the grind

And I know, because I have it. 

Welp, good night! o7

:SerB:

Edited by Shrayes_Bhagavatula

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