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shinytrashcan

Why is the IJN DD line split at T5 instead of T8?

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Currently I'm grinding the IJN DD lines and made it to T5/T6, with the goal to go down the gun boat line first. I noticed that just looking at the stats and from how the T5 ships played that they are very similar and I cannot see a difference between the two lines, yet. I know things change with Akizuki, but what is the point of all those other DDs before T8?

If they are all torpedo boats, why have the tech tree split so early. Why is it not split at T8?

I am struggling with these boats really hard because I find the play style of just playing hide & seek and being stomped on by every other DD really boring and frustrating. Hatsuharu especially is just bad in my opinion. I know Shira is considered strong but from what I see it is just another iteration on the torp boat concept. What was the idea of having all these ships in the tech tree if they are essentially the same? What do I miss?

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You have more ship options in the game to pick.

By that logic we couldnt have more than one represetant of the Fletcher-class (Fletcher herself, Chung Mu, Kidd and Black) because all of them would have similar gamestyle. BTW the tech tree IJN DDs are from different classes, but my point is the same.

Also in the tech-tree UI there are exclamation marks inside circles that describes each line... in the case of the IJN sub-branch it shows up between Shiratsuyu and Akizuki.

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2 hours ago, shinytrashcan said:

Currently I'm grinding the IJN DD lines and made it to T5/T6, with the goal to go down the gun boat line first. ...

If they are all torpedo boats, why have the tech tree split so early. Why is it not split at T8?

...What do I miss?

It's not actually a "gun boat" line.  When the IJN DD split happened, it was called the alternate line.  That line happened to have a single ship that played like a gun boat: Akizuki.  Both lines are/were heavily stealth/torpedo focused.  WG added two more Akizuki-like designs much later.

The split occurred because Japan actually had two designs that it iterated on: the Fubuki design and follow ons, and the Hatsuharu that was designed after flaws in the Fubuki's were discovered.

If you want a gun focused line that is more consistent, try the RU or FR lines.

 

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25 minutes ago, ZoomieG said:

It's not actually a "gun boat" line.  When the IJN DD split happened, it was called the alternate line.  That line happened to have a single ship that played like a gun boat: Akizuki.  Both lines are/were heavily stealth/torpedo focused.  WG added two more Akizuki-like designs much later.

The split occurred because Japan actually had two designs that it iterated on: the Fubuki design and follow ons, and the Hatsuharu that was designed after flaws in the Fubuki's were discovered.

If you want a gun focused line that is more consistent, try the RU or FR lines.

 

Incorrect

Hatsuharu-class was designed after WNT dictated that IJN couldn't build their DDs in the tonnage that Fubuki-class was designed at (1680t).

Hatsuharu was designed at 1500t, with only one less gun than Fubuki-class and only losing 1.5 knots top speed... and was heavily a heavily flawed design that needed many fixes.

IJN ship designers were only able to achieve the strengths of the initial design, while fixing hull integrity in Asashio-class (2000t)

Special Type Destroyer: Fubuki-class

Refined Fubuki: Ayanami-class

Refined Ayanami: Akatsuki-class

Lighter design: Hatsuharu-class

Enlarged Hatsuharu: Shiratsuyu-class

Enlarged Shiratsuyu: Asashio-class (to match capabilities of Fubuki-class)

Stretched Asashio: Kagero-class

Refined Kagero: Yugumo-class

New Special Type Destroyer: Shimakaze-class

Fleet AA escort Destroyer: Akizuki-class

Refined Akizuki: Kitakaze-class

 

So no, the IJN DD line "split" makes little sense, aside for the sake of being complete.

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21 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:

Incorrect

My intent with that line was to convey that there were two designs that were iterated on.  I didn't bother to re-look up the details of why, as sea worthiness and Naval treaties aren't really relevant to the game.

Thanks for setting the details straight, but you missed my point.

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Yeh, I think they stuck the Hatsuharu classes in the "gunboat " line just because the design was there and the "special type" had pretty much populated the torp line. And the Akizuki classes were more of a stand alone line. (As stated  the Hatsuharu  was a budget special type.)

The Akizuki was a fleet AA DD while the rest were to be special type fleet torp attack ships.

I think all nations had top heavy stability issues with their DDs, and some with cruisers as well.

Not to mention hull strength issues. Mogami was meant to be about 8,000 tons displacement but ended up at 13 000 tons before all was said and done. The German CLs could not operate in the  Atlantic or North Sea because of hull strength issues. And IJN DDs needed hull work too. I think three lost or severely damaged bows in a pre war storm. 

Trying to build to a rule or law often ends with problems. 

I think WG just looking for a place in the tech tree to put them. I am up to the Hatsuharu myself just to get to Akizuki. 

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OK, thanks for putting this into a bit more context.

I am seriously considering skipping Hatsuharu and maybe Shiratsuyu to get to Akizuki, as I am not really comfortable with them. So far as DDs I played the US line up to Gearing and I am currently enjoying Jutland very much, so I'd guess I am more a gun boat DD player than torps necessarily. I tried to EU line, but only got to T6 for now and got tired of those boats in mid tier. I know the line becomes really strong at T8 onward but for now I am not really interested in those. Have not tried the French or Russian DDs to be honest, maybe I'll do that at some point. For now I also have a few other lines I need to finish, though.

There is still a lot in the game to learn (and grind *sigh*), so I appreciate the help so far.

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4 hours ago, shinytrashcan said:

Currently I'm grinding the IJN DD lines and made it to T5/T6, with the goal to go down the gun boat line first. I noticed that just looking at the stats and from how the T5 ships played that they are very similar and I cannot see a difference between the two lines, yet. I know things change with Akizuki, but what is the point of all those other DDs before T8?

If they are all torpedo boats, why have the tech tree split so early. Why is it not split at T8?

I am struggling with these boats really hard because I find the play style of just playing hide & seek and being stomped on by every other DD really boring and frustrating. Hatsuharu especially is just bad in my opinion. I know Shira is considered strong but from what I see it is just another iteration on the torp boat concept. What was the idea of having all these ships in the tech tree if they are essentially the same? What do I miss?

Read the wikipedia articles on the IJN destroyers. There were multiple design options. At least we get two reflected. The great thing is pretty much all the ships are real (kita and harugumo excepted). 

History begets arts. That's the right way to make this game. 

 

Downside: The T5-7 truly don't feel much different in any way. They should have given them a little more difference. 

And IJN torpedoes are still laughably spread apart and easily detected. 

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The low damage with the EU DDs is annoying if you are used to harder hitting torps. At least that was my experience at Tier 5&6.

The IJN torp boat play is different in that you are planning your positioning for a torp launch and guns as opportunity permits. And if you want full immersion get the Asashio.  But IJN DD guns do work. 

My play with the French is more bang away and torp when able. (Disclaimer, I  play PvE) Don't forget to dodge!

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46 minutes ago, BlailBlerg said:

 

 

Downside: The T5-7 truly don't feel much different in any way. They should have given them a little more difference. 

And IJN torpedoes are still laughably spread apart and easily detected. 

They just change by degree a little better as you go up as the ships are almost the same historically, IJN CAs as well.

To fill in the spread I will overlap two spreads so the second fills in the gaps.

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6 hours ago, shinytrashcan said:

I am struggling with these boats really hard because I find the play style of just playing hide & seek and being stomped on by every other DD really boring and frustrating.

Part of your problem is your perception of the boats.  They are not only torpedo boats. 

Mid-tier IJN DDs have guns that are accurate, shoot flat, and hit hard.  Plan to use those advantages while minimizing the deficiencies of slow reloads and slow turret rotation.

Concealment is a big advantage for IJN DDs and maintaining concealment requires efforts.  Preparing for engagements takes even more effort to anticipate where the enemy may be and position you ship and guns accordingly.

It is very satisfying for a "torp boat" to surprise and drop a couple of salvos on a "gun boat" and then promptly disappear.

Jingles also has a good video on the topic:

IJN DD guns

Edited by C14Alpha

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