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Thunder_Feet

New "Meta" in co-op, or just confirmation bias? AA detection?

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I've started noticing over about the past 2 weeks a trend that really solidified in 4 consecutive battles this morning.

BBs and CL/CAs hang back on the spawn side of caps, and sit there doing nothing while the DDs fight.  They wait until the DD has whittled down the bot ships charging, then shoot full salvo to grab the kill.  In other words, is co-op play style becoming more like randoms?

4 battles, 1 kill.  2 of those 4 I was top dog, once with my one kill, once with zero kills.  the other two I was in the top 5 with no kills, and there were ships lower with multiple kills.  This tells me that the new co-op "meta" for BBs and CL/CAs is to snipe away the low health ships the DDs have brought to low health.  Anyone else notice this kind of thing lately (more than previously) or am I just having a run of strange RNG?  Am I just engaging in a form of confirmation bias?  I honestly am not sure.

Also, in a somewhat related topic, the way I read the dev blog, AA is going to become just like main guns for detection, including the 20 seconds after you go quiet.  If this is the case, then DD play is going to be much, much more difficult and DDs are going to either have to just not use AA or be perma-spotted.  Neither is attractive, IMHO.  This is related because it also is going to shift the co-op "meta".  ("Meta" is in quotes in this post because it's a quick way to describe the prevailing play conventions used in the game).

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1 minute ago, Thunder_Feet said:

I've started noticing over about the past 2 weeks a trend that really solidified in 4 consecutive battles this morning.

BBs and CL/CAs hang back on the spawn side of caps, and sit there doing nothing while the DDs fight.  They wait until the DD has whittled down the bot ships charging, then shoot full salvo to grab the kill.  In other words, is co-op play style becoming more like randoms?

4 battles, 1 kill.  2 of those 4 I was top dog, once with my one kill, once with zero kills.  the other two I was in the top 5 with no kills, and there were ships lower with multiple kills.  This tells me that the new co-op "meta" for BBs and CL/CAs is to snipe away the low health ships the DDs have brought to low health.  Anyone else notice this kind of thing lately (more than previously) or am I just having a run of strange RNG?  Am I just engaging in a form of confirmation bias?  I honestly am not sure.

Also, in a somewhat related topic, the way I read the dev blog, AA is going to become just like main guns for detection, including the 20 seconds after you go quiet.  If this is the case, then DD play is going to be much, much more difficult and DDs are going to either have to just not use AA or be perma-spotted.  Neither is attractive, IMHO.  This is related because it also is going to shift the co-op "meta".  ("Meta" is in quotes in this post because it's a quick way to describe the prevailing play conventions used in the game).

Always happens when there are missions that seem easier to complete in Co-op.  

The randos show up, and it's a mix of three types.

  • Those who go full YOLO and sink in the first couple minutes, often uselessly.
  • Those who immediately put the throttle in reverse, or rush to "romance" an island or rock "from behind".  Also largely useless.  
  • Those who actually bring their skills to bear and adapt to the quirks of the Co-op mode and fighting the bots.

 

 

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I do kind of do this, except for the waiting to shoot part.  Diving in to a cap with an active DD battle going on is a good way to get torped by someone.  But I never hold fire, especially on DDs.  But I try to not fire on near dead and burning (or actively being gunned down).  The few damage points and small percentage for a kill isn't worth the shell.  This goes out the window when my DDs are smoked up, because that :Shima wall of skill won't be aimed at a greed DD.

I will wait on cruisers or BBs if they are turning to give a broadside shot.

I don't know how the AA change is going to work.  Are the bot planes going to just circle and keep the spotting, or are they going to keep making bad attack runs and have spotting be intermittent (with the AA off).

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18 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

Always happens when there are missions that seem easier to complete in Co-op.  

The randos show up, and it's a mix of three types.

  • Those who go full YOLO and sink in the first couple minutes, often uselessly.
  • Those who immediately put the throttle in reverse, or rush to "romance" an island or rock "from behind".  Also largely useless.  
  • Those who actually bring their skills to bear and adapt to the quirks of the Co-op mode and fighting the bots.

Yes.  A lot of "hovering" random players because of constant events....  They seem to get extremely frustrated when a COOP main DD driver is "killing everything before we ever get to shoot"..........toxic rant, negative Karma.  A lot of that lately.  Even, blue-on-blue crap because they "never got the chance to fire...."  I try to encourage them to participate; and, get the "idiot COOP players are ruining the game" nonsense or, let's see how good you are in Randoms crap....  Events cause this.  Stomps are messing with the limited time some Random players have and they read the forum articles from several COOP mains of how fast they accomplish everything;..............and, then come down with all of the wrong skill sets and are on the bottom of the post-battle results page.   They have action anxiety and are stuck in one mode of play with less than reasonable expectations....

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It's human nature OP, they are prioritizing their need to get kills for mission requirements over actually playing as a fair team.

Other threads have been posted in the past by people who play heavy cruisers and battleships complaining about how DD"s rush in and steal all the damage, cap resets and kills.  At some point they figured out that instead of taking 1/3 of the health from a ship at the start, then letting you get the kill while they wait for reload - they would just let you take the first 2/3 of the ships health and poach the last 1/3 for a kill.

Nothing you can do about it and nothing WG is going to concern itself with as far as this particular event is concerned.

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3 minutes ago, Asym_KS said:

Yes.  A lot of "hovering" random players because of constant events....  They seem to get extremely frustrated when a COOP main DD driver is "killing everything before we ever get to shoot"..........toxic rant, negative Karma.  A lot of that lately.  Even, blue-on-blue crap because they "never got the chance to fire...."  I try to encourage them to participate; and, get the "idiot COOP players are ruining the game" nonsense or, let's see how good you are in Randoms crap....  Events cause this.  Stomps are messing with the limited time some Random players have and they read the forum articles from several COOP mains of how fast they accomplish everything;..............and, then come down with all of the wrong skill sets and are on the bottom of the post-battle results page.   They have action anxiety and are stuck in one mode of play with less than reasonable expectations....

You can tell when a really good PVP-main comes to Co-op and takes it seriously, they tend to hoover up the damage done and ending XP like mad, and actually compete with the good PVE-mains for top spot. 

The rest of them, either through refusal to adapt or disdain for the mode, end up looking like fools. 

 

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I love it when people sit back and let my DD do the work.  They don't understand that when a DD does a Torpedo Rush in Co-op, those targets are going down by all the damage done from these short ranged torpedo drops.

Edit:  Unless you're using an IKEA DD.  Their torpedoes suck so bad that the targets will still be afloat despite dropping everything into them :Smile_trollface:

 

A few understand what I'm trying to do with my DDs when I see something like a Georgia trying to Engine Boost past me, then it's a race to go in and get kills, damage :Smile_teethhappy:

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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2 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

I love it when people sit back and let my DD do the work.  They don't understand that when a DD does a Torpedo Rush in Co-op, those targets are going down by all the damage done from these short ranged torpedo drops.

 

A few understand what I'm trying to do with my DDs when I see something like a Georgia trying to Engine Boost past me, then it's a race to go in and get kills, damage :Smile_teethhappy:

Ever since I came to the conclusion it was more fun for me to be a co-op main, I've been playing the "race to get the damage" way, regardless of ship type.  It's one of the reasons I prefer to play DDs - they are faster and get "first blood" opportunities.  Even in a BB, I tend to head for the nearest cap and try to get damage before someone else gets it.  Sometimes it results in a "YOLO death" but more often I end up lasting long enough to be in the top 3 if not top dawg.  I don't care about anyone thinking I'm doing a stupid YOLO because it works for me more often than not, and my stats in co-op bear that out.  Not to mention in 11 months (tomorrow) of playing, I've really ground out a lot of tech tree ships.  And most important of all, brawling is a blast.

I have noticed the "hang back" tendency when directives are there and more Rando mains are playing co-op, but it seems the "kill sniping" (wait for the DD to do the work then take the kill) seems to be more rampant than before.

I wish I knew / understood more about the AA spotting changes that are coming.  It may call for a re-think of my game priorities, that's for sure.

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There's a difference between playing aggressively, and playing YOLO.   YOLO doesn't care if it gets sunk, to the point of being a kamikaze charge.  

Unfortunately, too many Randos define YOLO as "advanced to where the enemy could see you".  And then, sadly, there are the PVE players who define anything short of almost ramming the enemy ships as "passive play".  

So we end up with a lot of misunderstanding based on terminology.  

There's a lot space for assertive but not suicidal play between "YOLO" and "humping a rock". 

 

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2 minutes ago, Thunder_Feet said:

Ever since I came to the conclusion it was more fun for me to be a co-op main, I've been playing the "race to get the damage" way, regardless of ship type.  It's one of the reasons I prefer to play DDs - they are faster and get "first blood" opportunities.  Even in a BB, I tend to head for the nearest cap and try to get damage before someone else gets it.  Sometimes it results in a "YOLO death" but more often I end up lasting long enough to be in the top 3 if not top dawg.  I don't care about anyone thinking I'm doing a stupid YOLO because it works for me more often than not, and my stats in co-op bear that out.  Not to mention in 11 months (tomorrow) of playing, I've really ground out a lot of tech tree ships.  And most important of all, brawling is a blast.

I have noticed the "hang back" tendency when directives are there and more Rando mains are playing co-op, but it seems the "kill sniping" (wait for the DD to do the work then take the kill) seems to be more rampant than before.

I wish I knew / understood more about the AA spotting changes that are coming.  It may call for a re-think of my game priorities, that's for sure.

You have to play aggressively or someone else is going to go in and do the damage and kills.  Personally, I see it as the bot team are MY ships to farm and kill, and my teammates are my enemies trying to take what's mine.  Let those goofballs sit back.  The ones I'm worried about interfering with my goals are the ones playing aggressively.

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47 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

You can tell when a really good PVP-main comes to Co-op and takes it seriously, they tend to hoover up the damage done and ending XP like mad, and actually compete with the good PVE-mains for top spot. 

The rest of them, either through refusal to adapt or disdain for the mode, end up looking like fools. 

 

truth, Coop is where brawling is the name of the game, it has no place for the back line snipers

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11 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

You have to play aggressively or someone else is going to go in and do the damage and kills.  Personally, I see it as the bot team are MY ships to farm and kill, and my teammates are my enemies trying to take what's mine.  Let those goofballs sit back.  The ones I'm worried about interfering with my goals are the ones playing aggressively.

you and me share the same mindset there, the teammates are shields, especially if theyre bot teammates, human teammates ill treat with respect as my shields, bot teammates, i see them as nothing but a shield to keep the enemy occupied, nothing more and never will be anything more in my eyes

Edited by tcbaker777

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The notion that people will sit back out of range, or hide behind islands drives me crazy. If I wanted to do that I would play a fishing game.

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1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

You have to play aggressively or someone else is going to go in and do the damage and kills.  Personally, I see it as the bot team are MY ships to farm and kill, and my teammates are my enemies trying to take what's mine.  Let those goofballs sit back.  The ones I'm worried about interfering with my goals are the ones playing aggressively.

This is the way I see co-op as well, however, maybe I just began to notice that those passive ships are sniping kills more... and since there are kill ribbon requirements in some directives, that probably is why.

I generally don't concern myself so much with kills as I do causing damage, although a dead ship can't hurt you so it's always good to "finish".  But to circle back to what you said, yes, co-op is more like a race to harvest the crop than an actual "us vs. them" battle.

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3 minutes ago, Thunder_Feet said:

This is the way I see co-op as well, however, maybe I just began to notice that those passive ships are sniping kills more... and since there are kill ribbon requirements in some directives, that probably is why.

I generally don't concern myself so much with kills as I do causing damage, although a dead ship can't hurt you so it's always good to "finish".  But to circle back to what you said, yes, co-op is more like a race to harvest the crop than an actual "us vs. them" battle.

Wait until the new long-range thin-hull "battleships" like Champagne and Slava start showing up in volume in Co-op...  

 

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7 hours ago, Asym_KS said:

Yes.  A lot of "hovering" random players because of constant events....  They seem to get extremely frustrated when a COOP main DD driver is "killing everything before we ever get to shoot"..........toxic rant, negative Karma.  A lot of that lately.  Even, blue-on-blue crap because they "never got the chance to fire...."  I try to encourage them to participate; and, get the "idiot COOP players are ruining the game" nonsense or, let's see how good you are in Randoms crap....  Events cause this.  Stomps are messing with the limited time some Random players have and they read the forum articles from several COOP mains of how fast they accomplish everything;..............and, then come down with all of the wrong skill sets and are on the bottom of the post-battle results page.   They have action anxiety and are stuck in one mode of play with less than reasonable expectations....

Coops are entertaining when a random player appoint himself as admiral & starts barking out orders, cap this first, cover this ship, etc. Yes, in most battles coop mains have sunk half of the enemy bots by the time he has finished issuing orders.

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6 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

You have to play aggressively or someone else is going to go in and do the damage and kills.  Personally, I see it as the bot team are MY ships to farm and kill, and my teammates are my enemies trying to take what's mine.  Let those goofballs sit back.  The ones I'm worried about interfering with my goals are the ones playing aggressively.

Yes, coops are races to see who sinks the most the quickest, especially in the mid tiers. Tiers 9 & 10 are not as fast paced but nowhere near as passive as randoms. It is still you snooze you loose. 

 

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9 hours ago, Thunder_Feet said:

4 battles, 1 kill.  2 of those 4 I was top dog, once with my one kill, once with zero kills.  the other two I was in the top 5 with no kills, and there were ships lower with multiple kills.  This tells me that the new co-op "meta" for BBs and CL/CAs is to snipe away the low health ships the DDs have brought to low health.  Anyone else notice this kind of thing lately (more than previously) or am I just having a run of strange RNG?  Am I just engaging in a form of confirmation bias?  I honestly am not sure.

I have noticed the same. I guess its karma for me often getting more than my fair share of kills ;)

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As a DD it's easy to juke PVP players kill securing in the back row. Whittle a ship's health down to 3/4 and wait. All they see is you holding down the left button and fire a salvo assuming you will continue. Their shot either misses or doesn't do enough damage and you grab the kill. Sail away and laugh knowing their time is wasted. Alternatively you can turn as if you are about launch torpedoes.

Kill securing isn't what bothers me, though. I'm more disappointed by the lack of help from BBs. If you are not interesting in fighting then don't bother showing up.

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2 hours ago, Beleaf_ said:

Kill securing isn't what bothers me, though. I'm more disappointed by the lack of help from BBs. If you are not interesting in fighting then don't bother showing up.

This.  Another way of saying what I was getting at.

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Over the last week or so I've lost count of the number of DDs I've seen at the start of a match that are stationary but with moving guns who then throughout the first half of the battle shelter behind the bigger ships. Only rushing out to finish off a low health boat. Annoying but not a a huge deal in games with CVs that can do the spotting but it really is irritating in a game when there is no CV and you in a BB are getting spotting ribbons.

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What I originally posted about just happened again.  I'm in Harugumo, and I end the game with zero kills, but well over 150k damage and number one on the team.  A Des Moines has 3 kills, and sixth place on the team - looking at the detail report, 3 of the ships I did well over 75 percent of the damage were his kills.  Clear evidence (if not proof) that the guy was intentionally sniping my kills.  I won't say stealing because nobody owns a kill until it's secured.  No biggie on an individual basis, but is this what co-op is going to be from now on?  Sure hope not, I enjoy the games where everyone brawls and nobody cherry picks.

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3 hours ago, Efros said:

Over the last week or so I've lost count of the number of DDs I've seen at the start of a match that are stationary but with moving guns who then throughout the first half of the battle shelter behind the bigger ships. Only rushing out to finish off a low health boat. Annoying but not a a huge deal in games with CVs that can do the spotting but it really is irritating in a game when there is no CV and you in a BB are getting spotting ribbons.

I haven't noticed this, but now that you point it out, I'll watch for it.

That's actually how most light cruisers should play, in the ideal situation.  Support ships, often glass cannons.  EDIT:  I don't mean the sniping kills part, I just mean sheltering and supporting fire while the BB tanks, because it can.

Edited by Thunder_Feet
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I tend to target DDs first, regardless of what I'm in.  Especially if there are allied Bot DDs.  Those tend to just go in and suicide the enemy DDs, either with a mutual torpedo rush or just ramming each other.  I make an attempt to kill the enemy DDs before our idiot bot DD can ram so that we have said idiot bot around to take some fire from the enemy cruisers.  I've gotten fairly good at at least landing the first salvo on target with battleship HE and Cruiser HE.  If the allied DD is a player, they will usually not suicide a bot if that bot takes a massive amount of damage from a supporting BB or CA, and will instead shoot or torp the bot and probably will survive the encounter (even possibly getting the kill themselves). 

 

While I would like the kill, I would much rather have the enemy DD dead and our DD still intact.  I can sometimes see players no YOLO to death, but bots.....far too many times have a seen a DD ram when it wasn't needed.  Or even bot cruisers ram when it wasn't needed.  Its like "its cool bot, I can get the broadside off in five seconds, don't ram the cripple.".

Edited by ithekro

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I think some of it, as others mentioned, PvP players trying to complete mission directives. 

I  don't care about the kills all that much as it seems I can finish on top or near it just damaging and support. 

I had a match yesterday where I was trying to take down a DD before it got torps off on a BB I was defending. He got the kill but was glad for the help. I think he was the one to give me a karma point.

It is annoying when I am lined up for a kill shot and have a ship cut in front of me. But that is just how the game goes .

I  do wonder it when I rush on to torp a BB with one of ours engaging it, if he doesn't want help and is just farming secondary hits or not. Say so in chat and I  will back off if possible. 

I  think the way the new AA  works is a DD's surface detection is half what it used to be. But if you fire your AA, detection goes out to your AA range until 20 seconds after you stop firing. 

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